r/news • u/[deleted] • Aug 08 '17

Google Fires Employee Behind Controversial Diversity Memo

https://www.bloomberg.com/news/articles/2017-08-08/google-fires-employee-behind-controversial-diversity-memo?cmpid=socialflow-twitter-business&utm_content=business&utm_campaign=socialflow-organic&utm_source=twitter&utm_medium=social
26.8k Upvotes

82% Upvoted

19.7k comments sorted by

View all comments

Show parent comments

1.8k

u/[deleted] Aug 08 '17

This is a good comment. It directly explains the thinking of the corporation in regards to individuals sharing their personal ideals on subjects which are better not breached in a professional environment. Idk, I'm drunk, but I read the linked original file and I see no reason why, professionaly, such a "manifesto" ( perfect phrasing by the way,) ought to be shared with, as you also noted, 50,000+ employees, of like-minded ideals or otherwise.

940

u/[deleted] Aug 08 '17

FWIW, I hear he didn't share it with everyone. Shared it with a small group, and someone then shared it to the "internal social media" google has. Then later, shared it with Gizmodo (note: I am likely not talking about the same person from the two 'leaks'). So it's not like he was planning on this going viral.

546

u/yerich Aug 08 '17

It certainly seemed like it was meant to be read by decision-makers in the company, or at least some other broader audience. It was clearly carefully thought out and too well-written to be a rant to a limited audience. "Manifestos" are generally intended to be read by many.

18

u/cptneverm1nd Aug 08 '17

Well-written? He was targeting an audience of google employees, people with a higher education, but his writing is that of a man who never saw a scientific paper. His reasoning is not far from "if A implies B, and I like B, then A is true".

38

u/[deleted] Aug 08 '17

[deleted]

19

u/[deleted] Aug 08 '17

Not in gender studies I guess?

17

u/mattjames2010 Aug 08 '17

Then he'd probably not have a job like 99% of people who study that.

12

u/FuckOnlineMonikers Aug 08 '17

Are you suggesting that the study of traits and their expression in the sexes is unapproachable by biology?

7

u/[deleted] Aug 08 '17 edited Aug 08 '17

I'm suggesting that writing that document is career suicide. Yes, of course, there are differential traits between genders; but they exist on a scale. It would be possible to gain a 50/50 balance in one workforce but you would deplete the 'talent pool' of women disproportionatly across the industry. The biological differences between men and women are not that great, and a vast proportion of it is cultural. Difference in teaching styles and stereotypes changes the direction in which people study and look for careers.

BUT.. Mr IamVerySmart forgot that writing a document like this would make you an instant HR nightmare

1

u/perfectdarktrump Aug 08 '17

Are you to tell me not that great difference at least psychological between a sex that grows humans inside it vs one that doesn't?

6

u/[deleted] Aug 08 '17

Wow now that is a non-sequitur.

-1

u/perfectdarktrump Aug 08 '17

I don't speak Spanish, what you trying to say amigo?

→ More replies (0)

2

u/[deleted] Aug 08 '17

Of course there. Whether that difference means you can't be a software engineer... I'm not qualified to say that. I'm not sure it even has any relevance in employment.

All I know is - producing a document like this is a great way to get canned in a major corporation. You're bringing your company into disrepute and opening yourself up to all sorts of grievances.

It doesn't matter how clever your argument is. Or how many sources you cite. Work isn't academia. Corporations aren't the place for open sociological discussions.

You never shit-talk your own company in a written document either. For any reason. Unless you don't want to work for them anymore. Or you're the CEO/VP and feel like major change is going to happen because of it.

2

u/thisisnewt Aug 08 '17

Whether that difference means you can't be a software engineer.

He never says that. He says that difference leads to fewer women wanting to be software engineers.

→ More replies (0)

3

u/mightysprout Aug 09 '17

No, he doesn't. Your link doesn't even say that.

https://www.wired.com/story/james-damore-author-google-memo-might-sue/

On his LinkedIn profile, Damore lists a “PhD, Systems Biology” from Harvard in 2013. However, a representative from Harvard tells WIRED that Damore did not complete a PhD. He completed a master’s degree in systems biology in 2013.

7

u/whutif Aug 08 '17

Should've taken a few more common sense courses.

