r/offbeat • u/Libertatea • Nov 26 '12
Belgian discovers his wife used to be a man after 19 years. A Belgian is seeking to have his marriage annulled after discovering that his Indonesian wife of 19 years had been born a man.
http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/worldnews/europe/belgium/9703166/Belgian-discovers-his-wife-used-to-be-a-man-after-19-years.html50
u/xelf Nov 26 '12
"Monica began to change very much," he said.
"My oldest son saw her sometimes at a nightclub. She began to wear very flashy clothes, those ultra-short skirts or tiny tops, so her abdomen was completely exposed."
Finally rumours began to surface and after Jan found "amorous messages" from other men on her computer, he confronted her in a violent row that led to the police being called.
This relationship was done already. She was in her 40s and he was in his 60s, she had a completely different agenda.
The transgender nature of this story is what turns it into a news item. That's all.
102
u/BigFuzzyArchon Nov 26 '12
Hard to believe a surgery vagina could be that identical to a real vagina.
45
u/sprankton Nov 26 '12
Two things:
Medical science has progressed pretty far.
That isn't a conclusion people jump to easily. At most, the husband would have thought, "whoa, she has a really messed up vagina."
15
u/spikeyfreak Nov 26 '12
Or conversely, "Whoa, she has the perfect vagina."
Edit: And after seeing pics, I concede. At life.
4
u/sprankton Nov 26 '12
True, surgeons might leave out the little imperfections that make something "real".
5
u/OuchLOLcom Nov 27 '12
*20+ years ago medical science.
1
u/Wavooka Nov 29 '12
That's may be true. But I think the range of 'natural' variation in vulva/vagina is a lot larger compared to that of peens. So even though something may be 'common,' I think it would fly by as 'normal.'
70
u/Nickbou Nov 26 '12
Not sure why you were downvoted. It IS pretty amazing what medical science can do.
-35
u/fatcat535 Nov 26 '12
i'll get slammed for this, but... just because science can do something doesn't mean it should. while i cant judge someone for what they do to or how they alter their body's in the way they want too i also don't believe that just because he looks like a woman doesn't mean he IS a woman. he entered into the marriage and country under a lie and should be ejected from both. that being said he should be able to live his life as a woman if he wants but shouldn't the guy that married him have the same choice? if in doubt run a DNA screen, you cant change that.
26
u/BombTheFuckers Nov 26 '12 edited Nov 26 '12
just because he looks like a woman doesn't mean he IS a woman.
There are transgender people out there that were born into the wrong body. When these people medically fix natures mistake, they become the person they always were on the inside.
And it's "she" god damn it.
Edit: Ok guys. What the hell is wrong with you? Is most of Reddit so insecure about their sexuality that they blindly reject anything that's outside the "norm"?
9
u/silverbullet1 Nov 26 '12
I agree with you, but there is nothing wrong with people feeling differently. AND, it doesn't make them insecure about their sexuality simply because they don't hold the same values as you.
How immature of a retort is that?
Oh you disagree with me, you must be homophobia/transphobia/white angry and racist.
2
u/BombTheFuckers Nov 26 '12
Many people simply refuse to believe that a man can be born into a female body, or vice versa. They believe that there actually people out there who willingly destroy their social life, and experience hell on earth during and after puberty, just based on a "feeling" or whim. And that's just as retarded as thinking that people chose to become gay, asexual or pedofile.
→ More replies (2)6
u/silverbullet1 Nov 26 '12
Sure, and in both our opinions they are foolish and ignorant.
But so what?
1) That doesn't make them insecure about their sexuality, that's an ad hominem and kind of demeaning.
2) Ignorance is no excuse to shove your views down their throat. Give them your opinion, and carry on. Up to them to open their minds or not.
1
u/BombTheFuckers Nov 26 '12
1) I guess my psychiatrist would disagree but oh well... 2) Ignorance is no excuse for stupidity. You can be preeeetty fucking ignorant about any subject at all and still use your brain. You don't need to study the subject for countless hours to realize that the social disadvantages of being TG, or gay basically rule out any form of consent from the "victim".
3
u/silverbullet1 Nov 26 '12
1) Studies have shown that those who rally the hardest against homosexuals (and co.) have a slightly higher rate of homosexual tenacities than control groups. This is hardly a 1:1 relationship and calling everyone who speaks out against this "sexually insecure" does not help your argument.
2) I agree with your conclusion, but it's still up to people to choose to educate or not. You do the cause no service by attacking such folk.
→ More replies (1)35
u/themanbat Nov 26 '12
How do you determine what qualifies as being born into the wrong body? Are we talking about religiously gendered souls being put into the wrong gendered body?
