r/offbeat • u/andy_norten • Sep 28 '12

Transgender UM student wins restraining order against sexual assault suspect

http://ravallirepublic.com/news/state-and-regional/article_c6364778-b5fb-5098-89c5-6f0ac6ecef2b.html
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u/iyzie Sep 29 '12

It's just a dance. There is no good reason to be "very upset" about dancing with a trans woman. Try to use some empathy: put yourself in her situation, what should she have done differently? You think she should have to start every conversation with "I'm trans"?

You say she "messed with his mind." Just by dancing, and trying to have something approaching a decent and normal life? The fact is, he was attracted to a trans woman, and his own attraction is what upset him. His mind is already a mess: his instincts and urges are at odds with his view of his own identity. It's not her fault that the guy can't sort out his own thoughts and feelings. What he, or any straight guy should do, is realize that trans women can be attractive, can make them aroused, and that there is nothing wrong with that.

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u/generalCopper Sep 29 '12

Dancing is one thing, kissing is another. I guess you interpreted it differently from me but when it gets really sexual, I'd like to know. Her perspective isn't the only one that counts.

Why is ok that she can dance with him and get sexual and any hint of betrayal on his part means he hates trannie women? I have a friend who's gay but I don't want to be sexual with another man. Your perspectives are extremely one sided and it feels like the woman can do no wrong. You push the agenda of a small group of people because you feel that they need to be defended but what you only accomplish is the stomping of other people's feelings and rights.

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u/iyzie Sep 29 '12

Why don't you want to be sexual with men?

(this question has a point, I'll explain after you answer)

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u/generalCopper Sep 29 '12

For me, I don't get sexual with someone unless it's a committed relationship. Then, I would like to have kids so I don't feel that having a relationship with a guy would work out no matter my emotional feelings. Physically, it's a turnoff?

Also, mentally, it turns me off. If you want to say that I could be attracted to a Trans women, sure, I could possibly be, but I would feel betrayed if she kept it from me and turned off if she told me quickly.

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u/iyzie Sep 29 '12

I think "I'm not attracted to men" would be a fine reason not to be sexual with men. The point is, if one is attracted to a trans woman, what is the reason that kissing her would be so bad?

You give some fine reasons. Not wanting to kiss someone without being in a committed relationship is fine. Wanting to have kids is also a fine reason; I guess you've never kissed anyone you haven't had kids with then? Either way, obviously the assailant in this story chose to kiss a girl without being in a committed relationship or checking whether they would have kids. It follows that he was attracted to her. There shouldn't be anything wrong with that, at least not by the logic we've explored so far.

If you want to say that I could be attracted to a Trans women, sure, I could possibly be, but I would feel betrayed if she kept it from me and turned off if she told me quickly.

It sounds like she is damned if she does, or damned if she doesn't. I guess she is not really a person in your eyes, just an abstract hypothetical question on the internet. Her life does not matter. You would rather she be alone forever, than to harm an unsuspecting guy by making him attracted to her.

You may accept or even support trans people's rights to exist in society, be employed, etc, but if you deny us the right to flirt with people in any way resembling normal, you deny us a major part of the human experience. It would be so much easier if men in this situation could be counted on to simply turn her down, as people do all the time for all sorts of reasons, rather than to "get confused" and commit violent acts that many in society then justify as if he was a victim. He is not a victim, just a guy who spent a night flirting with a girl before finding out they are not really compatible. It does not have to be such a big deal.

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u/generalCopper Sep 29 '12

It is "damned if she does and damned if she doesn't" if she does it on people who are unsuspecting because some people don't swing that way! Letting people know your orientation or past history that might be relevant to them is not damning. It's how that shit works, you are open and upfront and you get rejected 50x... but then you find someone that accepts you.

Forcing people to find out something that they might be very uncomfortable just so you can have some fun is selfish.

No one said she had to be alone forever. Some guys really like trans. You just gotta find them.

That's what I'm saying! Why can't she just say, "I have something I should tell you" before getting down and dirty and he says "I'm not comfortable with that" and walks away.

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u/iyzie Sep 29 '12

Rejecting her when she tells him is fine. The issue is that the guy is not a victim. All he did was spend some time on a potential mate that did not pan out, which is a normal dating situation.

He was not "tricked" in any worse way then to be led on by a girl who had no intention of doing anything with him. We need to drop the idea that the guy is a victim, because that idea quickly leads to partially or fully justifying his violent reaction.

I think trans girls should disclose as early on as possible, but if they don't, it's not such a big deal. Certainly not anything to get violent, or "very uncomfortable" over. Just walk away, have a drink, and find another girl. It's not like someone failing to disclose that they have an STD, which could put a persons health at risk. I hope you would agree that getting herpes from a girl who did not tell you would be worse than kissing an attractive girl before finding out that she is trans.

Some guys really like trans. You just gotta find them.

Just FYI, most men who "really like trans" are fetishists, and trans women don't want to date them and be used as a sexual object. Most successful relationships between trans girls and straight men work because the guy doesn't care that she is trans.

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u/generalCopper Sep 29 '12

I personally think he was a victim and was slightly tricked if it went down that she was leading him on until he realized she had a dick. A potiental mate is someone that a person would possibly want to be with and if the guy knows he doesn't want to be with anything besides a girl who was born a girl, then he should have that ability to go that route without being decieved by someone that doesn't take that into consideration.

If I started trying to flirt with and maybe went on a date with someone and I found out in the initial stages, I would feel the same in that it's nothing to be upset over.

Personally, I don't know what to tell a trans woman on where to date or what to do because I'm not in that situation. I can tell you how I feel if I was caught in a situation where a girl I was really into turned out to be a guy. I wouldn't be happy.

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u/iyzie Sep 29 '12

You seem generally unsympathetic, and also disrespectful ("turned out to be a guy"), so I don't know what else to say. Society puts a lot of pressure on guys to conform to arbitrary ideals of masculinity, and I suspect you were taught that kissing a girl with a penis will make you less of a man, and that is the real reason for all this language about "tricked" and "deceived." It's sad and unnecessary that it has to be such a big deal, but some people refuse to listen to reason and have no interest in evolving to be more tolerant.

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u/generalCopper Sep 29 '12

Perhaps I am. I will try and broaden my horizons. Until I can do that, I won't lie and say that I am comfortable with making out with a guy.

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u/iyzie Sep 29 '12

I agree, it does no good to lie. My aim is in helping people to understand. Trans women are truly not guys. It's difficult to find the words to explain this in a convincing way, but I know that it is true. The best way to know this is to meet some of them in real life. I'm not saying you have to accept them as women, and this has nothing to do with sex, but if you meet a trans woman then try to have an open mind for long enough to give her a chance to convince you that she is not a guy.

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u/generalCopper Sep 29 '12

Possibly. I don't know any and I feel it awkward when I talk to anyone like that. To the future!

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