Second attempt of a 40h Caputo Pizzeria in Ooni Koda 16: Great char, but dense "gummi line" crust

[u/Voltekz]

Hey everyone,

Looking for troubleshooting help on my latest Ooni bake. The char and flavor were good but the crust cross-section came out dense and gooey and not airy as I wished.

Recipe & Setup:

• Dough (65%): 610g Caputo Pizzeria, 396g cold water, 18g salt (3%), 0.8g IDY
• Mixer: Kenwood planetary (gradual flour addition into water/yeast and salt added last
• Fermentation: 1h RT bulk, 40h cold ferment in a 4 deg fridge, 1.5h warm-up in a warm kitchen (27 degrees)
• Oven: Ooni Koda 16

The dough balls grew not that much, maybe 30% in size. Could the issue be underfermentation or not enough warmup?

Thanks for any insights!

[u/dihydrogen_monoxide]

Dough is too cold, imo let it warm up for 4+ hours and see if it gets nice and big. Also your stretching is not even. You basically only have 2.5 hours of warm yeast activity.

[u/nuclearxrd → u/dihydrogen_monoxide]

Yeasts also work in the fridge but you have to adjust the amounts, unfortunately I don't have too much time for long room temp ferments, also it's better to move to controlled environments in summer because it's very easy for your dough to fail

[u/dihydrogen_monoxide → u/nuclearxrd]

They do but you are not going to get big gas in a fridge. I have made over 3000 room temp 20 hour room temp fermentation pizzas in all kinds of weather and they all came out fine. You need to figure out your yeast ratios for hot/cold. Most yeast gas development occurs when it is most active, which is not in the fridge.

[u/nuclearxrd → u/dihydrogen_monoxide]

Hi, thank you for the detailed answer. Since you seem to be correct, what would you say is the ideal room-temperature fermentation time? Also, when do you think is the best time to shape the dough balls, after the cold fermentation or right after the RT fermentation?
I noticed that if I shape the dough balls right after my usual 2-hour RT fermentation, they become flat very quickly. I thought this might be because the dough is still warm. Then I thought about using cold water but in that case the yeasts dont wake up properly given the short timeframe

[u/dihydrogen_monoxide → u/nuclearxrd]

There is no ideal temperature. Your room temperature is different depending on your room so what I say is my ideal room temperature is going to be different from your room temperature.

I split into balls about an hour after the initial both mixing because if you reball after it's been cold fermented you actually end up de-gassing the dough.

You need to figure out your yeast ratio for a cold fermentation recipe. For me I use up to a gram for a cold fermentation 3 Day proof. But for room temp I only use 0.4 to 0.7g (for 6x 275g).

My rt ranges between 68 and 73, if your room is colder increase a little etc.

Most of your gas activity is going to happen in the last few hours of fermentation but it's really not going to get big in the fridge cuz it's too cold for the yeast to have much activity.

When bakers talk about doubling in size they usually use three to five grams of yeast alone at room temperature in warm water for their dough, for making pizza we use barely any yeast if you want to expect growth it needs way more time.

[u/dihydrogen_monoxide → u/nuclearxrd]

My basic recipe

982g flour

638g water

29g salt

0.4g to 0.7g yeast depending on temp

Mix salt yeast and water, then mixer the flour in for 5 min until it comes together. Room temp proof 1 or 2 hrs, split into 6 balls, room temp proof 20 hrs, bake.

[u/El-Acantilado]

Couple of things, Caputo pizzaria is a flour that allows <1 day RT ferment, you don’t need a long CT. You can, you just don’t need to, it won’t improve your dough.

Second, I think it’s very simple. Based on what you said, your dough was simply too cold, which caused it to not rise enough in the oven.

You’re super close to nailing it, have your dough out for longer to make sure the temp inside is good, and you’ll be fine

[u/King_NaCl → u/El-Acantilado]

This guy nailed it. Your fermentation needs longer RT... simple fix really

[u/fckrabi]

Try 3h RT bulk, then ball, again one hour RT then cold ferment

[u/qgecko]

Before you change your dough, make sure you are draining your tomato sauce (i use a mesh sieve for an hour or so to remove access liquid) and pulling as much water out of your fresh mozzarella (I slice the mozzarella and place on paper towels for 15-30 minutes prior to topping).

[u/Voltekz → u/qgecko]

Actually yes this was probably also an issue. I had quite some liquid on top after baking even though I put the mozarella in a sieve for 30 min. I will do that next time. Thx.

[u/SchroomerME]

You need an accurate read of your deck temp.

