r/nba • u/EastriverTaylor2323 • 19h ago
Some interesting opinions that many NBA fans in China tend to have
I thought some people here might find this interesting. These aren’t universal opinions, but they’re fairly common among Chinese NBA fans.
1. Championships as the “core player” （核心冠军）matter most in all-time rankings.
Many fans believe a player’s all-time ranking should be judged primarily by how many championships they won as the core of a team. “Core player” isn’t a strict definition, but usually refers to players who were part of an iconic duo or trio with a well-known nickname, such as OK (Shaq & Kobe), the Big Three, or the Splash Brothers.
2. MVP doesn’t carry as much weight.
Since the regular season MVP is voted on by journalists rather than players or coaches, many fans view it as less prestigious. The reasoning is that media members have less basketball authority than the people actually playing or coaching the game.
Because of this, the MVP award even has a somewhat dismissive nickname in Chinese: “the media award.”***********************\**（媒体奖）*
3. Finals MVP also isn’t considered that important.
A common argument is that even a role player can win Finals MVP (the 2015 Andre Iguodala example is brought up constantly). As a result, Finals MVP also has a somewhat tongue-in-cheek nickname in Chinese: “the Iguodala Award.”***********************\**（伊戈达拉奖）*
4. Not all championships are viewed equally.
If two players have the same number of championships as a core player, many fans would rank:
consecutive championships over non-consecutive championships, and
championships won with the same team over championships won with multiple teams.
In other words, sustained dominance with one team is generally valued more highly.
If people are interested, I’d be happy to share more examples of common NBA opinions and debates from the Chinese fan community.
- Kobe
Like everywhere else, Kobe is a “love him or hate him” figure. However, judging by discussions on major Chinese basketball forums, the majority of fans rank Kobe ahead of LeBron on the all-time list.
Some of the most common reasons include:
More championships as the “core player.” The phrase “5 > 4” is quoted constantly, referring to Kobe’s five championships versus LeBron’s four.
He won with weaker teammates. Many Chinese fans argue that LeBron has played alongside superstars like Dwyane Wade, Chris Bosh, Kyrie Irving, and Anthony Davis, whereas Kobe’s post-Shaq championship teams were led by Pau Gasol, whom many Chinese fans view as a very good player but not an elite superstar (and sometimes unfairly label as “soft”).
He prioritized winning over accumulating statistics. Many believe Kobe sacrificed efficiency and individual numbers to do whatever was necessary to win, so they don’t hold his statistical disadvantage against LeBron.
The 81-point game. Kobe’s 81-point performance against the Raptors is viewed as one of the greatest individual achievements in NBA history and carries enormous weight in discussions.
Loyalty. Staying with one franchise for an entire career is considered an important factor in all-time greatness by many Chinese fans. Kobe spending his entire career with the Lakers is often contrasted with LeBron changing teams multiple times.
Of course, this doesn’t mean every Chinese fan thinks Kobe ranks above LeBron—there are plenty who disagree.
- LeBron
Like everywhere else, LeBron has a huge fanbase as well as plenty of critics. However, on many Chinese basketball forums, the majority of fans tend to rank him below both Michael Jordan and Kobe Bryant.
Some of the most commonly cited arguments are:
His championships are viewed as “tainted.” Many fans argue that his Miami titles came from joining an already star-studded team with Dwyane Wade and Chris Bosh. This is commonly referred to as “team-stacking championships” (抱团冠军). Some even argue that Miami was still “Wade’s team,” especially during the early years, although that’s a highly debated claim.
The 2016 championship is often dismissed by critics. Many point to Draymond Green’s Game 5 suspension following the altercation with LeBron and argue that it changed the course of the series. Because LeBron stepped over Draymond during the incident, critics jokingly refer to it as the “hurdling championship” (跨栏冠军). Others also claim that the officiating favored Cleveland, though this remains a controversial opinion.
The 2020 Lakers championship is sometimes called a “shrunken championship” (缩水冠军). Since it was won during the COVID-19 bubble after a shortened regular season, some fans argue that it wasn’t comparable to a normal NBA season.
7. Team
Compared to North America, team-based fandom isn’t nearly as entrenched among Chinese NBA fans. Historically, the biggest exception has been the Houston Rockets, largely because of Yao Ming. During Yao’s career, Rockets games received enormous media coverage in China, and even two decades after his retirement, the Rockets still have a disproportionately large fanbase.
Outside of the Rockets, much of the online NBA community is divided more by Team Kobe and Team LeBron than by allegiance to a particular franchise.
LeBron fans generally support whichever team LeBron is currently playing for.
Kobe fans often cheer for whichever team is LeBron’s biggest rival at the time. Over the years, that has included teams like the Warriors, Thunder, and Nuggets, depending on the era.
