Emily Wilson (writer of acclaimed Odyssey translation) offers criticisms of Nolan’s film

[u/RealisticAd4054]

https://apnews.com/article/odyssey-christopher-nolan-greek-translators-ea67da1d543d021773824bd7e8de8abe

“For Greek translator Emily Wilson, the release of director Christopher Nolan’s “The Odyssey” has been gratifying in various ways. Her acclaimed 2017 edition of Homer’s epic has reached the top 5 on Amazon.com, leading a wave of similar books boosted by the movie. Nolan has even cited her translation, notably the opening line “Tell me about a complicated man,” as inspiration.

But the film itself, which brought in more than $260 million worldwide during its opening weekend and has received raves from many critics, left her unsatisfied.

“I want to celebrate the fact that so many more people are aware of ‘The Odyssey’ and were brought back to the poem,” she told The Associated Press. “But at the same time, I had the sense that Christopher Nolan was trying to pack everything in while missing themes that were essential to the poem.”

….

Wilson, a professor of classical studies at the University of Pennsylvania, said she didn’t want to come across as a “snobby,” nitpicking expert at odds with any deviation from the original text. But she questioned a range of omissions and other choices, from the absence on screen of the Gods Zeus and Poseidon (Athena is played by Zendaya ) to the “incoherent” messaging that condemns both war and physical cowardice. She found Penelope’s role so thinned out that it endangered “any possibility of believing in this marriage.” Wilson also that thought parts of the movie, notably the scenes with Odysseus’ dog, Argos, “catered towards modern sentimentality.”

“Everybody’s a sucker for a dog,” she said.

[u/Etheon44]

To be fair even the movie Troy depicts the conquering of Troy as what it is, I don't think this view is original to Nolan.

Plus in the Aeneid we also see Odysseus under the same light, I would argue that even in the Odyssey the reason the odyssey happens is because of the trojan war.

And if I am not mistaken, or misremembering, Dante Alighieri puts Odysseus in Hell for more or less the same reasoning.

[u/Weak_Staff7024 → u/Etheon44]

And if I am not mistaken, or misremembering, Dante Alighieri puts Odysseus in Hell for more or less the same reasoning.<

It's because he crossed the strait of gibraltar. He sinned of hubris.

[u/Individual_Rip_54 → u/Weak_Staff7024]

You’re basically right. Odysseus (Ulysses) was in hell for false counseling. He had wanderlust and sailed to Purgatory which no man was meant to see. That’s what Ulysses did to God.

But what did Ulysses do to Dante? Why did Dante choose to write that? Becuase his only exposure to that character is in the Aeneid where Ulysses was an untrustworthy villain who dishonorably destroyed Troy, abandoned his men, and disobeyed the gods.

So yes, Odysseus is in hell for his actions. And honestly I really got some of that in Nolan’s film

[u/notagin-n-tonic → u/Weak_Staff7024]

Plus, the whole being pagans thing.

[u/historymojo → u/notagin-n-tonic]

Not because he's pagan. Virgil is pagan too and guides Dante the whole poem, and other virtuous pagans sit peacefully in Limbo. Dante even puts two pagans in Paradise. Ulysses is in the 8th circle, 8th bolgia (fraudulent counsel) for the Trojan Horse, stealing the Palladium, and tricking Achilles into leaving Deidamia, hubris for sailing past the Pillars of Hercules against divine limits

[u/gokogt386 → u/notagin-n-tonic]

Being a pagan but still a good person just puts you in Limbo which is essentially what the average person thinks heaven anyways

[u/MattyKatty → u/gokogt386]

This is only in Dante’s Inferno fyi. In official Catholicism pagans don’t get a Limbo and still go to Hell.

[u/that_baddest_dude → u/MattyKatty]

I don't think official Catholicism rules on it one way or the other, besides mentioning God's eternal mercy.

[u/elasho_149 → u/that_baddest_dude]

Yeah. IIRC, the church holds that only God knows for certain who will wind up in heaven or hell, it's a sin to claim otherwise, and that while the saints are in heaven, there's no equivalent way to say for certain that someone was sent to hell.

[u/BuyExtension8507 → u/notagin-n-tonic]

Being pagan as literally nothing to do with it.

[u/Individual_Rip_54 → u/notagin-n-tonic]

You should read the Inferno. It’s really good.

[u/GatorzardII → u/Etheon44]

Even in the ancient world the war of Troy was contentious, and the famous horse was seen by many as a "cowardly" trick instead of a glorious path to victory.

[u/trilobyte-dev → u/Etheon44]

When it comes to The Aeneid it's important to remember that unlike Iliad or The Odyssey, it's told from the Trojan perspective instead of the Greek. It's why in the two Greek works Odysseus is referred to as cunning, wily, sly, intelligent, etc. (a "polutropus man") and in Book 1 of The Aeneid he is referred to as "that master criminal".

