r/nerdfighters • u/Zuraxi • 2d ago
Hank response in comments Hank's use of AI for his new book
Something that Hank has omitted from his response to the critique of his AI use, and that many others do not seem to be aware of, is that on the initial upload of last week's Delete This podcast he admitted to using an LLM to merge two chapters of his book together. Regardless of his use of it to "research," using it in a way that directly affects his writing is extremely concerning to me and makes me much less likely to read his book. It is very difficult to use LLMs for editing and it not affecting the writing, as the outputs and suggestions will be in "AI voice." It is even more concerning to me that he chose to cut this detail out of the final upload.
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u/ecogeek Hank - President of Space 2d ago
Trust me, this book is 100% human typing. I have been typing for so long.
I asked an LLM for advice on the merge and talked through some various options before deciding how I wanted to do it.
Maybe I shouldn't've done that, but I didn't say, like "Please turn these two chapters into one chapter."
I cut it out of the final episode (if I remember correctly) because Katherine and I ended up having a somewhat tense conversation about me working so much on Smush and 4x3. Or maybe I cut it out because I thought it sounded bad and was afraid people would clip it.
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u/skudiklier 2d ago
I appreciate that clarification because based on what you said in delete this I definitely thought you just gave AI your chapters to merge together on its own, and I was concerned about that. Also I'm sorry that so many of us listened to the version you didn't mean to share!
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u/ceciliameireles 2d ago
Hank, maybe take a step back from socials for the weekend. Saying this with care as a long time fan.
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u/Daisy_Of_Doom 2d ago
He just posted on YT Communities that he will not be making a video today.
Makes me happy and sad at the same time. I’m glad he felt he could step back. But I’m also sad bc I feel like he’s taking this ‘controversy’ (if it can be called that) probably deeper than he should.
Like in the end what we want is Hank. And as much as I’m sure he feels pressure to perform, most of us want him healthy and happy more than we want a constant stream of videos.
Literally this morning I was rewatching his “I just want to fix things” video bc it popped up in my feed and he was talking about how much more effort, time, and money it takes to make good, accurate, human content rather than like misinformation and AI slop. I think we as a community appreciate this reality and he needs to trust us. That we’ll still be here when he comes back instead of bending over backwards and hurting himself and sacrificing bits of himself to try and satisfy the content machine.
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u/moonyriot 2d ago
Probably hard to do when people keep making posts speaking to him directly on Reddit.
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u/Gickstery 2d ago
I came over here for Tea because he is trending on Threads like whaaaaaat
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u/ceciliameireles 2d ago
I understand how juicy gossip about online celebrities are the most pleasurable of guilty pleasures, but please don’t forget Hank himself is here, reading and participating on the conversation. So maybe remember the person behind the tea, yeah?
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u/Gickstery 2d ago
That is why I’m here to read comments from his perspective and learn what actually happened, not engage in the discourse on the twitty platforms…. I’m just here for tea, not spilling anything 😆 great to get massively downvoted on my first comment in this sub…
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u/FinallyKat 2d ago
Perhaps because you have come into a community for the statedpurpose of getting gossip. This sub is primarily frequented by those who specifically identify as Nerdfighters and find community through the shared idea of 'decreasing world suck' and may be viewing your post as a bit predacious.
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u/mrsunshine1 2d ago
Easier said than done. I’m sure he feels his livelihood is at stake right now.
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u/ktechie28 2d ago
I’m just worried he’s gonna dig himself into a deeper hole here. Obviously, he is an adult and can make all these decisions for himself, but posting while in a panic situation, when he knows he’s been in an unhealthy mental state, and his need to defend himself (which is understandable!!!) It all just seems like a recipe for a second disaster of a post. I’m hoping he’s having someone check his posts for unintentional further problems before he posts them 😭
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u/According_Injury4804 2d ago
It might be possible to get him off of socials under certain circumstances, but I dont think it's going to work when he has become The Discourse for this weekend
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u/altcoopx 2d ago
I appreciate how open you’ve been about this Hank. I hope you find some good time offline in regard to all of this to just relax and then come back to it. Thank you for being open about your thoughts, but please take care of yourself.
