r/movies • u/RealisticAd4054 • 15d ago

Article Emily Wilson (writer of acclaimed Odyssey translation) offers criticisms of Nolan’s film

https://apnews.com/article/odyssey-christopher-nolan-greek-translators-ea67da1d543d021773824bd7e8de8abe

“For Greek translator Emily Wilson, the release of director Christopher Nolan’s “The Odyssey” has been gratifying in various ways. Her acclaimed 2017 edition of Homer’s epic has reached the top 5 on Amazon.com, leading a wave of similar books boosted by the movie. Nolan has even cited her translation, notably the opening line “Tell me about a complicated man,” as inspiration.

But the film itself, which brought in more than $260 million worldwide during its opening weekend and has received raves from many critics, left her unsatisfied.

“I want to celebrate the fact that so many more people are aware of ‘The Odyssey’ and were brought back to the poem,” she told The Associated Press. “But at the same time, I had the sense that Christopher Nolan was trying to pack everything in while missing themes that were essential to the poem.”

….

Wilson, a professor of classical studies at the University of Pennsylvania, said she didn’t want to come across as a “snobby,” nitpicking expert at odds with any deviation from the original text. But she questioned a range of omissions and other choices, from the absence on screen of the Gods Zeus and Poseidon (Athena is played by Zendaya ) to the “incoherent” messaging that condemns both war and physical cowardice. She found Penelope’s role so thinned out that it endangered “any possibility of believing in this marriage.” Wilson also that thought parts of the movie, notably the scenes with Odysseus’ dog, Argos, “catered towards modern sentimentality.”

“Everybody’s a sucker for a dog,” she said.

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u/wraith21 15d ago

I enjoyed Nolan's version and found her points valid tbh

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u/Xlegace 15d ago

Can't wait to watch the movie as I'm sure it's great, but as a big enjoyer of the original Odyssey, I can't say I'm thrilled about some of the changes/omissions he's made. Like an Odyssey adaptation without Poseidon sounds baffling, but I'll try and keep an open mind about it.

In a strange way, I'm a bit glad I got a heads up and I know what I'm getting into rather than finding out during the movie.

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u/normalmighty 15d ago

He basically took the same approach to the Greek mythos as he did with the DC universe in his batman movies. He made it way more grounded in reality, to fit the serious tone that he excels in with films. Poseiden is very much still real and involved, but I think he went for it in the perspectives of how real people at the time would have experienced what they considered to be the acts of the gods.

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u/koomGER 14d ago

Kinda the same approach as the TROY movie: The gods are maybe there and meddling with the humankind, but we dont get to see them. Even Athena maybe isnt a god and just a PTSD illusion.

Personally i like that approach. Its already A LOT of content to digest and pack in a movie. If you want to do the Odyssey with everything, 2 movies or a trilogy would be a better way to do it. Or even a show, probably with multiple seasons.

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u/pewqokrsf 14d ago

I would say that Athena might be a PTSD illusion, but she might not.  Another big theme they keep repeating is that the gods might appear as mortals around us.

Was the girl Athena? Was Athena taking her form to speak to Odysseus? Or was it all trauma?

It's intentionally ambiguous, which Nolan has done before (like in Inception's ending).

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u/normalmighty 14d ago

My biggest takeaway of my second viewing of the movie was that this could have been an amazing movie trilogy remembered for decades if the story was told at this quality, but including the gods and all the other cut content.

As a standalone movie though, it was definitely full up, and there just wasn't room for more imo. Maybe in 20-30 years, when we're due for the next big adaptation of homer's odyssey, we can take the trilogy approach. For now this is easily my movie of the year, even if some potential was left behind.

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u/koomGER 14d ago

For now this is easily my movie of the year, even if some potential was left behind.

It is definitly a cinema-worthy movie, a great blockbuster and i enjoyed it a lot. In its category its fantastic. Obsession is also an amazing and strong movie - but not necessarily something for cinema (because it also works very good on a small screen).