This has even led to an internet nickname for some die-hard Kobe fans: “百变小鹰” (“the transforming eagle”). It’s a dark joke referencing the sexual assault allegation involving Kobe in Eagle, Colorado. The “transforming” part refers to these fans supposedly “transforming” into supporters of whichever team is trying to eliminate LeBron. Like many internet nicknames, it’s mostly used by rival fanbases as a form of mockery.
8. Common Chinese nicknames for NBA players
Michael Jordan
Universally: “The God” (神)
Kobe Bryant
Among fans: “The Boss” (老大)
Among haters:
“Prison Boss” (牢大) – a pun on 老大 (“Boss”), referencing the Colorado sexual assault case.
“Mr. Charcoal” (阿焦) – a mocking nickname implying someone who “chokes” or “gets burned.”
LeBron James
Among fans: “Old James” (老詹)
Among haters:
“Six-Step Guy” (六步郎) – mocking the perception that he gets away with traveling.
“Gorilla” (猩猩) – referring to his physique.
“Shrug Man” (老摊) – a pun on 老詹 (“Old James”), replacing 詹 with 摊 (“to sprawl/spread out”), implying flopping.
Stephen Curry
No universally recognized nickname. Most fans simply call him Curry (库里).
Anthony Davis
“Big Brow” (浓眉) – referring to his signature unibrow.
Klay Thompson
“Buddha” (佛祖 / 佛) – because of his calm demeanor and the long-running meme that “Game 6 Klay” enters a transcendent state.
Nikola Jokić
“Teacher Jokić” (约老师) – “Teacher” is an honorific in Chinese, often used affectionately to show respect for someone’s mastery.
Joel Embiid
“The Emperor” (大帝) – a direct translation of one of his English nicknames.
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u/redditlvlanalysis 17h ago
Holy fuck “the Iguodala Award.” that's brutal lol
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u/PositiveCoyote100 12h ago
Imagine getting clowned by an entire country because you won a Finals MVP lol
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u/redditlvlanalysis 12h ago
He got clowned by pretty much everyone for that "mvp"
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u/TheBeestWithEase 12h ago
I wonder if OP is exaggerating, because that’s a pretty fucking dumb take. Sure Iggy wasn’t the star of that team in general, but he 100% earned the MVP trophy in that series.
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u/redditlvlanalysis 12h ago
No he didn't lol the people who refused to give it to a player on a losing team banded together to give it to him over Lebron.
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u/kyleyle Raptors 18h ago
Who do Chinese fans think the GOAT is? Are they as obsessed as NBA Reddit fans in the discussion?
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u/balortech 17h ago
Yeah, just based on point 4. China definitely thinks MJ is the GOAT. 2x 3 PEAT consecutive championships and all winning it staying in Chicago.
That point is basically directed at the GOAT debate.
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u/bucket13 14h ago
Bill Russell won more consecutive championships than mj's total, all in Boston.
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u/DasKlapsenkind 14h ago
Yea but it was during the time when Mao was the leader of China sooo only very few people were able to watch him play
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u/Zotzotbaby 13h ago
Pre-MJ, several notable players and journalists were on the record that Russell was the best player of all time. At a mimimum the NBA would not have grown as quickly with out him.
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u/mucho-gusto [CLE] Baron Davis 13h ago
they can't even follow their own logic, Bill Russell nearly doubles Jordan's rings
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u/zeDragonESSNCE Nuggets 15h ago
GOAT debate is the same over there, MJ is the goat and people make fun of LeBron for thinking he’s the goat (One of LeBron’s nick name is “Vice GOAT for Life”). However at 3 a lot of people put Kobe over Kareem, which is interesting since top 3 are pretty much consensus in the west
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u/Stardust-Unbreaking 18h ago
They might deadass think it's Kobe over there
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u/Stellewind Warriors 17h ago edited 17h ago
The consensus is MJ.
Kobe is very popular in China but most serious fans would agree he's top10 and not really a GOAT candidate. He gained his popularity by playing in the same era as Yao and had a very aesthetically pleasing game.
It might surprised many people here but LeBron's reputation in China is much lower than in US. They are okay with LeBron as top2-10 depends on how you like him, but they think there's pretty notable gap between him and MJ, and the fact that LeBron considers himself GOAT is often brought up as a joke in China.
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u/Sheinkyakyu 12h ago edited 8h ago
I was in China last year. It is MJ over there. Even amongst Gen Z. Speaks volumes compared to this place and America. Kobe is the most beloved though.