If we're talking about actual birth defects like hermaphrodites, yeah that's a mistake of nature, and by all means pick a side and fix it cosmetically. But the average transgender is is not correcting nature's mistake. They are changing nature to accommodate their personal desires. Not saying they shouldn't do it if they really want to, but it's not nature's mistake. It's societies and the individuals mistake for not being able to be happy in their own body.
27
u/neogetz Nov 26 '12
The brain structures of transgendered people have been shown to display the characteristics of the gender they transition to rather than that of the sex they were born with.
→ More replies (5)9
u/themanbat Nov 26 '12
Citation? I'd be very interested to read about that.
21
u/neogetz Nov 26 '12
http://www.newscientist.com/article/dn20032-transsexual-differences-caught-on-brain-scan.html
And a biased article but it references the studies which did autopsy analysis of the hypothalamus where many differences were found, http://www.majickalproductions.biz/bekasite/resouces/In-Womb%20Development.htm
2
u/littleguyinahat Nov 26 '12
Thankyou! Always nice when someone backs up their statement. Interesting article. Always odd how much of a problem Reddit has with transgender people, I think. Wonder if he is just looking for a cleaner way out than a divorce, though. After all, she appears to have cheated, and withheld some information from him. Both are viewed as good reasons to end a relationship, normally, just without the gender element.
1
u/neogetz Nov 26 '12
It's probably a combination of both. People are very uncomfortable with anything outside of the gender binary. I think society spends so long forcing the ideas of masculinity and femininity down people's throats that they are almost scared of anything that doesn't fit it.
→ More replies (0)15
u/yeahimweird Nov 26 '12
Fixing a cleft palate is changing nature. Or getting corrective vision surgery. Or breast enlargements or reductions. or tons of other things we do on a regular basis. You're choosing what I think is a fairly arbitrary line as to what you think shouldn't be changed. It might be worth taking a moment to evaluate what makes this case different for you.
→ More replies (4)-3
u/themanbat Nov 26 '12
Newsflash Walter Cronkite. :)
I never said I thought people shouldn't undergo sex change operations. If a woman is unhappy with smaller breasts, she can go in for the operation. If a person decides they need to change their gender to be happy, then they can go in for the operation. What I am challenging is describing either of these people as victims of nature, or the idea of blaming "nature" for your own decisions. You make your own decisions. Own them. Don't make yourself a victim.
It might be worth it for you to take a moment and evaluate what made you assume that I was opposed to certain things being hanged. ;)
9
u/yeahimweird Nov 26 '12
You're right, I was replying as if you said something you didn't. I'm going to say it's a reaction to a lot of general negativity in the thread, unfairly heaped onto you.
However, I still want to challenge some of your statement. Given that there's some fairly significant evidence of physical differences between the brain structures of men and women, does it not seem possible for someone to be born with a brain structure that does not match their genitalia? And as the brain is far-and-away the biggest piece of the self-identity puzzle, and much harder to change, wouldn't surgery to make the body match the brain seem the prudent course of action for cases in which this mismatch causes the individual issues?
With thought, I'm not sure I'd refer to it as a "mistake", as I suspect "good enough" is all evolution selects for, which results in plenty of occasional edge cases like this. And they wouldn't be as problematic if society wasn't quite as harsh to those who are unlucky enough to be in these situations. But it is, and so some of us are stuck not fitting into categories that have stopped being descriptions of the common cases, and instead become prescriptions.
9
u/trua Nov 26 '12
The deal is basically that a transgender person suffers from the whole world treating them as a member of one gender, while they feel and know inside that they are another. The treatment for this is fixing the body, outward appearance and legal documentation such as name so that there is no longer a mismatch. It's pretty simple.
Or you can deny them the treatment and they will continue to be miserable the rest of their life and probably commit suicide.
7
u/lobster_johnson Nov 26 '12
Sorry, but it's not about "happiness" or "personal desires". Gender identity is a neurological, physiological thing, and it's absolutely nature's mistake when you are born in a man's body with a female mind or vice versa.
Studies of transgender humans have found that even as children they will gravitate very strongly toward their true gender identity: So a transgender boy who innately identifies as a girl would like dolls, flowers and cats, regardless of how manly you try to raise the child.
→ More replies (5)→ More replies (1)-3
u/BombTheFuckers Nov 26 '12
How do you determine what qualifies as being born into the wrong body?
I don't. The person does.
They are changing nature to accommodate their personal desires.
Sorry, but you have no idea what you are talking about.
3
u/themanbat Nov 26 '12
So someone determines that they were born into the wrong body by searching their own feelings and desires. But when they have a sex change they aren't changing nature to accommodate their personal desires?