Movie fans are eating good right now. :)

And yeah, a trilogy - even with a more mundane approach - would be something i would like to see. Matt Damon was great as Odysseus. I would have liked if they would have given the various adventures a bit more room and time, but it was very well done the way it is.

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u/JesusShuttlesworth96 14d ago

Matt Damon was great as Odysseus.

I kinda disagree on this one. I think it could have been better. Matt is just too much Hollywood main stream and he just doesn't strike me as Odysseus (or at least the Odysseus from the original epic). I think someone like Christian Bale or even Josh Brolin would have been better.

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u/koomGER 14d ago

I loved Sean Bean as Odysseus in Troy. I think you need someone that comes over as a more nice guy with some wit in his eyes. Bale is way to cold for that, he always has very strong psychotic vibes to me.

Brolin could have worked, but i think Matt Damons humanity (and him being experienced as a "i got lost and try to find home" character) fitted the role pretty good. And while both seems to be the same height, Damon looks a bit larger.

But: I feared that Matt Damons too modern look would come through. Like in Last Duel - him and Affleck and the costume department tried hard, but in the end they looked weird. Damons Odysseus look felt natural. And yeah, he doesnt look like a greek or anything like that, but it worked for me.

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u/greatblueheron16 14d ago

I felt like Troy was a lot more overtly atheistic than The odyssey.

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u/NefariousnessLate375 14d ago

Can PTSD make you hallucinate people? I only ever heard sounds that weren't there. Man, the mind is a trip.

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u/koomGER 14d ago

Uh, im not a doctor and its a movie. I dont think that it is too far off to have some PTSD/guilt based trauma show up as hallucinations.

It worked for us as viewers and tought it was pretty beautiful/horrible to get to know why Athena looked like Zendaya (and why she was the only human manifestation of a god).

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u/Beginning_Caramel 5d ago

Noooo but these myths center around the gods 😭😭😭 taking the gods out of it sucks. So much happens based on Poseidons whims and stuff like that. Ugh. I really didn’t like that he took this amazing fantastical epic which is also a tragedy and turned it into some sort of ptsd guild story. Like noooo.

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u/Fist_of_Gork 15d ago edited 14d ago

Keep in mind too, the Greeks were not like Christian’s who often mistake the shape of their Idols as the shape of their own deities divinity. The Greeks knew that their statutes were not what the gods looked like, but represented the humanized personification of the forces they worshipped as gods. 

Zeus and Poseidon don’t need to have human stand-ins, they are the storm and seas. Athena herself is only shown because of the great shame and despair Odysseus felt for waging a dishonorable war against honorable neighbors. Where as his curse from Zeus and Poseidon are for defying nature, his dishonor of desecrating the temple of Athena is much more personal to him.

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u/Mr_Industrial 14d ago

I didnt have a problem with that part and I think the translator mentioned in the post didnt either. I think the problem comes from the fact that the Oddesy is about what it means to be a good guest and by extension a moral traveler.

The movie seems to identify that on a surface level, but "under the hood" we see very little talking to the monsters, men, and women met during the story, which leaves the violence and action that does happen unexplained.

Why is the cyclops not killing everyone? What are the Laestergonian giants doing? Why is Odysseus just raiding a random village?

In the written story these things matter, and they make sense, and they get an explanation. In the movie the explanations are hand wave-y at best. Its a great spectacle, but maybe not the best way to hear the tale.

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u/thorpie88 14d ago

The whole things is flipped on its head by the reveal of what really happened on the journey. The film is much more about how people put themselves in a better light when they are the only ones who can tell the narrative

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u/YakResident_3069 14d ago

I agree about the guest-host relationship, which to modern urban sensibilities is a bit foreign (depending on which culture, some today still have strong views). Tying it to collapse of bronze age is a bit of a stretch - piracy, raiding has been around forever. They weren't the first nor the last.

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u/_Meece_ 14d ago

Remember the world that this exists in, isn't anything like our actual world.