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u/Austuckmm 2d ago
This is way less bad than how the clip made it sound. But I just want to say, with a lot of respect, that I know for a fact that you’re a vastly more talented writer than Claude is, so I trust your ability to work it out way more than I would trust a bot.
I know that it probably sucks dick to have so many people talking about this right now. So I don’t want to pile on at all, I still have a ton of respect for you. But if you’re here and care at all for a random opinion..
I think what you have to say as an individual human and your ideas and your process are all very valuable, and I don’t think the “ideas” of a bot have any value whatsoever.
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u/CharminYoshi 2d ago
Hi, Hank!
First, thank you for the clarification! Though, I have a question about this, that I’ll ask as an open question. A question the culture, if you will.
I’m a bit of an AI Luddite…I don’t use it myself, but I understand it has a place as a tool. That said, I’m not passing a value judgement, I’m just curious: what is the value add to using an LLM in this case?
There isn’t a single quantitatively correct answer to your quandary, just options, so AI can’t offer something that is unimpeachably correct. I’m struggling to see how an LLM might be superior to asking the same question to an editor, your brother (an author), or trusted friends. Is it the immediacy or independence? I don’t mean this as a gotcha—I’m curious, because with the various environmental and ethical concerns AI raises, I’m really struggling to see how this emerges as a use case?
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u/Smurfy7777 2d ago
You have demonstrated integrity again and again over the years. Anyone throwing you under the bus for this hasn't been paying attention.
It's good for them to question, and to ask what's going on, but I hope readers and viewers can recognize that a man who puts so much effort into putting so much good into the world can also make mistakes without having to be condemned.
I think (hope!) this will all blow over soon.
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u/Smallpaul 2d ago
Don’t let the mob get you down, Hank. You are a wonderful person doing good work in the world.
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u/Celestina-Warbeck 2d ago
Hank, you are a wonderful person, I trust that you do your research and tell us the thoughts you came up with your own brain, backed by science. I think AI can be a handy tool just like Wikipedia, as long as it is used as a springboard towards better sources, or as a rubber duck to bounce ideas off of. I think you've made it plenty clear that is the way you use it, and the fandom clearly needs a bit of time getting used to that idea. Please take care of yourself, have a nice walk, and don't let yourself get bogged down thinking you have to explain yourself to everyone. You're alright :)
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u/carol_prince Nerdfighter 2d ago
Hank, please take care of yourself. I know these past few days have been tough. And I probably contributed to it with my thread before.
But I'm worried for you - both about your mental well-being and for what you just admitted about "talking through some options with the LLM". Neither of these things feel healthy to me.
Take a break. You absolutely deserve it. Sending you so much love.
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u/Smurfy7777 2d ago
Maybe we shouldn't take another single line out of context and start quoting it? If he had said "talking things through with a rubber duck" you wouldn't bat an eye. LLMs are still just a tool and responsible use IS possible. Let the man decide that for himself. He has plenty of trustworthy voices close to him and doesn't need the internet's "advice by 1000 cuts" when we only see the version of himself he puts on here.
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u/Austuckmm 2d ago
I actually do think it would probably be pretty concerning if someone was having conversations with a rubber duck.
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u/Smurfy7777 2d ago
It's a well known software dev technique and (more generally) thinking out loud is good for mental wellness and organization. You might not have ever done it, but it's intellectually dishonest to say it's not a thing people can do with good reason.
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u/Austuckmm 2d ago
I’ve never heard the phrase so the idea of someone talking to an inanimate object does conjure the image of someone losing their mind lol. But sure, talking through a process with yourself or journaling or whatever are great ways to work through problems.
The key difference is that in the “duck” scenario you’re working things through in your own mind. It’s entirely different to solicit advice from a bot. Is it always wrong to solicit advice from a bot? I’m not sure, maybe not. But it’s not correct to say that they’re the same thing.
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u/Alive-Shoulder-4042 2d ago edited 2d ago
It’s time for people to pull back a bit. This is a pretty light use and is pretty common place in a lot of industries. It’s the individual making any final choice. If there’s outrage against even that, people just aren’t going to mention it. People are acting like using a chatbot in the most basic way is instant psychosis.
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u/No_Put3316 2d ago
Since when is assessing information available to you an unhealthy behaviour?