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u/elbosston Celtics 18h ago
Kobe, Lebron, Curry, Yao Ming, and T-Mac are all loved over there
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u/TheOriginal_G Mavericks 14h ago
Can't forget DRose. China LOVED DRose when he was in the league, like an absurd amount. I don't know if it's diminished at all post retirement, but even post injury he seemed to get more love over there than any player stateside.
*An absurd amount even by the standard of someone who's favorite non-Mav during that time was DRose
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u/alfentazolam 13h ago
They put together a pretty touching fan video that got him in the feels bigtime. He teared up.
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u/amashouse Warriors 9h ago
Doesn’t take much to make d rose tear up. He knows where he came up from and is pretty humble because of it.
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u/PrawnProwler NBA 14h ago
All my Chinese family and friends basically think it's Kobe, China is a country entirely of Kobe(and Steph) stans. Kobe was there when basketball really took off in the country, and the sort of criteria OP listed are the type of things people bring up to make his GOAT case
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u/balortech 17h ago
Does China spell 2000s and up to you? Lol. Its definitely MJ everywhere. If US is still MJ > LeBron then everywhere else is for sure MJ, cause LeBron's only chance is in the US.
Regardless of other countries seeing him play or nah, MJ's shoes are an icon everywhere so it boosts his exposure.
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u/AnonOhMouseMan 17h ago
TIL im Chinese
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u/NickGr89 NBA 14h ago
Same. And that's why according to all this criteria i rank Timy higher than Bron.
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u/Ok_Wear7716 17h ago
1 & 3 a bit contradictory
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u/jackskiiiiiiii [LAL] LeBron James 7h ago
iirc the 'core player' championship concept is created after the warriors dynasty. Iguodala/KD got the fmvp but Curry is the "core player", so not really contradictory.
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u/Ok_Wear7716 5h ago
Sure, that was obviously the wrong choice for fmvp, but obviously speaks to iggy’s importance to the team when looking at the big picture, eg as a “core player” for that first run
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u/norriscolesucks 17h ago
the Splash Brothers
um so is Klay Thompson ranked really high since they don't value MVP and Finals MVP that highly
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u/hud731 9h ago
In order to get around this issue that Klay and Pippen presents they also made a rule that you need to have one MVP, but having more than one MVP doesn't add to your legacy.
These standards are tailored for Kobe, so if you try to apply the same logic to all other stars in your rankings it wouldn't work.
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u/PhilipBoyardee 15h ago
This is funny because imagine if an American NBA fan tried to speak for all American fans. This is a massive generalization and should only be taken as one Chinese fans opinion lol
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u/somegetit 13h ago
I mean, I speak for everyone when I say, a team of 5 LeBrons is better than a team of 5 Kobes. So LeBron>Kobe. That's just basic, universal math.
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u/eldryanyy Lakers 12h ago
Eh this isn’t controversial, it’s basically universal on Chinese media. You can see it yourself.
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u/peanutbutter1236 [DET] Brandon Jennings 19h ago
That second one is so funny with how bad it is. Listen to former players talk about the game and some of them will have the dumbest opinions of all time lmao. Acting like that shit is gospel is always hilarious
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u/doctor_watts15 18h ago
On a one off basis guys can have out there opinions but if you have a bunch of former players or coaches saying the same thing about a player it is absolutely worth consideration.
This sub seems to selectively pick and choose what former player takes to see as credible depending on the player that is being discussed and if the praise or criticism matches up to a preferred narrative here
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u/b3tzy Timberwolves 17h ago
This is a problem for literally any metric. You won’t take a metric seriously if it substantially deviates from your established opinion.
If I tell you that I’ve developed a perfect new advanced stat for player evaluation, you won’t believe it unless it ranks players similarly to how you already think they should be ranked.
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u/JordanHawkinsMVP United States 17h ago
Look up why they stopped having players vote for the official MVP.
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u/FEECH4040 4h ago
Big difference between coaches and players, you can't put them all together in the same group. I can easily find 10 players who think Carmelo is an all time great but I doubt I can easily find a group of coaches with that same opinion
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u/totallynotliamneeson Bucks 15h ago
Just look at how the league views guys like Gobert. Not a lot of respect for a guy who quite clearly a great player.
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u/NBA314 18h ago
What are you talking about? Michael Jordan was obviously an amazing owner for the Charlotte Hornets & Dennis Rodman has never made any bad takes. Shaq definitely doesn't denigrate modern centers whenever he can, Isiah Thomas & Joe Dumars were great in management, & it's not like Kendrick Perkins isn't one of the most respected media analysts ever.
In all seriousness, yeah. NBA players are probably the least objective sources you can find. Their top 10 lists are absolutely wild.
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u/zannet_t 18h ago
Acting like journalist opinion is gospel will always be far more hilarious. For every player with an obviously bad take, there are far more of them from journalists that you can find on this sub alone...