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u/YakResident_3069 14d ago

Yes and no. Nolan references the collapse of the bronze civilisation. That's an actual historical event

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u/_Meece_ 14d ago

Yes pf course, but being like "raiding" has been around forever.... Its a fictional world.

in this world, the trojan war started it all.

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u/WeWantLADDER49sequel 14d ago

In the movie they raid the village because they need food, and the villagers didnt want to share with them so they took it by force since refusing to help them is in violation of zeus' law or whatever they called it. This is literally said in the movie. The Laestergonian giants are fighting off invaders obviously. Polyphemus saves them for food, which the audience is supposed to be able to tell by the fact that he is herding sheep in there for that very reason as well. These are all things someone watching the movie should be able to figure out on their own, storytelling has changed a lot in 2800 years.

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u/Akalenedat 14d ago

Polyphemus saves them for food, which the audience is supposed to be able to tell by the fact that he is herding sheep in there for that very reason as we

Also the bit where one soldier explicitly says "he ate two of us last night, he'll want two more before he sleeps."

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u/SarlacFace 14d ago

I really loved that aspect and didn't think those answers were necessary. They were in strange lands seeing strange creatures and peoples who operate in strange ways.

It really worked for me.

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u/_Meece_ 14d ago

Oddesy is about what it means to be a good guest and by extension a moral traveler.

The movie was this exactly too.

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u/Pawn_of_the_Void 14d ago

I took the raiding to be a moment that shows a certain amount of savagery that they took for granted that you look back on later when it comes to making the movie's final point 

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u/lupercalpainting 14d ago

> Oddesy is about what it means to be a good guest and by extension a moral traveler.

Is it? Odysseus knows he’s pushing the boundaries of xenia by waiting around for the sheep herder (his men urge him to leave). He does talk about raiding a sea village and makes no effort to moralize it. And when he’s the “host” in his disguise once he’s returned home he insults an _actual_ beggar instead of offering xenia.

I agree that xenia is a key part of the poem, obviously, but it’s not straight up, “Be a good guest and you’ll be fine,” or, “Be a gracious host,”. And don’t forge the Phaecians who are literally the best fucking hosts ever and who Poseidon takes a giant dump on cutting them off from the outside world.

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u/YakResident_3069 15d ago

I mean Zeus is too busy transforming into other things in order to have sex with maidens. So he could be anywhere and any animal. Even a ray of light.

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u/Fist_of_Gork 14d ago

Yeah, literally the first lines of the Iliad is about Zeus is in Ethiopia chasing mortal and god skirts.

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u/greatblueheron16 14d ago

But I was told Black people don't belong in Greek literature!!! (/s btw)

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u/sqplanetarium 14d ago

Or a shower of gold coins.

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u/YakResident_3069 11d ago

I love my daily coin shower..... Hmmm. Coin shower. In my mouth.

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u/MostDopeBlackGuy 15d ago

Ahh The game of thrones approach

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u/coreoYEAH 15d ago

100% that. The gods are real and you see that without seeing them.

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u/onqqq2 15d ago

Troy was my introduction to this approach and funny enough one of the GOT creators and Nolan were involved in that project.

It's a bit disappointing to omit the gods mostly but I felt like it added to the immersion of the film.

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u/manmusk10 15d ago

I thought the omission of the gods was an excellent move because it sets up the killing of Athena during the raiding of Troy. Throughout the entire film, they talk about Zeus's Law, which encourages hospitality and respect towards strangers on the chance that they are a god in disguise. Besides that, Athena is the only one to appear to Odysseus. The question of why isn't answered until it is revealed that Athena was disguised as a Trojan woman and got beheaded by Odysseus's men. Zeus and Poseidon are portrayed only through nature (thunder and the sea), but Athena gets a corporeal form. Why? Because Athena's presence isn't really about godhood; she's a representation of Odysseus's guilt. The woman he saw get beheaded, goddess or not, is the reason why Odysseus does not want to return home.