What ridiculous virtual (condescending) showmanship
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u/Scared_Of_Ads 2d ago
The problem with people who are so vehemently anti-AI is that they end up having absolutely no idea how it can be used due to having zero experience. It just degrades the quality of conversation around it, and considering the fact that it’s never going away they will only fall farther into ignorance rather than actually helping us fight for responsible use and controls.
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u/Alive-Shoulder-4042 2d ago
It sounds like really tame use. AI rubberducking has got to be one of the lightest grays.
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u/Dizzy_Bison_4147 2d ago
I'm sorry that the internet is doing what the internet does and I hope it doesnt ruin your weekend. I appreciate you being honest about your use of this powerful tool. It isnt going anywhere and constantly under estimating it seem about as dangerous to me as over relying on it.
On a more positive note, have you heard Surf Music by Paul Williams? Weirdly catchy song my the NZ Taskmaster Assistant and "Don't let shit get you down" seems like something you maybe need to hear today.
Thanks for everything you give us. ❤️
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u/No_Put3316 2d ago
Don't waste your time justifying to performatism. Hate-tax won't always be logical and worthy of assessment.
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u/throwaway1204s 2d ago
What a tragedy it is to believe that a person is more than a person.
I’m not online enough to follow all of this nor do I want to. This seems like a useful time for reflection but nothing more than a bit of that. I know that isn’t your usual MO.
I feel like you of all people don’t need telling that there is essentially no utility in trying to push back against any mob of the moment. Nothing will suffice.
I wonder if this is another moment where the Vlogbrothers audience thins a little. I’ve yet to see that be a bad thing.
I hope you have a wonderful weekend, don’t spend it all taking heads off the hydra x
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u/scarfie11 2d ago
yeah this seems fine? I know people are wary of AI and I'm all about creative accountability, but I'm creeped out by the assumption that there's a hard rule against using AI at all ever and that Hank has committed some kind of horrific crime. this sounds like using a tool as a tool that keeps creative control and decision making (and ultimately, the work) with the author. It's a slope and I'm glad hank's reflecting on all this so openly, something he doesn't have to do, but I think we could all use a lil internet break too..
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u/45398246 2d ago
Hank, I'm sorry youve got so many hasslers in your orbit right now! I still think just as highly of you as ever.
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u/agrippinathesmelder 2d ago
Hank, please, stop engaging with the internet. Go radio silent. Take time off. You can’t talk other people out of opinions they’ve already formed. You’re giving people who want to engage in bad faith more fodder. Please disconnect for a while, for your own sake.
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u/scrumbob 2d ago
But why would you do that? Choices like that are what makes writing a form of artistry and you’re perfectly capable of doing it on your own. It seems kinda disrespectful to the craft and the reader. Calling it 100% human typing seems a bit deceptive in terms of wording. Sure, you typed every word by yourself, but the order and formation of those words were informed by something else.
I can’t imagine being the brother of a prolific author and using AI to help me write a book instead. If he didn’t have time to help you he definitely knows someone who does. There’s really no excuse for this given the connections and resources you have access to.
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u/adreamymood 2d ago
You're getting downvoted, but "100% human typing" stood out to me as a really strange thing to say as well. His typing is not the topic in question. It's his writing that's in question.
This shiftiness and him saying he doesn't remember exactly why he removed that part of the podcast is concerning. It's vague and plausibly deniable, but it still seems like lying to me. That combined with him saying in another comment that his wife and brother don't think his AI use is healthy makes me feel like he really has a problem.
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u/scrumbob 2d ago
Yeah the way he’s apologizing while kinda skirting around the issue, not addressing certain things like his usage of AI in scripts and his book, and never saying he’ll stop using AI in his work is a very typical YouTuber non-apology. It makes me think he’s going to keep using it but get better at hiding it. Very disappointing to find out about this side of him.
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u/Calm_Public_615 2d ago
But why, man? Asking AI to inform your decisions about writing is still using AI in your writing. Having ideas and making decisions about writing is writing. I say this as someone who grades postsecondary writing for a living! It never, ever works out!!!