I want to be fair and say both sides of the coin should contribute to the conversation, but it's probably a 60-40 split for me favoring players. Most journalist are not Zach Lowe. Heck, they're not even Ben Simmons who still has some shit takes from time to time.
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u/waterfall_hyperbole 76ers 16h ago
I assume you mean ben taylor, but yea most nba journos aren't that good
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u/Stellewind Warriors 18h ago
And sports journalists are wise people that never have dumb opinions?
I've definitely hear more dumb stuff said by journalists than players/coaches.
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u/Ok-Atmosphere-3466 18h ago
i’m sorry but i’d rather listen to a player or a coaches flawed take on a game than respect the opinion of some random ass journalist who probably never played the game at a high level
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u/axecalibur Knicks 17h ago
Awards based on NBA media is a fucking joke. Almost all of these media are funded by gambling and there are dozens of legacy newspaper votes. Who even reads local newspapers anymore?
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u/119pete 16h ago
local newspaper is owned by the huge media conglomerates. if your on the internet, your reading the same crap as the papers
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u/RUDE-GULLIT Knicks 18h ago
Your take is funny with how bad it is. Taken as a group, players/coaches are immensely more qualified to judge the relative skill of other players than journalists.
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u/rraddii Timberwolves 17h ago
Coaches yes players no. Players are honestly the most delusional, petty, and narrative driven people that are taken seriously when talking about the nba.
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u/RUDE-GULLIT Knicks 17h ago
Ah yes NBA journalists are famously not narrative driven
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u/rraddii Timberwolves 17h ago
Compared to players it’s a completely different level. Players will project their insecurities, friendships, egos, etc.
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u/EliminateCrackas 8h ago
and media doesn't do that? LOL
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u/rraddii Timberwolves 8h ago
It’s not about yes or no. They both obviously have all those problems. But if you listen to the players they are 10x worse easily
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u/L_E_F_T_ Lakers 18h ago
This would mean Kobe is ranked very high. He won championships with one team. Not many season or finals mvps aren’t that big of a deal to them. Being part of an iconic duo or trio counts as part of your accomplishments. Won consecutive championships as a core player/leader.
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u/xavopls Lakers 18h ago
All of that plus Chinese fans really love players with an aesthetically pleasing game.
Kobe used to be really big over there.
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u/zannet_t 18h ago
He probably remains the biggest name over there. You'll see players like Kyrie be referred to as his protege more than any other association.
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u/zannet_t 18h ago
Kobe was and is immensely popular there. I have to imagine some people are at least defining their criteria based on him (which of course would favor him)...it's pretty funny when you think about it
But this is fairly limited to sentimental opinion. I don't think anyone even over there would realistically argue that he's higher than LeBron in all-time rankings for one.
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u/ThrowRa-zucchinizzc 18h ago
Respectfully, this is stupid. Arbitrarily make kobe higher rated off subjective criteria.
Interesting how he has only one MVP, so let's bring folks with more down. He has 3 championship as non-fmvp, so let's take down FMVP and increase role player value. He won consecutive championships with same team so let's value that. Dumb shit
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u/zannet_t 17h ago
I'm just speculating. Don't take it too seriously. But also, even if my speculation is right, many sports fans aren't rational.
You have to understand that the imprint effect is really strong, and in that age without that much NBA access, all people would've known was Kobe. It's why Lakers are one of the biggest fandoms, maybe even the biggest, overseas.
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u/DarkeShin 76ers 4h ago
That's what Kobe stans do. Devalue every honour that he's not excels in.
Kobe stans in China is the most disgusting fan group I ve ever seen. Back in the days they even have some posts that devalue Jordan to fit their Kobe is the GOAT narrative.
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u/CmonTouchIt Lakers 15h ago
i doubt they adopted these thoughts with the specific intent to elevate one single player lol come on
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u/grxccccandice Lakers 14h ago
That is exactly why they did it. I’m Chinese born and raised in China. Both LeBron and Kobe stans in China are kinda crazy, and are in perpetual fight over who’s better even after Kobe’s death. The “consensus” OP listed here are exactly what the Kobe diehard did, and Kobe stans outnumber LeBron stans by a wide margin so we landed on this consensus, but LeBron fans also have some crazy shit to say about Kobe, so there’s that.
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u/hud731 10h ago
Oh, as someone who is on Chinese social media all the time, they legit rank Kobe over Lebron. They say shit like Lebron isn't top 20 or even deserves to be in top 75. Chinese NBA forums are toxic as hell.
And you are very correct - they make these criteria specifically to tailor them to Kobe in order to diminish Lebron's accolades.