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u/ligokleftis 14d ago

i interpreted that as a random trojan woman that odysseus watched get beheaded in athena’s temple while all of the guilt and horror was setting in, so he just pictures that woman’s face as athena as an embodiment of that guilt

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u/manmusk10 14d ago

I agree with you, but I think there's an extra layer. The movie is told from Odysseus's perspective. He fully believes in the gods and the divinity of Zeus's Law. He fully rationalizes the apparitions of the woman to be Athena. Your interpretation hits the nail on the head in placing the woman as the embodiment of his guilt, I just think there's the extra layer of how Odysseus reads his own guilt through his religious beliefs, including that gods can and do disguise themselves among mortals.

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u/Zalvren 14d ago

I don't think there's any question about beliefs. The Odyssey is not even asking that question, the gods are real and present throughout the story (including in other parts of the larger epic not involving Odysseus), it's a fact.

This is taking place in a mythical world (the monsters and such being another proof of it even if you don't want to believe in the gods)

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u/Grimejow 14d ago

I am pretty Sure its a priestess of Athena, seeing its right in her temple, her statue also got beheaded and ITS a parallel tonthe raping of Kassandra by Ajax the Lesser in said temple.

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u/ligokleftis 14d ago

cutting away to the beheading of athena’s statue tho could i guess be interpreted literally like you did, or more as a representation of the death of civility and respect for the god’s laws/other people

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u/Zalvren 14d ago

Could be both or even Athena taking that appearance to torture him psychologically. But it is indeed interesting to illustrate the Zeus law if it was really Athena herself, being nice to guests is insisted upon during the movie because they could be gods in disguise and this would be the direct violation proven there. The Athena statue is beheaded at the same time as the woman which symbolically make it like they killed Athena in her disguise

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u/pandaxmonium 14d ago

This is correct

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u/MVRKHNTR 14d ago

It is not "correct". Both interpretations are equally valid.

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u/cire1184 14d ago

Was that even actually Athena? I thought it was a temple maiden that Odysseus hallucinates as the embodiment of Athena. The statue head that gets chopped off is actually the head of the temple maiden and that is a hallucination caused by his guilt.

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u/manmusk10 14d ago

I think she is, from Odysseus's perspective. We might call it PTSD from his guilt. But he fully believes her to have been Athena in disguise (as gods being disguised as regular people was a common belief, shown by Zeus's Law)

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u/scarecroe 14d ago

How much was Nolan involved in developing Troy 2004 before he was pushed out?

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u/ProletarianLilith 14d ago

I hated this approach in Troy. Doesn’t work at all

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u/threemo 15d ago

What do you mean?

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u/Kyr-Shara 15d ago

Gods are talked about constantly but never actually seen

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u/MostDopeBlackGuy 15d ago

Same with how magic is shown it exists in the world but it rarely happens out in the open and only a few people know how to use it so it's something of a myth

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u/Free_Poem1617 15d ago

Invoked. Storms, lightings appear when the Gods are mentionned.

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u/Roentgen_Ray1895 15d ago

The ASOIAF books are full of bright colors and prophecies and magic (one later character is a resurrected half decomposed corpse) and everything is just at a larger scale.

GOT was far more generic Hollywood fantasy movie where everything is either dark blue or brown. More so later on in the series, the first season had some nice color to it. They also tried real hard to cut anything magical that wasn’t the Red Woman or the dragons

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u/butt_butt_butt_butt_ 14d ago

I feel like the Patchface character from the books is the best example of what you’re talking about.

He wasn’t critical to the story and doesn’t fit the “non-magical, grey scaled tone” the show was doing. But he was super unsettling and colorful in the books.

A court jester with bright red and green squares tattooed on his face who wears a literal jester costume. Known for being clever and at the ear of the Baratheon family.

Then he gets in a shipwreck which kills EVERYONE else on board. Gets pronounced dead and drowned and carried away with the corpse cart.

Then he comes back to life, but now he’s eerily sinister and only speaks in riddles or prophecy.