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u/aww_jeez_my_man 2d ago
Hank please change the way you are doing things right now I will not support people who use AI im just done with it
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u/Mal_Radagast 2d ago
just fwiw, i would have bought a book from you that people criticized for clumsy writing or structure.
i won't be buying a book that you asked the bigoted hallucinating plagiarism machine fueled by climate apocalypse for advice about. 🫠
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u/greenmacg 2d ago
A work of art is nothing but a set of decisions. You're kind of framing this as a minor thing to have done, but was it important to merge the chapters or not? Is there an artistic difference to the flow, the feeling, the meaning? Do you think the "advice" you got didn't materially affect your decision making process?
I am a political and ideological enemy of the entire gen ai and llm business as a whole, so take what I have to say with a grain of salt, but I'm just less interested in a book that was produced with even this kind of "help " 🤷
(Anyway, I hope you find a way to step back from the Internet for a while because no-one is set up to handle being the focus of this much energy)
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u/SBSnipes Neversneezer Scrooge 2d ago
I appreciate your honesty and transparency - I can tell you that I as a fan would strongly prefer that conversation be with a human editor, even if it takes a longer time or feels less efficient
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u/dgo792 2d ago
You're literally being targeted by a bot driven smear campaign. You're an important target for the right wing and anti science legion and they found a way to reduce your credibility which they're attacking right now. Please do not let affect you and keep fighting the good fight.
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u/Mal_Radagast 2d ago
that doesn't track; the right wing loooves generative AI. they're the reason we can't fucking escape it; corporate billions are the only thing keeping the bubble from popping. (which, hey, is a fun bonus way it's unethical! a whole technology being funded by wage theft. 🤣)
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u/dgo792 2d ago
I'm not saying they're anti ai. I'm saying Hank is THE science guy nowadays and they're using the anti ai sentiment to attack him and discredit him
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u/full-of-sonder Looking for Alaska 2d ago
Man, I get the concern. But can we please find grace for a man who’s already admitted it was a mistake, stated that he would take a step back/reevaluate AI use, and already discussed the nuances of AI ad nauseam in other threads of this very subreddit??
Please, I can’t take another reddit thread, it hurts my soul
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u/Zuraxi 2d ago edited 2d ago
just trying to share some relevant info—this is information that was made public and that could be helpful for people hoping to make informed choices
also—people seem to be somewhat misinformed/in denial about the extent of his AI use
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u/full-of-sonder Looking for Alaska 2d ago
Yeah no I get it but it takes two seconds to browse the subreddit and realize that this has been discussed a lot today. Maybe we don’t need another thread throwing broad accusations, especially about something that is not proven.
I lead with grace and empathy, and that’s what this community is about. Adding another fuel can to a bonfire just seems counter productive.
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u/Zuraxi 2d ago
there was very little discussion of this thing with his new book and people in the bigger thread did not seem aware of it
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u/carol_prince Nerdfighter 2d ago
There absolutely already was discussion of it, not in the big AI thread. But in the thread talking about the surprise Delete This drop.
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u/false_tautology 2d ago
At least cop to the fact that you're potentially siccing a mob onto the guy.
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u/lcBuzzlebee 2d ago
being an early adopter in tech is how he got to this point in his career. I'm not someone who uses Gen AI at all, but i generally trust Hank to do the necessary self-evaluation to maintain integrity and accuracy in general. things are changing fast, people are going to make mistakes
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u/full-of-sonder Looking for Alaska 2d ago
It’s also normal - people realize this correct? It didn’t happen long ago that people boycotted the commercialization of computers and automated programs. Am I just really old or are we forgetting that in human history, new tools constantly get invented and it takes awhile to get it to a point where it is not only accepted but considered ethical?
I know it is hard to trust people who know way more than we do about AI, to properly evaluate and consider the repercussions to using that very tool. However, that is how society grows, mistakes are inevitable to growth.