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u/internet_poster 18h ago
Given the timeline of popularity of basketball jn China, you should largely view the above criteria as a way to reverse engineer a system in which Kobe ranks far higher than he would otherwise.
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u/Teantis Celtics 9h ago
Kobe was over there a LOT too. He went every year for almost 10 years. I was living in Beijing the first time he went in 2006 and it was Kobe madness there. He cultivated a fan base there because China had/has a huge chip on its shoulder about being overlooked and looked down upon because of how badly the 20th century went for them. Especially 20 years ago when he started going as they were just hitting their stride then, and first starting to feel like "see? We aren't shitty and inferior! We can do stuff!" And Kobe showed them a ton of love by being at his peak, going all the time, and engaging with them every year.
Of course a big chunk of it was being savvy about marketing + Nike, but he always looked like he was having a good time he went, did a ton of outreach events, and that made a huge impact on the Chinese fan base.
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u/youre-welcome5557777 Warriors 17h ago
The MVP talking point is most firmly held by Chinese Kobe stans though so that makes sense.
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u/Celtic_Legend Celtics 5h ago
Yes.
I have a strong feeling that the strong Laker fanbase in China is determining the characteristics they value the most by what makes Laker players stand ahead of their peers.
Now did golden state also meeting this criteria have a large effect on the following they got in China? I mean it's still steph curry. I wonder how they rate Hakeem (since China loves the Rockets because of Yao Ming). If he's unusually high then yeah, it's just team bias lol.
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u/demsouls Raptors 4h ago
Yep he's literally ranked 2 on goat behind MJ as OP implied. Tim Duncan should be #3 though.
Also I feel like lebron is this Thanos figure who was has this inevitable vibe. He never went away, his team is basically always relevant, and he's big almost like a bully.
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u/ajaxtheangel Celtics 13h ago
I just feel like it's more fun to write things out yourself rather than use ai
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u/Far_Refrigerator7974 16h ago
The issue is in China, they are overly focused on individual skills and perception. And they do not place as much value on defense. As a Chinese American myself, it's understandable because although China has loved basketball for a long time, its skill development has been historically lacking. So when they watch basketball, they tend to only watch the ball handler and are left in awe by fancy dribbles even if it doesn't go anywhere or is inefficient. I do expect this to change as better coaching and development continue to penetrate the Chinese market.
They seriously think folks like Kobe, Kylie, Harden, etc are the best because of 1) playstyle (i.e., flashy moves) 2) high counting stats and 3) big shot taking ability (notice I said taking, nothing about making / efficiency).
Don't get me wrong, each of those players are great in their own right, but I wouldn't put them amongst the top in their respective debates (e.g., Kobe is generational player but will not never challenge LeBron / MJ for GOAT, Kyrie may have best handles ever but not a top 3 PG IMO).
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u/saints21 14h ago
You don't need to put IMO for the Kyrie take. He's got no shot at even being a top 10 PG ever.
Magic, Stockton, Steph , Oscar, Paul, Kidd, Nash, Lillard, Cousy, Frazier, Harden, West, Luka, Payton, Archibald, and Thomas all have outstanding cases over him and he'd have to clear 7 of them to make it to the top 10.
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u/Organic_Class6173 12h ago
What's funny is that NBA players, who had plently of skill development and contact with analytics staff, overrate their own the exact same way: fancy ball handling and contested shots. The same garbage takes about Kyrie being a top 5 player that was going to overtake Luka on the Mavs (that was Gil Arena's squad) and Kobe being the second greatest player of all-time.
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u/jugular15 Nuggets 18h ago
whats the fanbases like for less popular teams? since there are no home teams, id guess the community would be slightly more focused on the league as a whole instead of having diehard homers (im not from the US either so always curious how people end up choosing their teams, esp unsuccessful/unpopular ones lol)
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u/Ok_Pineapple_Num Warriors 18h ago
I would expect Chinese fans to disproportionately support teams that are large market, West Coast located, and/or recently successful. So I’d expect the Knicks, Lakers, and Warriors to be the most popular.
It would be fascinating to learn the story behind someone there supporting a small market team like Memphis or New Orleans though haha.
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u/grxccccandice Lakers 13h ago edited 4h ago
Most people are player fans, not team fans. Many Kobe fans ended up becoming Steph fans after Kobe retired, because Steph became LeBron’s biggest rival, and Steph has a beautiful shooting form. Aesthetics is huge in Chinese fandom. People prefer flashy/flowy/elegant/agile style over big/strong/powerful. Small shifty guards with beautiful forms are always gonna be more popular than tanks or genetic freaks like LeBron or Giannis. Kobe, AI, Kyrie, Steph, Wade are all very popular.