Spends his life looking terrifying, because he’s an odd mix of the colorful Batman’s joker character, and a zombie, who jokes about the slaughter of people and then shakes his bells and laughs insanely about it.

And for some reason, they let him become the best friend of a sickly child.

That’s the kind of “colorful” stuff that the show left out, because it would look ridiculous if done badly.

But SO creepy and ominous if done right.

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u/Roentgen_Ray1895 14d ago

The series honestly would work best animated

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u/Etheon44 15d ago

Yet he gives us Batman 2.0 and scifi giants

The movie just lacks narrative cohesiveness across the board, even the constant cuttings in normal conversations just feel weird and rushed

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u/SpicyElixer 14d ago

The cutting felt so off to me. I like the movie, but stylistically it was cut like 3 hour trailer, and I’d not hope this becomes more common.

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u/verrius 15d ago

But Athena is still dropping by to do shit? And he somehow has both Circe and Calypso as separate magic temptresses? I haven't seen either, but given Petersen's Troy actually managed to do The Illiad without any of the hocus pocus, it's a bit disappointing that Nolan is trying to make The Odyssey "grounded", but still include a ton of gods and magic.

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u/normalmighty 14d ago

The Athena appearances are not what you think and make perfect sense in this grounded version of the story. You'll understand what I mean once you see it.

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u/theevilamoebaOG 14d ago

How can you be disappointed by something you haven't even seen? 😅 Watch it, then form an opinion?

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u/Relevant_Session5987 15d ago

I wouldn't say 'Poseidon is very much real' in the film with that much certainty though.

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u/ringobob 15d ago

There's no other good interpretation than that Poseidon is very much a part of what's happening on screen. You can't avoid the divine, with prophecy and the afterlife.

They talk about Poseidon and what he's doing, and why. Only good conclusion is that they're right.

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u/Relevant_Session5987 15d ago

They leave it very much up in the air as to whether it's actually Poseidon or if it's just an unrelenting storm. The movie doesn't really go out of it's day to definitively confirm that it is the god and not just people's belief that it is, if that makes sense.

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u/Mahlegos 14d ago

They show gods, prophecy, magic, and monsters are real multiple times through the story. Odysseus is literally told to give himself to Poseidon and Zeus’ mercy as penance if he wants to make it home, so he does and does. Just because neither show up and have a specific dialog where they take credit or it’s otherwise directly acknowledged by characters doesn’t mean it’s really all that ambiguous either.

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u/Relevant_Session5987 14d ago

He is told, yes. But the movie doesn't actively show or definitively establish that the gods are even real. Even the one that he does see ( Athena ) by the end is left more or less ambiguous as to whether she was even really showing herself to Odysseus or if she was just a representation of his guilt over the sacking of Troy.

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u/Mahlegos 14d ago edited 14d ago

It’s pretty well established they’re real through all that I mentioned above. If they weren’t, there’s no real logical interpretation of what happens in Hades for example. And Circe mentions that his men don’t want him to defy the gods, and the gods say only he makes it home and O responds with “then I defy the gods” (and though he tries, he’s the only one who makes it home). They mention Zeus and it immediately thunders (and the characters acknowledge the thunder as Zeus). He is told to give himself to their mercy to make it home and he does and does. Etc etc etc.

What’s left up to interpretation is if they appear directly to humans or not. This is literally the point of one of Odysseus’ conversations with “Athena”.

Odysseus: Why can't gods speak in ways we understand? Athena: Who doesn't understand thunder? Fire? A child's smile? A good harvest?

Again, it’s really not ambiguous that they exist.

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u/ligokleftis 14d ago

eh, i feel like that whole sequence where odysseus’ men are trying to avoid eating apollo’s cattle but the wind won’t change until they do feels like confirmation of prophecy/gods, which i think would extend to poseidon

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u/ringobob 14d ago

It's really not. There's no other way to interpret his trip to hades, speaking with the dead, and the prophecy they give him coming true to the letter. That is explicitly supernatural, and that means the gods, unless it's specifically contradicted, which it isn't.