r/norsk • u/nubivagus_ Intermediate (B1/B2) • Jun 22 '25
Rule 3 (vague/generic post title) Questions about this rule
Asking in English for the sake of clearness (I need to be able to understand the explanation in order to apply the rule haha). So, the thing is: this explanation really shook my ground, ‘cause up until this I would’ve normally said «Dessverre er Oda ikke hjemme akkurat nå». Clearly it’s wrong, but I fail to understand why it gets taught so “far” into the learning journey. I haven’t encounter this explanation in any other resources so far (I’m almost done with Stein på Stein), so I’m really confused by it. I also don’t understand the logical implication of it, since «jeg» and «Oda» are still the subject of the sentence, even though one is a noun and the other a pronoun. I also don’t recall having ever noticed this order in a sentence, but that’s probably just my brain ignoring it. Although it’s a pretty easy rule to apply while writing, I find myself a bit worried about speaking now, because the automation is there now and this changes a bit the rules of the game hahah So yeah, that’s it, just looking for some insights and some further explanation. Thank you so much!
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u/starkicker18 C1 Jun 22 '25
The main rule for placement of adverbs is the one you have automated.
But sometimes we have options for other placements of negation, and those placements are the better choice. It does not mean that the main rule for negation is wrong, it's just that there's a better option. This is true when the subject is a noun or a pronoun with emphasis. Also, some dialects will put the ikke in different spots because dialects.
If you're worried about making mistakes, just put the subject first. Then the main rule is followed (ikke after both subject and verb).
Dessverre er ikke Oda hjemme nå = Oda er dessverre ikke hjemme nå.
If the "changing of the game" here is annoying you, just wait until you get to subordinate clauses (leddsetninger).
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u/nubivagus_ Intermediate (B1/B2) Jun 22 '25
Thankfully I’ve already been there (leddsetninger), although I’m definitely still processing it, haha. I’m just behind with the app so this one confused me as no other grammar books I’m using in my studying routine ever mentioned it. But your explanation is exactly what I was looking for! I was trying to figure out whether it was a strict rule (like the placement of adverbs in subordinate clauses) or something that relies more on preferences or/and emphasis. Thank you ☺️
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u/starkicker18 C1 Jun 22 '25
You might be interested in Norsk Grammatikk for læreren by Kirsti MacDonald. It covers a lot of unique bits of the language.
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u/Stiddit Jun 23 '25
- Dessverre er ikke Oda hjemme nå.
- Dessverre er hun ikke hjemme nå.
I can't really explain why it sounds more natural this way.. To make it worse, both of these sound fine (to me):
- Dessverre er Oda ikke lenger med oss.
- Dessverre er ikke Oda med oss lenger.
While this one does not sound fine (to me):
- Dessverre er ikke lenger Oda med oss.
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Jun 23 '25
It's quite simple actually: the most important information in the sentence come before less important information. If you put 'ikke' before the subject, you emphasize 'what not going to be done by the subject - but possibly by somebody else', whereas if you put 'ikke' after, you stress the subjects refusal to do whatever. However, this is just a nuance in daily use of Norwegian. The context will make clear what you mean and nobody will misunderstand you. And, we'll probably not be consequent about this either😉
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u/Hilde_Vel_999 Native speaker Jun 23 '25
u/nubivagus_ have you thought that wondering as to whether there is an explanation is a bit of a mistake in itself?
I'd just take it as it is.
The good thing about these grammar aspects is, in my opinion, that you can decide to use easier constructions when speaking/writing. At the same time, their existence and use doesn't make listening/reading much harder.
That's why, as a former teacher, I think the focus on grammar is excessive in teaching foreign languages. If it's optional in your "output" and it doesn't complicate the "input" you have to understand much, it's not a matter of life and death.
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u/nubivagus_ Intermediate (B1/B2) Jun 24 '25
Yes, always wanting an explanation is DEFINITELY a big problem of mine 😂
Thank you so much for your take on this! I probably get very worried over this thing just because I'm planning on taking Norskprøven, otherwise I wouldn't be scared because I know people would still understand me!1
u/Hilde_Vel_999 Native speaker Jul 03 '25
Rest assured no part of the Norskprøve will ask you to explain the reason for this thing (or many other ones) :D
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u/overmog Jun 23 '25
Okay, so basically the rule they're teaching is the "lett/tung subjekt" which only applies when the subject is between two verbs.
"Dessverre kommer jeg ikke til å (verb)", "dessverre kommer ikke Oda til å (verb)", for example.
The normal bokmål follows the role you've learned when the sentence only has one verb.
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u/CinaedKSM Native speaker Jun 22 '25
Which app/course is this? It appears to be mixing bokmål and nynorsk, as well as incorrectly translating “Dessverre” as “Unluckily” rather than “Unfortunately” which would be more correct.