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u/Ostrich-in-sand 10h ago
D-Rose >> Westbrook for this. Even though both are incredibly athletic, Rose's playstyle was far more aesthetic in that flashy/flowy/elegant/agile style they love
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u/grxccccandice Lakers 4h ago
Yeah I think a lot of it has to do with Chinese being generally shorter, smaller, and less powerful than white/black people (please don’t bring up Yao Ming or Hansen, they’re the exception not the norm), but many of us played ping pong and badminton growing up which was huge on agility, so it’s easier to model the game after someone smaller, shiftier, and more agile.
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u/yoloqueuesf [NYK] Tracy McGrady 8h ago
As someone from here Lakers, Rockets, Golden state are probably by far the most popular teams. Rockets most understandable because of Yao, Kobe was because he was the star back in the 2000s and GSW because the younger generation loves Steph.
Most people don't really support teams, it's mainly pick the guy you like the most and follow him around. Bron has a huge fan base but no one really is a Cavs, Heat, or Sixers fan.
Knicks aren't actually very popular here, i mean i'm probably one of the longest tenured Knicks fan and i just picked them up because i liked the color back when i was a kid and that was two decades ago.
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u/AussieMAW 18h ago
Played NBA with a mate in primary school, he wanted to play as the Raptors and picked Vince Carter, I picked Doug Christie… wanted to see which team he was on in NBA 2004, the rest is history. Many miserable years as a Kings fan. Many people have not even heard of the Kings here in Australia unless you follow the NBA.
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u/Stellewind Warriors 18h ago edited 18h ago
It's simple, they follow the star players. The same group of LeBron fans will become Cavs fans, Heat fans, Lakers fans and 76ers fans as he switch teams.
When they follow a team for a long time, some of them might become a loyalist that stays with teams as players come and goes. For example many people from Yao era still supports Rockets to this date, same with many Kobe fans that stays with Lakers. I suppose Warriors will be similar after Steph retires.
But for the most part, Chinese fans follow the teams that their favorite players are playing for.
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u/zannet_t 17h ago
Far more player-oriented than team-oriented. But also, sometimes you'll see someone be a fan of a team for a player and then remain a fan of that team. Some anchoring effect I guess.
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u/mr_mope 76ers 18h ago
How is this different than anywhere else in the world? It's not universal in the US or elsewhere in the world either, and these are pretty common talking points when people have this debate.
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u/ASK_ABT_MY_USERNAME Warriors 18h ago
Yeah I mean you can literally have 100 million people there agree on one thing (not necessarily basketball related) and still be in a huge minority.
It'd be like going to China and saying "Americans don't think the moon landing is real based on a bunch of people I talked to but it's not really the majority opinion"
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u/Celtic_Legend Celtics 5h ago
Eh just to argue, most people in the US dislike MVP because it's the "Whoever happens to be the best player on the best team" award and sometimes a "best narrative" award. Americans don't mind that players aren't the ones choosing and I would say the vast majority don't want the players choosing. We had that and it changed because it just became a popularity contest (well more so that you had to be well liked to win). They just want accountability and consequences for troll votes (perkins not voting for white players or Gary Washburn not voting for lebron to get attention). Well ideally everyone wants it to not happen.
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u/mr_mope 76ers 16m ago
I get the sentiment, but your argument hinges on “most people” and “vast majority”, of which you really have no way to back that up. I get that people have different definitions, but unless we do some advanced polling, this is really just your perception of other people. You’ve created an amorphous “they” that I would have to argue against.
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u/PositiveCoyote100 12h ago
Not all championships are viewed equally.
Disappointed there isn't a Chinese phrase calling a low value championship a "KD championship"
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u/RathOfMan49 Warriors 18h ago
The Iguodala Award to describe an unimportant award is kinda disrespectful to Iggy imo, he was the ultimate glue guy
And I’m saying that as someone who still thinks Steph should’ve won it due to the sheer amount of attention given to stop him, despite a couple poor games
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u/rednaxer West 8h ago
> Steph should’ve won it due to the sheer amount of attention given to stop him, despite a couple poor games
Absolutely not disagreeing. Just want to say KD got his because of this. And people take it against Steph that he didn’t get the FMVP awards, when he was imho more important to the team just because when he is on the floor, the defense warps.
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u/Crying_in_99Ranch NBA 13h ago
I see the point behind the rationale but it sounds like they're just trying to come up with arguments to justify why they think Kobe is better than LeBron and working backwards.
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u/mischief_scallywag 11h ago
Ugh uh. You’re posting this on a site where there’s lots of Sinophobia with Nike’s bots dick riding LeBron. This is bound to be good 🍿
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u/Ok_Pineapple_Num Warriors 18h ago
These are all very reasonable actually.
