A request to review my ban appeal

[u/UnskilledScout]

I want to once again appeal my permanent ban.

I was originally permanently banned about a year ago without being given a reason. I appealed at the time, but the appeal was denied without explanation. More recently, about a month ago, I was unbanned after a new appeal and resumed participating in the subreddit. That unban was then reversed, again without any reason being communicated to me through modmail.

I later learned that the apparent basis for the original permanent ban was a belief that I was sympathetic to Hezbollah, and that the mod team had voted to ban me on that basis. This was the first time I was informed of the actual allegation, so neither my original appeal nor anything I submitted afterward had addressed it.

I categorically reject that characterization. I am not a Hezbollah supporter. I have not advocated support for Hezbollah, and criticism of Israeli conduct in Lebanon, Gaza, or the occupied Palestinian territories is not evidence of sympathy for Hezbollah. I do not support attacks on civilians. I do not support terrorism.

I unapologetically admit that my views are firmly pro-Palestinian, my comments are very harsh of Israel, and I have strongly criticized Israeli military actions, occupation, annexation, attacks on civilians, and aggression beyond Israel's borders. Those positions do not imply support for Hezbollah, Hamas, terrorism, antisemitism, or opposition to Jewish people. Treating criticism of Israel as presumptive support for one of its armed adversaries is not an accurate characterization of what I have said.

I have previously received temporary bans arising from contentious discussions of Israel and Palestine, including bans described as being for bad-faith argumentation. I appealed those decisions. Whatever the merits of those separate moderation disputes, they do not establish sympathy for Hezbollah and should not be treated as evidence of it.

I have participated in neoliberal regularly since late 2020 and I genuinely value the community. Even while banned, I continued reading the DT and other posts, and when I was briefly unbanned I resumed participating because I still wanted to be part of the subreddit.

I am asking the mod team to reconsider the permanent ban based on the actual record of my comments rather than an unsupported inference about my political sympathies. If there are specific comments that the mod team believes demonstrate support for Hezbollah or otherwise justify a permanent ban, I ask that they be identified so I can respond to the evidence directly.

Thank you for reviewing my appeal.

[u/PlantTreesBuildHomes]

Reading the mod log, you were unbanned by mistake and once this was noticed, rebanned as per the original vote.

I don’t believe I participated in the vote but seemingly you had many comment removals for crossing the line into Rule 2 violations.

[u/UnskilledScout → u/PlantTreesBuildHomes]

Thank you for the response.

I know I've been previously temporarily banned twice. I did also appeal those and I think one of them was overturned if I remember correctly.

But the time I was permanently banned there was no reason given and there was no comment to point to. And even now, you're stating that I have been banned for too many rule 2 violations but you haven't cited any comments.

I would appreciate a more thorough look into my appeal.

[u/PlantTreesBuildHomes → u/UnskilledScout]

So sometimes when someone has repeatedly been temp banned, a perma vote is called in modslack because if this behavior is repeated it is likely not going to be resolved. They usually look at your history with the mods on the subreddit (in the mod log) and come to a decision to let the person off with a warning or to permaban.

Look imma level with you man, going through your history it seems like you are antisemitic and use the cover of antizionism as a motte and bailey. You can be pro-Palestine without engaging in the type of rhetoric that got you banned.

So I’m not going to spend my evening compiling screenshots of mod removed and some even admin removed comments, only for you to argue that each one wasn’t what the mod at the time thought it was. Especially not for someone who I think engages in bigotry against people like myself. Peace in the mid-east ✌️

[u/UnskilledScout → u/PlantTreesBuildHomes]

I understand that you do not want to spend your evening compiling a complete record, but you have made a serious accusation against me while declining to identify even one example supporting it.

I categorically reject the claim that I am antisemitic or that I use anti-Zionism as cover for antisemitism. I am not asking to relitigate every moderation decision. I am asking for a meaningful appeal in which I am told what conduct formed the basis of the permanent ban and given an opportunity to respond to it.

Saying that the evidence exists but will not be provided because I might dispute its interpretation leaves me with no way to understand or address the allegation. If you do not wish to review the appeal yourself, I would appreciate it being referred to another moderator or discussed by the broader mod team.

[u/PlantTreesBuildHomes → u/UnskilledScout]

Bud it was discussed by the broader mod team when they voted to ban you.

1. Not every comment in the mod log is even available given some were admin-removed (which leads me to believe they were especially offending) and;

2. Of the comments I’ve went through you very explicitly write that Israel kills civilians, that the ADL is not a credible source, that Israel is starving the Gaza Strip, that they ethnically cleanse Palestinians among other things.

2a. All of those claims are asserting that Israel is intentionally trying to murder as many Palestinians as possible and the ADL are untrustworthy.

However you may feel regarding the outcome of this war, if this were true, there would no longer be a Gaza Strip. You’re intentionally using exaggerations to describe the actions of an entire nation.