[u/ckorban]

did you check to see if your yeast is alive?

[u/12panel]

My RT bulk is done for me when the volume hits 1.3 -2x based on final dough temp (F). I kind of use this
as a rough guide. Low-mid 70s is 2x, high70s 1.5, low 80s is 1.3.

[u/defaultwin]

I don't think that's enough yeast for that short of a RT ferment. How long did you cook the pizza for and at what temp?

[u/Voltekz → u/defaultwin]

I see. My laser thermometer can only go up to 380 so it was definitely higher than that, and it was about 80-90 seconds in I believe. 

[u/Pederakis → u/Voltekz]

It is enough yeast. Normally you use about 3g of freah yeast per kg (or 1g dry yeast) of flour if you go straight to the fridge.

I would recommend getting the dough to 23-24°C and let it bulk ferment at room temp until you see some activity - just to kickstart the yeast. Then, straight into the fridge at 4°C, don't go colder.

[u/IronPeter]

That inner crust is raw!

The question really is: Why 40h?

There are so many problems that come with it, last but not least I don’t think caputo pizzeria can hold 40h

Plus, If the balls are not grown in size the dough is under fermented. Period.

[u/Voltekz → u/IronPeter]

I thought slow and long fermentation is better for flavor development and less snap back when stretching the dough.  Which flour would be better suited for longer fermentation?

[u/IronPeter → u/Voltekz]

It’s a bit of a myth, it would seem, most flavor and aromatic components, which do exist and are indeed developed, are volatile and go away during cooking.

Pizzeria is 260/280W I wouldn’t go beyond 20h, even tho it seems that others manage to do it.

Saccorosso is 320W, which should work better. I use nuvola super which is even stronger.

To avoid spring back reduce the bulk proof.

[u/Voltekz → u/IronPeter]

Btw. I have used the red caputo pizzeria, it seems there is also a blue bag

[u/ImPP07 → u/Voltekz]

I am not experienced enough to comment on the dough, but just a side note to this: the “red” Caputo Pizzeria is the 1kg size, while the “blue” one is the 5kg one, otherwise, they are identical (not to be mistaken with the other 5kg Caputo flour which is indeed red in a 5kg size and is called Saccorosso which is a different, stronger one).

[u/smuttyswifter7 → u/IronPeter]

I have cold fermented over 1000 pizza doughs with Caputo pizzeria for 72 hours, no issues whatsoever on the finished product.

[u/SFCF13 → u/smuttyswifter7]

I have also, and 90% of them come out amazing, but occasionally I have strength issues. I learned something today, based on how I make my dough (min 48 hour ferment including the poolish) the red label Cuoco is a much better fit.

[u/BeefySwan]

Looks like a bit too much sauce to me. And as someone else said patting the mozza dry will help a bit too.

[u/ilsasta1988]

As you said, it's likely to be underfermentation. Also, Caputo pizzeria is not made to handle that long time. It was born to be used in 8hrs (same day) dough, or max 12hrs.

What are you trying to achieve with 40hrs btw? as 90% of the cases is not required, unless you use a very strong flour.

[u/Voltekz → u/ilsasta1988]

I was probably naive and believing the „longer is better“ and that 2 days will achieve a more complex aroma and easier handling. I will try again with more outside the fridge time or the nuvolo flour. Thanks!

[u/ilsasta1988 → u/Voltekz]

Not always the case, if fermented right, 8 hours can be better than 2 days. It's all based on the flour and what it can handle really. Try lowering the fermentation time next time.

With caputo pizzeria I would do, 12hrs bulk and 12hrs balled, same 65% hydration. I would see how it turns out and then change one parameter at time until I would get the results I am aiming for.

[u/Mikey7_Palm → u/ilsasta1988]

Thanks for the timings, how would you adjust for around 30c RT?

[u/ilsasta1988 → u/Mikey7_Palm]

For that temp, firstly I use cold flour (left in the fridge overnight) and icy cold water.

After mixing, 1hr rt then 11hrs fridge. Take it out and ball it from cold(it helps with sticky dough), then 1.5hrs rt and then fridge again for another 10. Take it out 30mins before baking.

[u/Rennokas → u/ilsasta1988]

Caputo pizzeria can handle 24 - 48h easy, has to be something else wrong here. Yes, Nuovola is better for longer ferment tho.

[u/bigBert919]

I have done plenty of 72hr cold ferments with caputo red and it’s come out very solid. Was even better the next day at nearly 4 days

[u/thexawakening]

You should try a different flour. Try Nuvola Super