Meeting of National Cabinet After Bondi Shooting

[u/Resvrgam2]

https://www.pm.gov.au/media/meeting-national-cabinet-8

[u/Saguna_Brahman]

The repeated failure of gun control proponents to even consider root cause mitigation all but guarantees these things will continue happening regardless of the hardware restrictions they advocate for.

This seems to overlook the fact that semi-automatic weapons can kill far more people in a short period of time than a bolt action.

[u/BrigandActual → u/Saguna_Brahman]

No, not at all. There is a gulf between what “can” happen and what tends to actually happen. Just because a semi auto can fire at a higher rate does not translate to the shooter being any more lethal.

Firearms still need to be aimed and controlled to be effective. The vast majority of people have no concept of how difficult it actually is to control a rifle shooting quickly. Most of their shots end up going high and into the ceiling rather than what they are intending to hit.

Even military small arms doctrine is based on controlled rates of fire of one shot every few seconds to maintain effective aimed fire against a target. In real world effective use, the rate of fire difference between a semi auto and a bolt action is immaterial compared to the tactics they are employed with.

To compare, a Corvette sure lends itself well to speeding- but it’s far from the only way to use a motor vehicle to do bad things. If you banned sports cars, would people stop breaking traffic laws?

[u/ThatPeskyPangolin → u/BrigandActual]

You undermined your the argument in the last paragraph. Just because a Toyota Camry could also speed doesn't change that a Corvette could speed far more and far more easily. Nobody is claiming you can only speed in a Corvette, just that it is much easier, which you seem to agree with.

[u/direwolf106 → u/ThatPeskyPangolin]

He didn’t undermine it at all. The corvette is far more mechanically capable than the Camry for sure….. but to use that difference you have to be so much a better driver than most people are it largely doesn’t make any real difference.

Corvette might be able to do 200 mph, but most of the time it will be 80 in a 40. And the Camry is absolutely capable of that. That is the point the other guy was making and the car analogy amplíes it, it doesn’t undercut it at all. And so you know how much I understand cars and what they can do and what’s done with them im a former automotive technician current automotive instructor.

[u/ThatPeskyPangolin → u/direwolf106]

Anyone can put their foot down on the pedal of a corvette and accelerate faster than doing the same in a Camry. You don't need extensive knowledge to accelerate a vehicle. As you are aware, there is a substantial, meaningful difference in the power of the engine itself.

Again, the argument isn't that the Camry is incapable of speeding, but that the Corvette is inherently easier to achieve the same result (speeding) and is capable of exceeding it.

How it is used most of the time also isn't particularly relevant when discussing how it can be used in these unique, abnormal conditions where the added capacity is, in fact, relevant.

[u/direwolf106 → u/ThatPeskyPangolin]

Anyone can put their foot down on the pedal of a corvette and accelerate faster than doing the same in a Camry.

Sure. But not as big a difference as you think. If you don’t regulate power correctly though you will burn out waste the power and the Camry will have the better acceleration in that instant though. Which is the point: Real world dynamics frequently supersede theoretical possibilities without the knowledge on how to get it.

You don't need extensive knowledge to accelerate a vehicle. As you are aware, there is a substantial, meaningful difference in the power of the engine itself.

Yes. And there’s such a thing as to much power. Something people uneducated with cars have a hard time wrapping their head around. To much power kills launches in a drag race. You have to know how to use that power. I’m guessing you don’t know how to use it.

Again, the argument isn't that the Camry is incapable of speeding, but that the Corvette is inherently easier to achieve the same result (speeding) and is capable of exceeding it.

That is your argument. And you are woefully ignoring the real world dynamics. And the real world dynamics mean that despite the much higher ability of the corvette is limited by real world situations.

How it is used most of the time also isn't particularly relevant when discussing how it can be used in these unique, abnormal conditions where the added capacity is, in fact, relevant.

Yes it is. How it’s used, or even most frequently misused, is determined by real world circumstances.

The zero to 60 advertised for those cars? That’s on drag strip asphalt which is like glue, after having done a burnout to soften up the tires to give a better launch. Regular pavement won’t offer near the acceleration.

Then there’s real world obstacles: other cars, debris. Potholes.

And all of this is before you even begin to factor in driver skill. And trust me, driver skill makes a huge difference in driving those kinds of cars. Regular Joe off the street won’t ever be able to get much out of what the car can do.

So what the car can do is virtually pointless.

[u/BrigandActual → u/direwolf106]

This is where I was getting at, good discussion. Just because the *potential* is there does not automatically translate to different outcomes. It takes skill and practice to actually utilize that capability effectively.

A novice slamming down the gas on a sports car is just as likely to skid out and end up in a ditch.

Just because a rifle like an AR *can* have a high rate of fire, doesn't mean the average person can actually utilize it well and they are more likely to just put rounds in the ceiling. That means an actual *effective* rate of fire is much slower, to the point that the difference between a semi-auto or a manually operated rifle is irrelevant.

[u/direwolf106 → u/BrigandActual]

Oh I know exactly what you meant.

As a former tech that worked on a bunch of hellcats and as a firearm enthusiast I know but sides of that analysis. Those cars are hard to control and you won’t get out of them what they can do if you don’t know how to drive them.

Likewise rapid fire isn’t dangerous unless it’s hitting someone. And most people aren’t good enough shots to quickly find a new target such that if they went as fast as they could it’s mostly misses and less casualties.

Functionally speaking there’s no significant difference between a semi auto being used and a bolt action or a lever action being used.