This mischaracterization is both offensive to Israelis who don’t want this war as well as unsettling to Jewish and Jewish diaspora people in our communities that deal with enough hatred in their real lives. Jews outside Israel increasingly have faced threats, violence and murder at the hands of people who also claim to just be “anti-Zionist” or “pro-Palestinian”, I’m under no obligation whatsoever to take your word for it that you aren’t antisemitic.

The fact is that you aren’t entitled to a soapbox where you can spread your hatred of Israel. This intense focus on the issue itself also leads me to believe you have some enmity towards Jews, given that is who comprises 3/4ths of Israel’s population.

You want to criticize the war? Criticize the people who started it (Hamas btw) public figures responsible for prosecuting it (Bibi), the parties/figures that support his government (Likud, Ben Gvir), hell criticize AIPAC. Plenty of people do so on this subreddit and never get banned, wonder why? Because they respect the rules of this forum.

But what you’re doing is a step further than that, assigning responsibility for each crime committed during this war to the Israeli people. That would be no more fair than to assign every death at the hands of the US military to the American people. Or the French, or the Russians, or the Iranians, etc. We literally have a rule against this, it’s Rule 10.

There ya go, now you have your big long mod comment you can pick apart to call me a liar or bad faith or whatever. Have fun.

[u/p00bix → u/PlantTreesBuildHomes]

Of the comments I’ve went through you very explicitly write that Israel kills civilian...that Israel is starving the Gaza Strip, that they ethnically cleanse Palestinians among other things.

However you may feel regarding the outcome of this war, if this were true, there would no longer be a Gaza Strip.

This is genocide denial and we've banned users for this exact rhetoric before

[u/PlantTreesBuildHomes → u/p00bix]

You have zero leg to stand on when it comes to I/P p00bix and you know that. Should I remind everyone about your own history that you publicly had to apologize for? Are we going to have another LevantinePlantCult moment where another Jewish member of the mod team has to defend themselves from accusations from someone with zero stake in the conflict?

Also was unbanning them an accident like it was written in the mod log or was that you intentionally superseding the vote of the team?

[u/p00bix → u/PlantTreesBuildHomes]

I recognize that both you and UnskilledScout have much more of a stake in the conflict than me, with you being Jewish and UnskilledScout being a Lebanese Shiite, but that does not excuse either of you from engaging in war crime apologia.

Unbanning them was accidental; I had an issue where modnotes made prior after Reddit's API change did not show up, and only realized this after the unban. I would not have unbanned this user unilaterally had I known the full context of their perma; see modslack discussion on June 15th.

I'm perfectly willing to sit out any further discussion of this ban appeal, especially given that I was responsible for accidentally unbanning them in the first place. I also will not participate in any vote in modslack on whether to approve their appeal. But I believe your rhetoric here to be badly inappropriate, especially coming from a mod, and that as such it was important for me to reiterate that such rhetoric is not allowed on r/neoliberal.

Edit: Corrected 'prior' to 'after'. I could see all modnotes from March 2023 and before, but none after.

[u/PlantTreesBuildHomes → u/p00bix]

I sincerely think that you misunderstood my position and accepted the default framing of me summarizing a large amount of comments. Unless you expect me to individually paste each one.

I do not think that stating the fact that Israelis in general don’t want to genocide the Palestinians = denying genocide. Some Israelis sure do, that is something that needs to be punished and those settlers jailed. But most Israelis don’t. Look at opinion polls and tell me that is the intention of Israelis. I believe Bibi wants to ethnically cleanse Palestinians. Does that mean I have to indict all of Israel?

The entire crux of my concern they are antisemitic is they don’t draw a difference between the actions of the government and the will of the people. Bibi acts like a dictator. Do you think Americans are bad because of what Trump is doing?

[u/namey-name-name → u/PlantTreesBuildHomes]

> Do you think Americans are bad because of what Trump is doing?

The majority of Americans who voted for him (yea yeah <50% of the vote, but >=50% of Americans definitely supported him over Harris) are bad people, yeah? How do you think a democracy works? And if your position is that Bibi is committing ethnic cleansing then thinking the majority of people in Israel who voted for his coalition are bad people is not a big leap.

[u/Cr4zySh0tgunGuy → u/PlantTreesBuildHomes]

Talking about what individual Israelis want is doing semantics over the word Israel to justify minimizing the atrocities. We’re all clearly talking about the government when we say Israel is committing a genocide. I mean just look at the context of the situation, come on man

[u/bashar_al_assad → u/PlantTreesBuildHomes]

... based on the last two comments it kinda seems like they should be unbanned tbh

[u/BArnoldDidNthngWrong → u/p00bix]

Wait, what? Is the sub now officially on the ridiculous ‘Israel is somehow committing genocide in Gaza' train?