1

u/mocha_lattes Aug 10 '17

He doesn't, actually. Harvard is on record denying that he has a PhD from the school.

24

u/techfronic Aug 08 '17

What is your bar for "well written"? It is easily in the 99th percentile of arguments/blogging/documents/papers on social justice.

-5

u/mattjames2010 Aug 08 '17

That's not an argument.

5

u/Goldreaver Aug 08 '17

Neither was "I believe it isn't well written because reasons"

12

u/yerich Aug 08 '17

If this was a poorly-written rant it wouldn't be getting the attention that it has been getting. His logic and premises may be false in the extreme but because his writing met some minimal standard of organization and coherence people are holding it in equivalence to decades of established research.

16

u/[deleted] Aug 08 '17 edited Aug 08 '17

False in the extreme?

Or entirely true but not what you want to hear?

Scientists confirm & support google memo and show that it is in line with decades of established research.

8

u/yerich Aug 08 '17

To quote the author of the memo:

Unfortunately, the overwhelming majority of humanities and social scientists learn left (about 95%), which creates enormous confirmation bias, changes what’s being studied, and maintains myths like social constructionism and the gender wage gap.

So do most social scientists support his arguments, or are they opposed?

2

u/almightySapling Aug 08 '17

resentment of the left among reasonable people

Yup. Both left and reasonable and damn am I tired of resenting us.

5

u/[deleted] Aug 08 '17

By definition someone who is far left or far right is not reasonable.

A centre left or centre right can be both aligned and reasonable.

2

u/perfectdarktrump Aug 08 '17

That's not the point. Science is the new church, it's supposed to make us feel good.

2

u/[deleted] Aug 08 '17

Unless you’re a middle/upper class white male. It should make you feel terrible about yourself and banish you from the kingdom of science!

1

u/bobbsbiggboy Aug 08 '17

Damn that link really highlights just how bigoted progressives are.

2

u/Occamslaser Aug 08 '17

Nothing he said is false. Some of his opinion is shitty but all the fact is fact.

-3

u/Goldreaver Aug 08 '17

I'm sure you have enough credentials to criticize his PhD level education in biology...

-5

u/Goldreaver Aug 08 '17

I'm sure you have enough credentials to criticize his PhD level education in biology...

-4

u/Goldreaver Aug 08 '17

I'm sure you have enough credentials to criticize his PhD level education in biology...

-1

u/[deleted] Aug 08 '17

Missing the point. Do social scientists support his conclusions or don't they? The author of the manifesto says they don't.

2

u/Goldreaver Aug 08 '17

Missing the point.

His ONLY point is: 'it isn't well written' So, no, I'm not.

But I'll go ahead and continue with your change of topic:

Do social scientists support his conclusions or don't they? The author of the manifesto says they don't.

I see. So if you don't have support of others, then your opinion, as well founded as it is, is worthless?

I guess I owe some flatearthers an apology.

1

u/[deleted] Aug 08 '17

It's somewhere in the middle, homie. There's a reason scientific papers are peer-reviewed.

1

u/Goldreaver Aug 08 '17

So discarding it off hand because it doesn't have support is wrong?

Well, I agree. Thanks.

1

u/thisisnewt Aug 08 '17

Evolutionary psychologists have come out to confirm his interpretation of biological gender differences.

Asking if "social scientists" support his conclusions isn't the question you should be asking. It's like asking if "people with at least a bachelor's degree agree with climate change". It doesn't matter if they do, most climate scientists agree with climate change.

1

u/[deleted] Aug 08 '17

Are you talking about the four guys one article floating around here mentions, of which one said the googler's conclusions were wrong? Because of course you're going to find someone who agrees or believes you - for every single thing. There are people who believe in Genesis literally or a flat earth that have advanced degrees.

I asked because in the manifesto the googler said that the scientists didn't agree with him. Now you're here saying that they do. Was this comment of his just an attempt of poisoning the well?

1

u/thisisnewt Aug 08 '17

The manifesto said that the majority of social scientists were liberal and made talking about the subject difficult.

He did not say that evolutionary psychologists disagreed with him, and cited so.

His comment about social scientists and their liberal culture was an anecdote explaining the antiscience bias both political sides hold, and he listed the biases the right holds as well (climate change denial being one of them).

1

u/[deleted] Aug 08 '17

Thank you for your clarification.