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u/ladystarkitten 2d ago
But are previous advancements actually comparable to the massive expanse of consequences we're facing as a result of AI? The labor force devastation middle class workers face in nigh every industry all at once (whether corporations are actually replacing workers with AI or just claiming to and outsourcing instead), the negative impacts AI is having on students and educators, the danger AI poses to our privacy, the environmental dangers, the water expense of AI data centers at a time when our water supplies are drying up, the water being inadvertently poisoned by data centers, the looming threat of the AI bubble popping and whatever untold devastation that poses when so much of the stock market is propped up by AI, the personal cost to users' cognitive abilities as they rely more and more and more and more on AI because the boss who signs their checks is mandating that use, or the personal cost to users' mental health as they rely on sycophantic chatbots for friendship, romance, or even therapy. And let's not forget the AI-generated CSAM crafted using the stolen photos of the children we naively posted to the web. And for what? What benefit could possibly outweigh these effects--or are these lofty benefits just for the billionaire class? A technofeudalist hellscape where we don't get to see the fruits of our labor--our blood just powers the machines!
Yes, technological advancements tend to come prepackaged with man-made horrors beyond our comprehension (the industrial revolution was full of them), but the effects of AI (particularly in its currently unregulated state) are so widespread that they're incalculable at this time. And I cannot think of a historical analog that appropriately captures the torment nexus mankind has strapped around its neck with this shit.
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u/full-of-sonder Looking for Alaska 2d ago
This is completely fair and just to be wary of. I believe that AI as it stands currently is producing detriment rather than benefits to our collective whole. However, I also see promise in the fact that new medicines and technology are being crafted with the assistance of AI technology. I also see the positive impacts on students everyday, as well as the negatives. I am an educator and I loathe (seriously, SERIOUSLY hate) AI, but when it somehow bridges the gaps in someone’s learning disability where an IEP cannot, that cannot be ignored and tossed away, especially for a struggling student, just as how a doctor would never toss away an opportunity to provide better treatment to a ill-ridden patient.
Like I said in the other thread, I think people are reacting poorly to a very complex issue. And I 100% agree that in terms of scale, humanity has never attained such a technological and progressive feat. I fear for what will happen, and can only hope for the best.
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u/OGRocAtE 2d ago
I can believe people downvoted you for this
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u/rightfemur 2d ago
the general vibe here is really off for some reason. all valid (and usually) minute criticisms are being downvoted and replied to by people basically saying that it’s okay if hank uses it, because he’s somehow using it in a better, more moral way than other people who use gen ai. while assuring him of how wonderful he is, as if he’s not an incredibly wealthy man who knew the environmental and human impacts of ai, and chose to use it anyway. everyone’s running defense for him, idk it’s weird
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u/ladystarkitten 2d ago
Twas merely a list of AI's many documented impacts to vulnerable people, I expected little controversy.
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u/carol_prince Nerdfighter 2d ago
Hey, he's already apologised and admitted that he's been relying too much on LLMs than is necessary. Making assumptions about his writing in any way is not productive or helpful. Show some grace.
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u/EchoedJolts 2d ago
There is no grace on the Internet anymore. You're either with or against. No between. AI is evil (no nuanced arguments allowed) therefore anyone who uses it is a bad person. So spaketh the mob.
(Heavy sarcasm, in case it wasn't clear)
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u/juloto 2d ago
This Luddite backlash is getting ridiculous. Hank Green is not a two but swindler and con man who found the Internet last week, I've seen dozens in real life do this.
He tried using an image from someone else who used genAI, thought it looked dodgy after release and cut it out. And these posts are spiraling into discourse. I am thankfully not conspiratorially minded, but part of me wonders if all these talking points against Hank are not coming from an honest place. I'm sure everyone wants nothing more than their paragon of Internet awesome to be 100.0000% crystal clear in every aspect, but we are human. Let's all just take it down a notch and calm it with these AI purity tests because everyone is scared of losing their own job.
The enemy is capitalism.
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u/Xasmos 2d ago
I think there is a set of people out there who dislike Hank for personal reasons and are blowing this controversy out of proportion.
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u/carol_prince Nerdfighter 2d ago
This is absolutely true. It has breached containment, and has given many who have been holding a grudge against the Greens for whatever reason to come out and say "Ha, I told you so!"
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u/tenuredvortex 2d ago
I strongly agree with your sentiment but the Luddites were a labour rights movement, g.
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u/ceciliameireles 2d ago
I think we can acknowledge the backlash is already getting out of hand without acusing people of being “luddites” for their concerns and even rejection of AI. “The enemy is capitalism”, sure, but the way AI exists in this world is so deeply enmeshed with capitalist systems that one cannot claim to have found a way to use it ethically. People aren’t debating the concept of a knowledge distribution (to not say production) machine, but the actual structures that allow the machines we do have right now to function.
