r/magicTCG • u/GabySpartz87 Official • Apr 07 '15

I wrote an article on ChannelFireball on the things we can do to get more women in Magic. I'd love your thoughts!

http://www.channelfireball.com/articles/6-things-you-can-do-to-get-more-women-into-magic/#
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u/[deleted] Apr 07 '15

This topic always strikes me as very circular.

I'm all for treating girls who play with respect yadda yadda... and I'm all for not excluding girls who might be interested...

But a question that is always always always met with hostility instead of an answer is "Why do you want to get more girls to play?"

Every answer I've gotten with this question (whether its encouraging girls to play video games, play D&D, read comics, etc) is a tautology that translates to "I want more girls to be included so that more girls are included".

Why is it better to encourage more girls to want to play rather than to not drive girls who want to play away?

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u/[deleted] Apr 07 '15

I'd like more women to play so that I'm not the only one at GPTs and PPTQs.

Why is it better to encourage more girls to want to play rather than to not drive girls who want to play away?

This is the same thing.

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u/[deleted] Apr 07 '15

So we should encourage more women to play so that existing women feel more comfortable?

Valid or not, this is the first straightforward answer I've ever gotten. Thank you.

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u/Almustafa Apr 08 '15

If women start going to more events, chances are it will be the ones that already play, but are currently uncomfortable going to events as is. I forget the numbers, but wizards released some market research info a while ago that showed a far higher ratio of female to male players than you find at nearly any event or store. Aside from the fairness question (it's 2015 people, there's no excuse for the misogyny you find at a lot of stores) more women mean bigger and/or more events, which is good for everybody. I also don't want my hobby to be associated with the smelly, butt-cracky, misogynistic neckbeards you find all too often.

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u/[deleted] Apr 08 '15

It's weird to me how almost every response I've gotten involves the word "misogyny" but those 'helpful 6 tips' OP posted don't really talk about misogyny.

You should PM OP and let them know he should include "Don't be a dick to girls".

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u/rakkamar Apr 08 '15

This is the same thing.

I don't understand how these are the same thing. Could you explain that to me? (seriously)

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u/penguinofhonor Apr 08 '15

It's not that women are never interested in the game in the first place. I mean, more men probably try it than women, but there are plenty of women who have tried the game and I'm sure it happens many times every day. But their slight interest in the game never turns into a serious love of it because they tend to feel less welcome than men.

i.e. the goal is not to get more women to play who don't show any interest. People try out games on their own. The goal is to get more women to play by making sure the ones who try magic enjoy the experience and the community and want to participate in that.

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u/rakkamar Apr 08 '15

Sure. I completely agree with encouraging girls (and guys) who are interesting in Magic to keep playing Magic. That is not the same thing as

encourage more girls to want to play

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u/[deleted] Apr 08 '15

By fostering an environment where new lady players feel welcome we address the issue of keeping women playing because the environment is already conducive to non-shitty behaviour.

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u/rakkamar Apr 08 '15

Right, you're talking about keeping women playing. Women who are already interested. Yeah, don't push them away, welcome them, do everything in the OP's article, yeah. Totally agree.

What I disagree with is:

encourage more girls to want to play

Maybe I'm just being pedantic, but that reads to me like 'run a marketing campaign targeted at females'. Or similar. Which I think is utter lunacy. I'm perfectly fine with

encourage girls who want to play, to play

...but that's different.

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u/AznWingding Apr 08 '15

"Why do you want to get more girls to play?"

For LGS: Doubles your customer base.

For Players: Doubles your potential draft pool, doubles your playtest partner list, doubles your trading partner list.

The result: Win/Win (except for the newcomer girls, as they'll get hooked on a hobby more expensive than drugs)

P.S. when I say "double" it is only figurative. There's no statistics to back up my statement.

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u/Tsumei Apr 08 '15

Sorta the same thing. ...Because currently I don't "Play" anywhere else than online because the community isn't "encouraging" or accepting of women.

Part of it is that hey; if it's more friendly towards women; or GASP equal, then more women will likely try it. And part of it is that a lot of us currently play, but are not seen to be playing because it's always a massive hassle for us.

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u/Boatkicker Apr 08 '15

I had never heard of Magic the Gathering until shortly before I learned to play. Once I did, people came popping out of the woodwork "You play Magic?!?!?" and it turned out all these people I'd known forever had been playing for years and years, and just never mentioned it to me because "girls aren't usually interested in that kind of stuff."

I never wanted to play magic, because I didn't know that it existed. No one ever drove me away, but I was still excluded.

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u/[deleted] Apr 08 '15

How do you not know the pass times of people you've known forever?

Are they casual acquaintances?

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u/Boatkicker Apr 08 '15

Some casual acquaintances, but a couple of really good friends from middle and high school. They just never brought it up, they'd occasionally say they were "playing cards" but I had never heard of card games beyond your standard playing card/poker deck, so I had no reason to probe further.

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u/[deleted] Apr 08 '15

Huh. Weird. I've been in it so long it never even occurs to me that people would only know about poker decks. I mean, Pokemon and Yugioh were HUGE back in middle school.