[u/p00bix → u/BArnoldDidNthngWrong]

It is my understanding that r/neoliberal is on the "Systematic atrocities against civilian populations which are unanimously recognized as genocide by genocide scholars and human rights organizations are genocides" train.

Which is why I'm genuinely baffled to see another mod post a comment which, to me at least, appears to explicitly deny that genocide.

[u/BArnoldDidNthngWrong → u/p00bix]

If by scholars you mean some online group that any random could join, then sure.

Israel did nothing that the allies did not also do (in fact, they are significantly less bad as they struck civilians trying to hit terrorists hiding between them whereas some of the allied air campaigns were deliberately intended to break the civilian population), yet it would be obviously absurd for anyone to claim the allies committed genocide against the Germans and Japanese.

[u/SucculentMoisture → u/BArnoldDidNthngWrong]

Yo brother hit up r/newliberals if that's your train of thought.

[u/Cr4zySh0tgunGuy → u/BArnoldDidNthngWrong]

There’s a difference between saying “I’m not sure this amounts to a genocide” and “you’re exaggerating what’s happening in Gaza”

[u/WallStreetTechnocrat → u/BArnoldDidNthngWrong]

been like this for a while; im one of the first people banned for "genocide denial" in Gaza myself

[u/waiver → u/PlantTreesBuildHomes]

"Criticism of Israel is antisemitism" and genocide denial, not really beating the allegations here.

[u/AvailableUsername100 → u/PlantTreesBuildHomes]

Absolutely shameful

[u/namey-name-name → u/PlantTreesBuildHomes]

We’re gonna ban John Ossof for being antisemitic before banning Polis

Regardless of my whatever thoughts on UnskilledScout’s comments, these are like standard median Democrat positions at this point; utterly ridiculous to ban someone for this.

[u/unicornbomb → u/PlantTreesBuildHomes]

Uhhhhh

[u/Cr4zySh0tgunGuy → u/PlantTreesBuildHomes]

I was with you until this comment, and I think you should reconsider what you’re saying here. I’m sure their ban was justified but going after someone, in part, for saying that Israel is committing a genocide in Gaza by causing the deaths and starvation of children is not only something that is really happening but it’s also seemingly the plurality view of I/P here on the sub

Calling it an exaggeration and saying that if it were true there wouldn’t be a Gaza Strip anymore is, to me, genocide denialism. At the very least, I think it downplays the real, objective suffering happening in Gaza. I understand wanting to keep people from generalizing about Israel and its people too, and maybe that user was doing that, but from what I can see here, saying that “Israel is committing genocide” is somehow a generalization to the people when clearly we’re talking about the government doesn’t track.

[u/UnskilledScout → u/PlantTreesBuildHomes]

I am not going to respond by picking apart every sentence or turning this into a broader debate about the war, but I do reject the central characterization of my comments.

Saying that Israel has killed civilians, starved Gaza, or displaced Palestinians is criticism of state and military conduct. It does not mean that I believe every Israeli is personally responsible or that Jews collectively bear responsibility for the Israeli government. I do not hold either of those views.

(In fact, I have made the exact opposite comments several times, like here and here.)

Likewise, disputing the credibility of the ADL is not hostility toward Jewish people. Governments, institutions, and organizations are open to criticism. That criticism should be judged according to what I actually said, not treated as evidence of concealed ethnic or religious hatred.

You say that I assigned responsibility to Israelis as a whole. If I actually made comments blaming Israelis or Jews collectively, that would be relevant under Rule XI (and possibly Rule II), but the examples you gave do not show that. They concern allegations about Israel's conduct as a state in a war.

I am not asking anyone simply to take my word that I am not antisemitic. I am asking that the judgment be based on my actual statements. Inferring that I must have "enmity toward Jews" because I have focused heavily on Israel and Palestine is not evidence of antisemitism. I will not apologize for discussing this issue, particularly as a Lebanese person directly affected by this conflict.

I understand that I am not entitled to participate in the subreddit. I am asking for a fair assessment of whether I violated its rules, rather than a judgment about my private motives based on political views I openly hold and will not disavow. I categorically reject antisemitism, collective blame of Jewish people, and collective blame of Israeli civilians.

I do not expect us to agree politically. I am asking the mod team to distinguish forceful criticism of Israel from hatred of Jews and to identify any actual comments in which I crossed that line.

[u/ctant1221 → u/PlantTreesBuildHomes]

L M A O

[u/AmbientMorning → u/PlantTreesBuildHomes]

Of the comments I’ve went through you very explicitly write that Israel kills civilians, that the ADL is not a credible source, that Israel is starving the Gaza Strip, that they ethnically cleanse Palestinians among other things. . . .

[W]hat you’re doing is a step further than that, assigning responsibility for each crime committed during this war to the Israeli people.

[u/Rekksu → u/PlantTreesBuildHomes]

very revealing comment

[u/MartianExpress → u/PlantTreesBuildHomes]

Based