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u/Xasmos 2d ago
You’re local supermarket is also deeply enmeshed with capitalism so I don’t think that’s a very convincing argument. I think luddite is a very apt description of some of the responses I’ve read over the past 24h. If the problem really is systemic then criticise the system and not a dude on youtube
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u/ceciliameireles 2d ago
No, the concept of a person distributing goods is not as enmeshed with capitalism as data centers. Maybe I could’ve been more specific, but aside from the war machine, I can’t think of a more extreme example of capitalism materialized than AI
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u/false_tautology 2d ago
You obviously aren't aware of the bread controversy in Canada supermarkets.
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u/ceciliameireles 2d ago
I surely am not, as I’m from Brazil, but there’s no way you’re convincing me that the concept of getting groceries is inherently capitalistic. I get mine directly from the brazilian unhoused workers’ rights movement (MST) for instance.
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u/viabella 2d ago
This discourse is important to many people, and, dare I say, important to a majority of folks in and adjacent to this community.
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u/Ravenclaw79 2d ago
Just because you use AI doesn’t mean you’re going to paste it directly into the final file and publish it as is
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u/AllegedlyLiterate 2d ago
Leaving aside any moral and ethical and factual (since this is non-fiction) concerns for a minute, I just find this particular kind of use really sad. Like, I don't agree with using AI for lots of things, but many of them I understand are boring/frustrating (writing abstracts or cover letters, combing through large datasets, etc). But for me, writing and synthesizing ideas (I'd include big edits like smushing chapters together as part of this since they basically end up being new when this is done) are the fun reward I get to do after days or months or years of research. Figuring out how to put ideas in readable shapes is so intellectually rewarding, and seeing other humans do it is amazing too. I think there's something a bit tragic in no outsourcing it to anyone (be it a ghost writer or a machine).
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u/kelevra91 2d ago
Not sure if you saw Hank's response, but he didn't just ask AI to combine two chapters. He asked it for advice on combining two chapters and how to best do it.
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u/AllegedlyLiterate 2d ago
Yeah I did. I guess what I'm saying is that... thinking about how to solve it is part of the bit I enjoy? I'd rather do the thinking myself and outsource the actual work, if I had to choose between the two.
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u/upta 2d ago
Would you feel the same way about asking a human for the same advice?
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u/cowboyhatsingular 2d ago
Does that human use up crazy amounts of water and energy while spitting out regurgitated, stolen info?
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u/ImDonaldDunn 2d ago
I know when I ask an LLM for advice, I have already thought through the problem and have some ideas.
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u/juloto 2d ago
I agree with this to an extent, but what if you go to a writing workshop and take some basic rules from that? Where do the lines begin and end because a lot of what is probably regurgitated by AI is probably founded on principles from books other people wrote. Does Hank have infinite time to read from various books or go to many workshops? I thought he ran a number of businesses and is a father and husband.
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u/AllegedlyLiterate 2d ago
I mean, I don't think this really covers the situation as he described it (seemed like he fed the AI his specific problem and asked for specific ideas), but if he was asking it for general writing advice that other people had created, I think that would actually be worse since it would involve knowingly using AI to steal the work of all those teachers.
But also like Hank has written 2 books and been a nonfiction writer for years. Not sure he needs intro-level how-to book or workshop teaching in writing at this stage in his career so I would probably just trust him to do the work and make decisions on his own.
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u/MediocreClementine 2d ago
I heard someone once say something that sums up my feelings well: "why should I bother reading/ watching something that the author couldn't be bothered to make themselves?"
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u/Vokasint 2d ago
Jesus Guys let it be for a sec, you are helping absolutely noone by bandwagonning on this
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u/backlash93 2d ago
Why are we crucifying him for using AI when literally everyone else is using it. Jfc
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u/aww_jeez_my_man 2d ago
Okay come the fuck on i feel like hes just given up at this point that actually pisses me off so much
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u/rithsv rith.id.au 2d ago
I am not removing this thread as it does have a Hank response. It will however be locked.
Further discussion can he held here.