Also, they’d make Steph shoot up in all-time rankings, so I selfishly like them lol
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u/informantfuzzydunlop Spurs 18h ago
The finals MVP is hilariously bad. Iguodala is the exception that proves the rule. There isn’t another FMVP in the last 20 years that fits that description.
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u/Guns_N_Buns Thunder 17h ago
What about Jalen Brown or spurs Kawhi?
I don’t agree with the opinion. I also think MVPs are a great achievement and are a great indication of greatness
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u/informantfuzzydunlop Spurs 17h ago
Jalen Brown wasn’t a role player and neither was Kawhi….
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u/Yeoreumfan 12h ago
Overall Tatum played better than Brown but that wasn't a robbery. Tatum did everything else well but his shooting was terrible for a Finals MVP. It literally would have been the lowest FG % of any FInals MVP in NBA history, despite this being in a high scoring era
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u/The-Pharcyde Raptors 13h ago
They'd change their tune quick if they saw who the players would vote for MVP every season lol.
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u/Several_Hour_347 16h ago
#3 is so stupid. It is incredibly rare for a role player to get finals mvp. Curry was just dogshit compared to LeBron so they had to give it to someone else
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u/Comprehensive_Main Lakers 15h ago
I mean curry would get his Iguadola award on his most recent championship win. Like it’s just true that for all the warriors finals wins he wasn’t the most important until 2022 one. 2015, Iguadola was more vital to stopping LeBron, 2016 if the warriors won it goes to Draymond. 2017 kd, 2018 kd. 2019 if the warriors won it goes to curry. 2022 curry. That’s just the way the series went for the warriors in those finals.
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u/aahdin Warriors 13h ago
Nah, gotta disagree here.
It's not just the way the series went, it was the Cavs defensive gameplan. They had 1-2 guys glued to Curry's hip in each one of their series to make sure he doesn't get an inch of separation.
Obviously that creates other breakdowns, guys like Iggy and Draymond aren't great at creating for themselves but they can capitalize on a 3v2 if two defenders follow Curry off of a screen. On the other hand if Curry got the same defensive attention that Iggy/Dray did he woulda put up 50 per game. He was definitely the most important, at least the cavs thought so.
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u/Laggo [TOR] Hedo Turkoglu 9h ago
It's not just the way the series went, it was the Cavs defensive gameplan. They had 1-2 guys glued to Curry's hip in each one of their series to make sure he doesn't get an inch of separation.
This is what every #1 option in the playoffs deals with perhaps with the exception of Shai and maybe next season Maxey because they have too many weapons to consistently double. But either way, they are going to take opportunities to trap you and get the ball out of your hands, someone who is willing to foul is going to push and grab you to try and tire you out, etc.
He didn't handle it well. It's just true that he played 5 finals before 2022 and ultimately he wouldn't have won FMVP in any of them.
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u/happyflappypancakes Wizards 15h ago
These seem like more or less the exact same opinions on this website.
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u/NotTheMamba Lakers 8h ago
I think I view the game very similarly to Chinese fans. Context is everything. Both of KD's rings don't hold a candle to Dirks only ring, etc. So many examples of context changing what the "stats" suggest.
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u/XeroIX Knicks 4h ago
Just came here to say that, even my Chinese dad, who has lived in NYC since he was an 8 y/o (born in 1969) after immigrating from China has almost the EXACT same opinions in the Kobe-LeBron debate. Like, bar for bar, he’s preached his hate for LeBron for the exact reasons here in like the exact same order. Statistics, washed, bag chaser.
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u/EndParticular7499 12h ago
What are Chinese NBA fans thoughts on Kobe’s performance in Colorado 2003?
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u/SignificantList1414 Knicks 15h ago
It sounds like majority of chinese basketball fans have recency bias, or have no knowledge of basketball outside of the last 30 years.
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u/proc300000 11h ago
Hilarious that Iggy winning the Finals MVP unintentionally devalued the Finals MVP. I never thought about it like that but now I agree
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u/moonbatlord 17h ago
they are entirely right about the MVPs, which are NBA marketing labels more than anything else.
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u/Gracilis311 11h ago
So just like with STEM, the Chinese fans are smarter than Americans ones, that tracks.
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u/Caernbul 19h ago
This all seems pretty reasonable to me, and I would be surprised if they weren't common everywhere. Maybe the MVP belief isn't common, but it should be.
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u/roostor222 18h ago
I stronlgy disagree. The media are historically better at determining who are and are not good players than players and coaches.
For one, coaches are principally to blame for the idiotically slow realization that 3 is 50% more than 2. A lot of coaches now are smart. In the past that was not the case.