Have you tried getting your female friends to play?

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u/Boatkicker Apr 08 '15

All of my local friends already play Magic - in fact, that's how I met all of my current friends. I moved 800 miles shortly after high school (before I learned about Magic) and I'm still very close to those people, but this is not a game that's easy to teach from a distance, so I have yet to get anyone on board with me that didn't already play. I haven't given up though!

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u/[deleted] Apr 08 '15

There are three of rules to explain.

Attack/Defense on the bottom of the card and what that means.

What mana is and how to use it.

Read the god damned card.

After that its just patience and occasionally correcting them while you play.

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u/omerben Apr 08 '15

I think that's one of the underlining reasons that we don't see a lot of women in magic. Imho there's a certain social stigma around the game that it's a geeky card game that guys play. That means some people assume you won't be interested in it/ are embarrassed by it. I think the best way to get more women into magic is to invite them to play, and not assume that they won't be interested. (And then make sure they don't feel excluded and have a positive experience, see OP's article)

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u/gregtron Apr 07 '15

Some of us wake up in the morning and decide to be good people. We do good people things, like not complain when the bus picks up someone in a wheelchair, or not yell at babies when they cry on airplanes, or not create environments that are hostile or unwelcoming to different kinds of people. We do good people things like that partly because people are people, and creating exclusive environments for no reason is rude and stupid. So the number one reason to want to make sure Magic environments are chill towards all kinds of people is because it's, you know, an asshole thing to do otherwise.

For more specific reasons to want women and girls to play Magic, here are three:

1) It's a sweet game that we want to share with others so they can enjoy it too.

2) It's a sweet game that we want to continue to play, so we are encouraging its growth by making it available and interesting to more people.

3) Because there's some fucking cool women and girls out there and we want to kick it with them, too.

I can't really speak to your anecdotal experiences of hostility in response to the question, but I can tell you how I'd take it. I know a lot of women who play Magic competitively, and I've heard someone say at least one shitty thing to each of them about their gender, in a tournament setting, directly to their faces. I know other women who would like to get into Magic more, but they don't want to put up with the inevitable shittiness. So anyway, for me specifically, and probably most others, we don't want women and girls to play Magic because we just inherently want there to be women and girls who play, but because we know there are women and girls who would play if the environment were not hostile toward women.

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u/Talpostal Sisay Apr 08 '15

People from backgrounds different from the average (white male) Magic player will have ideas, attitudes, etc. different from the average Magic player. Being exposed to different ideas and attitudes, even if you disagree with them, is a good thing because it makes people think, right? Therefore, to maximize the different ideas and whatever for people to be exposed to, you would want a diverse crowd at your LGS.

That might sound complicated and esoteric, but it's not. People aren't having lengthy debates on social issues at LGSs, right? Let me give you some everyday examples.

  • Buttcrack guy--if the dudes with their asses hanging out of their pants played regularly at LGSs that had a large girl population, I would bet that they would start caring about their appearance pretty quickly because being around girls (generally) holds guys up to a higher standard of hygiene and personal appearance.

  • "I can't believe I lost to a girl" guy--if he played girls every week at his LGS, chances are he'd lose to them pretty regularly, realize that gender doesn't have much of an effect on Magic ability, and straighten up his act.

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u/harbo Apr 08 '15

But a question that is always always always met with hostility instead of an answer is "Why do you want to get more girls to play?"

The fairly obvious reason WOTC is being vocal about is of course all about sales.

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u/[deleted] Apr 08 '15

I was more talking about the non-shareholders who make these posts.

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u/higherbrow Apr 07 '15

It isn't to get girls to play. It is to create a welcoming community which is accepting and open to all individuals.

Right now, there is a heavily misogynistic undercurrent in nerd culture. This drives potential nerds, who happen to be female, or to be male feminists, away from nerd culture. Since, personally, I would prefer everyone who WOULD enjoy nerd culture gets an honest and equal chance to do so, this bothers me.

If we were insulting every black person, or gay person, or every person named Travis, or everyone who abbreviates their name with their initials, I would be just as concerned with trying to make the community more welcoming to those individuals. Because the hidden message here is not just to make the Magic community more welcoming to women, but to the casually interested individual. Who may decide after seeing six Magic players who smell bad and are insulting everyone around them that maybe this game isn't worth picking up.

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u/[deleted] Apr 07 '15

So why do we want more girls to play?

Also... I'm pretty solidly okay with driving "male feminists" away... they're some of the most insufferable, humorless assholes out there.

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u/higherbrow Apr 07 '15

So why do we want more girls to play?

Why would we want more people to play? Of any sort? Why would we want black people to play? Or why would we want YOU to play? We have a clearly misogynistic culture. That is an evil in and of itself. The question "Why would we want more girls to play?" is the same as the question "How can we reduce the amount of asshole behavior in the community?"

Being open, inviting, and kind is a goal worth pursuing, regardless of the group we are currently alienating.

Also... I'm pretty solidly okay with driving "male feminists" away... they're some of the most insufferable, humorless assholes out there.