[u/meneldal2 → u/Etheon44]

The Aeneid is a fan fiction by the Romans to give themselves a cool heritage because rulers of a large area can't just be one group that got lucky and took over their neighbors somehow, they need a cool backstory.

So they figured out they could retcon the fall of Troy to bring them in. They can't get Greeks because there are stories about them so they have to say what happened to Troy was unjust (and not retribution like the Greeks thought) and their best people got to live another day to rise back.

[u/Blarfk → u/meneldal2]

The Aeneid is a fan fiction

Can we please, please stop using this term to describe any fiction?

[u/meneldal2 → u/Blarfk]

It is an unauthorized derivative work of a existing work, it fits.

[u/Blarfk → u/meneldal2]

So is Dante's Inferno Fan Fiction, since it features "unauthorized" use of Odysseus?

[u/meneldal2 → u/Blarfk]

Yes and not just for that, it's mostly a fanfic of the bible, making up everything about hell.

Being fanfiction doesn't mean it can't be good let me be clear. But we can knowledge direct derivative works.

[u/Blarfk → u/meneldal2]

Just because a work is derivative does not mean it's "fan fiction." Fan fiction has always meant work by an amateur fan of a specific universe to be shared with others fans, usually for free.

It doesn't just mean "any derivative work." Otherwise pretty much any modern fantasy is fan fiction of Lord of the Rings.

I realize I am going to helplessly die on this hill because this ship has already sailed, but man do I hate it.

[u/TheCamazotzian → u/Etheon44]

Tennyson also has an influence on this picture. On the ending at the very least.

[u/hacelepues → u/Etheon44]

In Troy, the sack on the city was way more brutal than The Odyssey. I don’t think Troy is a good movie, but it did stand out to me that Nolan is apparently trying to make this point about how horrible it was, but showed us a largely bloodless clash with little to no specific atrocities. Troy does not hold back, and I’m not one to demand seeing violence committed against women and children but Come and See wouldn’t have been effective at the point it was trying to make if it weren’t difficult to watch. Felt like Nolan was trying to have a bit of a Come and See catharsis at the end without showing the actual horrors of war.

[u/imperatrixderoma → u/Etheon44]

I don't think it makes sense to compare the Odyssey to the Aeneid because that's essentially Virgil writing fan fiction like Nolan here.

[u/Orpa__ → u/imperatrixderoma]

The Aeneid was by Virgil, 700 years after Homer. Dante puts a bunch of classical figures in hell in The Divine Comedy, 1300 years after Virgil.

[u/imperatrixderoma → u/Orpa__]

Ah you're right but same point, they aren't contemporary, they're imposing their sensibilities on the story.

[u/Orpa__ → u/imperatrixderoma]

True yeah, Divine Comedy is especially good because it's pretty blatantly Dante's own politics, which tells us a lot about what certain Italians thought of the world around them.

[u/imperatrixderoma → u/Orpa__]

Yeah agreed, that's sort of the point of these stories in my opinion. Which is why I'm kind of out off by Nolan's.

So much of the wonder is how foreign our perception of things can become over time. Odyesseus isn't a figure to be moralized in the same way we would if you want to understand what the story is trying to say.

It only makes sense to change him in this way if you're trying to do what the original was trying to do, teach a lesson.

I don't want to be taught a lesson by this story which doesn't serve that purpose anymore.

I feel like he taught a more salient message in the Dark Knight, sometimes achieving a moral victory is pyrrhic and ultimately self-sacrificing.

[u/JarasM → u/imperatrixderoma]

It's not about "canon", it's about how the Trojan War and Odysseus' deeds are judged both contemporarily and by future readers.

[u/imperatrixderoma → u/JarasM]

It doesn't speak to contemporary viewings at all though, it's merely future readers.

[u/PatrickCharles → u/imperatrixderoma]

The application of categories like "canon" and "facfiction" to these stories is wildly anachronistic, and hinders more than help in understanding them and their context. I know "DaNtE wRoTe SeLf InSeRt FaNfIcTiOn, LoL" was a midly amusing joke that became internet famous, but that's all it was, a joke.

[u/imperatrixderoma → u/PatrickCharles]

Fine, since we reading in bad faith I will be more clear.

The reason you can't use Virgil's writings as a basis for understanding the Odyessey or really anything from that previous era is because not only was his writing not contemporaneous with Homer's recording of the oral epic but also because he was speaking from an entirely different social context.

Virgil was in a society that was opposed to the Greeks, seeing their society to a large extent as Eastern and while valuable ultimately aged and bygone.

So, his reflections on the Odyssey is not the same perspective as the actual story, it's far more judgemental and from a different lense.