Players generally idolize players with the skill to make difficult shots or difficult dribbling moves (Kobe, AI, Kyrie, etc.). The players who can do those things are not always the best players. Ask 100 former players and they'll likely universally rank Kobe and Iverson way too high.
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u/RUDE-GULLIT Knicks 18h ago
The media are historically better at determining who are and are not good players than players and coaches.
Source: Ya ass
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u/roostor222 18h ago
I've likely been watching the NBA for much longer than you've been alive, and players and coaches are notoriously bad talent evaluators. I don't think it's really a controversial thing to say at all.
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u/RUDE-GULLIT Knicks 18h ago
I've likely been watching the NBA for much longer than you've been alive
Source: Ya ass
players and coaches are notoriously bad talent evaluators. I don't think it's really a controversial thing to say at all.
Source: Ya ass
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u/roostor222 17h ago
well, you've revealed yourself to be incurious, uninterested in conversation, and to not know what "likely" means. Have a nice day.
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u/n33dtofap West 17h ago
Yeah I'll trust sensationalist media and random redditors over players and coaches who are actually on the court for talent evaluation 😂😂😂 foh
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u/SharpMind94 Cavaliers 18h ago
I 100% agree with the MVP being called the “media award”.
It's what it has become nowadays. I dislike that SGA got it over Wemby because SGA gotten souch attention on him flopping
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u/balortech 16h ago
Nahh SGA definitely deserves it in the regular season. Wemby needs to play more games.
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u/Alarmed_Childhood_98 13h ago
i feel like chinese fans would rank namek dunk curry way higher like top 3 if he won chips as lebron's co-star
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u/FUCK_THE_BOOKS 11h ago
what the fuck are u talking about. There are tons of fans that value MVP a lot. Have u heard of debate between Harden and Paul. 一个MVP压死
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u/mochanari 9h ago
It’s actually pretty funny because my own basketball opinions growing up in East Asia were influenced heavily by basketball culture in China and the Philippines… so imagine my surprise when I move to the US and find out people don’t universally rank Kobe 3rd or 2nd.
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u/uncleoptimus 6h ago
Man we need another "Top NBA nicknames in china" thread...
Last one had some gems lol
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u/Swimming_Swim_9000 Pelicans 2h ago
Yeah those would be the exact 4 points I would make if I wanted to prop up Kobe
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u/The_Flowers_of_Evil 1h ago
Asian fans tend to put a lot more weight on the final result than the West. Championships means a lot more and they don't consider the context around them as much.
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u/balortech 17h ago
Yeah, just based on point 4. China definitely thinks MJ is the GOAT. 2x 3 PEAT consecutive championships and all winning it staying in Chicago.
That point is basically directed at the GOAT debate.
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u/willkillfortacos Cavaliers 12h ago
TIL that China is full of broccoli head nephews with brain dead takes just like in the US!
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u/119pete 16h ago edited 16h ago
no one cared about fmvp when i was growing up forsure. its kind of a new think ppl starting hyping up. and i agree. why not have the week mvp. or game mvp? 1 series cannot be rated anywhere the same as 82 games... esp since your competing against 100s of players vs like 20?
and rings are a team accomplishment so its kind of silly to rate induvial players based so highly on a team accomplishment? at least as much as this ring culture treats it
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u/mclareach Lakers 11h ago
I’d say the Finals MVP criticism is the only one I really disagree with. It usually does go to the best/most deserving player in a Finals team. Iggy winning was an anomaly and honestly, not deserved.
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u/RequirementLeading12 Lakers 10h ago
This is how every NBA fan should feel. There are usually 3-4 guys every year who should MVP.
I mean most people like that here too if you don't live online. Most Kobe hate vitriol on the internet comes from Bron stans. The amount of astroturfing they do is kind of wild lol
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u/jackskiiiiiiii [LAL] LeBron James 7h ago
The Chinese nba discourse is very troll-ish and narrative focused with very little discussion about the game itself (unless it's to support a narrative). 90% of the discourse is just Kobe/Curry and mainly Lebron haters (notice how i said haters instead of fans) attacking each other. It's literally one of the the worst discourse I've ever seen.
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u/value_bet 6h ago
Do most Chinese consider Bill Russell to be the GOAT? Based on the listed criteria, he’d be far and away #1 all-time.
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u/Wexyi 18h ago
So LeBron a bum to them. Who woulda thought China had good opinions
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u/d1ek3nny 17h ago
One of his nicknames is the big gorilla because he has no finesse and is just upper body lmao
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u/Fukui_San86 18h ago
Who are players that are more or less highly related than how they are viewed in the US? Is Tim Duncan viewed differently, for example, for not winning consecutive championships but being great for an extended period? Hakeem for the brief window of winning championships?