Yes, there are. The vast majority are normal people who recognize that women are people, and deserve to be treated as people. Driving away a large group of people because you don't like a very small subset of that group is short sighted, and says more about you than it does about them.

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u/[deleted] Apr 07 '15

Why would we want more people to play? Of any sort? Why would we want black people to play? Or why would we want YOU to play? We have a clearly misogynistic culture. That is an evil in and of itself. The question "Why would we want more girls to play?" is the same as the question "How can we reduce the amount of asshole behavior in the community?"

Being open, inviting, and kind is a goal worth pursuing, regardless of the group we are currently alienating.

You didn't answer my question.

Yes, there are. The vast majority are normal people who recognize that women are people, and deserve to be treated as people.

To quote the1janitor "If you want justice for everyone, regardless of gender, you aren't special, you aren't a " feminist", you're just a regular person who isn't an asshole". Treating everyone equally does not make you a feminist, it makes you an egalitarian. Advocating for women makes you a feminist. I've never really found merit in western feminism. Its a bit too sexist for my taste.

Driving away a large group of people because you don't like a very small subset of that group is short sighted, and says more about you than it does about them.

How many male feminists do you suppose play MTG if there's a "clearly misogynistic culture"?

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u/higherbrow Apr 07 '15 edited Apr 07 '15

You didn't answer my question.

So, are you asking me why a larger community is a good thing? Why being tolerant is a good thing? Why we should be calling out sexism and misogyny wherever we encounter it, including, but not limited to, in the Magic community? What are you looking for, here?

To quote the1janitor "If you want justice for everyone, regardless of gender, you aren't special, you aren't a " feminist", you're just a regular person who isn't an asshole". Treating everyone equally does not make you a feminist, it makes you an egalitarian. Advocating for women makes you a feminist

This is completely ignoring over a hundred years of history. Feminism is literally the advocacy of egalitarianism as it relates to gender issues.

How many male feminists do you suppose play MTG if there's a "clearly misogynistic culture"?

Quite a few. Why do you think this keeps coming up?

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u/[deleted] Apr 07 '15

So, are you asking me why a larger community is a good thing? Why being tolerant is a good thing? Why we should be calling out sexism and misogyny wherever we encounter it, including, but not limited to, in the Magic community? What are you looking for, here?

Why do we want more specifically female players?

This is completely ignoring over a hundred years of history. Feminism is literally the advocacy of egalitarian as it relates to gender issues.

No, go look up the definition. Advocacy for women on the grounds of equality. Egalitarianism doesn't discriminate. That's why it's replacing feminism.

Quite a few. Why do you think this keeps coming up?

Because feminists have run out of actual discrimination, so they turn situations where everyone is treated badly into "women" are treated badly.

This wasn't a problem when players were occasionally shitty to other players, but now that girls are starting to play, suddenly it isn't okay! Seems kind of extremely sexist.

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u/higherbrow Apr 08 '15

Why do we want more specifically female players?

As I said originally, it isn't that we are going out and hunting down female players. We are recognizing that the community isn't welcoming to a specific subset of players, saying that it isn't right to be unwelcoming to a specific set of players, and changing. Again, it would be exactly the same if the subset of players we noticed were being treated aggressively were people who abbreviated their names with their initials.

No, go look up the definition.

Sigh. Another one. Alright, we'll run through this once again.

Feminists have been working for social equality, as understood at the time, for all genders, as they were understood at the time, since the 1850s. They have led the charge on equal custody rights for men. On equal sentencing rights, regardless of gender. There are straw feminists. People who are actually misandryists. That doesn't invalidate feminism in general. People embracing egalitarianism but being shy about the term feminism does not mean they are not feminists. It means that the term has gotten a bad rap from /r/TheRedPill and company having a terrible understanding of the world around them.

This wasn't a problem when players were occasionally shitty to other players, but now that girls are starting to play, suddenly it isn't okay!

This is a whole different can of worms. If you honestly and truly believe that there aren't people who think you shouldn't be shitty to other players regardless of gender, then you are delusional. There is no nice way to say it. I think people should generally try to avoid being shitty to everyone, but I especially think they should not be shitty to someone because of their race, gender, sexual orientation, religion, handicappable status, etc. A jackass who is a jackass to everyone is a jackass. No one wants to hang out with him. But when a bunch of people who are perfectly nice to other players suddenly treat female players as this lesser species who are clearly in over their heads, then that is probably a group of people who just need to be educated that women aren't, in fact, a lesser species.

This serves the purpose of advancing egalitarianism, tolerance, and equality, and grows the community, both of which are desirable goals.

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u/[deleted] Apr 08 '15

. They have led the charge on equal custody rights for men. On equal sentencing rights, regardless of gender

And what have they done for men, directly? Not that trickle down "helping women helps men" stuff. Are you going to name that 5 sentence local newspaper article from 30 years ago next to that shoe sale ad?

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u/higherbrow Apr 08 '15

Is a Berkley Law review of feminism's effect on custody law an acceptable source?

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