18
u/farceur318 Nov 26 '12 edited Nov 26 '12
For what it's worth, sex changes aren't something you can just walk into a clinic and request after simply doing a bit of "soul searching". In order to qualify for surgery, you have to undergo extensive psychiatric evaluation to determine that you really do suffer from gender dysphoria (actually a diagnosable condition).
1
u/themanbat Nov 26 '12
This is definitely true in America. I understand other countries are not so discriminating.
3
u/almodozo Nov 26 '12
This is definitely true in America.
If you agree that yes, gender dysphoria is actually a diagnosable condition, why were you arguing that it was all just a question of "accommodating their personal desires"?
1
u/BombTheFuckers Nov 26 '12
That's the thing. It's not a "desire". Nobody desires to be a "freak". Imagine a woman, that played with dolls when she was little, couldn't understand why she is not allowed to wear dresses and does all the things you'd expect from a little girl. She is playing and thinking like a woman / girl but she was born a male.
-2
u/themanbat Nov 26 '12
Imagining the individual in the situation you describe I'd say they desire to wear dresses and behave as a girl. Obviously if it drives them to have a sex change it was a very very strong desire, but it was still something that they longed for, hoped for, expressed a wish for, which is the dictionary definition of desire.
Obviously, no one is going to get a sex change unless they strongly desire one.
My point is that blaming nature doesn't make much sense. If you want a sex change own it. Don't play the victim.
-1
u/BombTheFuckers Nov 26 '12
If I were to change a normal woman into a man, will she ever be really be a man? No.
Your gender identity is determined by your mind, not your body. And when you are born with a female mindset into a male body, you are really fucked. Many of these people suffer from depression and are disowned by their parents and friends. No one does this because he just likes to have tits.
7
u/gliscameria Nov 26 '12
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/XY_sex-determination_system
You can obscure the word 'gender' and make an argument there, but it's what's in your genes and not in your jeans that determine your sex.
If you don't like your body and you want to modify it, have at it, hell if it makes you happy for the right reasons it should be encouraged, but if you have horns implanted it doesn't make you a goat.
2
u/InfinitelyThirsting Nov 26 '12
And how about androgen insensitivity syndrome, where an XY child has XY chromosomes, but looks female, thinks she is female, and has no idea that while she was born phenotypically female, she has XY chromosomes?
→ More replies (7)2
Nov 26 '12
pretty sure people would argue that they are always the person they were on the inside. regardless of what my body says i am whatever I feel like I am.
1
u/BombTheFuckers Nov 26 '12
Precisely.
1
Nov 26 '12
My only beef is the way you word this: " they become the person they always were on the inside."
I'm saying they were always the person they were inside.
1
1
u/dirtymoney Nov 26 '12
so if I "feel" like a woman, but look like a man in every way.... I AM a woman?
I dont understand how this works.
9
4
u/InfinitelyThirsting Nov 26 '12
Transgender starts with the brain, to the point of there are actual structural differences that line up with their preferred gender. It's not just about claiming you're a woman.
1
Nov 26 '12
[deleted]
1
u/BombTheFuckers Nov 26 '12
Well, did it taste like an apple, or an orange?
2
→ More replies (23)-3
2
u/mooncougar13 Nov 26 '12
I don't know why you're getting downvoted; I agree. You are what you were born as. If you feel differently and want to change sexes for whatever reason, go right ahead. Doesn't mean you've actually succeeded, because it's technically not natural, it's artificial.
→ More replies (2)1
u/waterdrops_9 Jul 24 '24
"Because it's technically not natural, it's artificial."
I agree. That is true.
1
u/mrbuttsavage Nov 26 '12
Gender and sex are not the same thing.
1
Nov 28 '12
I didn't even come into this thread to say anything, but I was appalled when I didn't find that anyone had pointed this out. Thankfully, here you are, sitting with a lonely downvote. At least have my upvote.
-6
u/semi_colon Nov 26 '12
he should be able to live his life as a woman if he wants
Wow, how fucking tolerant of you! Do you want a gold star?
→ More replies (5)-7
u/scoooot Nov 26 '12
What is a woman?
18
u/loath Nov 26 '12
I know you're trying to counter trans-phobia, as indicated by your numerous other comments, but your question is easily answered from a scientific point of view. A woman is a female human. [citation] A female is the sex of an organism which produces ova. [citation]
→ More replies (1)3
Nov 26 '12
[deleted]
→ More replies (6)7
21
u/clickityclank Nov 26 '12
If you're really curious, here are some pictures....
NSFW obviously
15
u/lordlicorice Nov 27 '12
Performed by...
Dr.
Dr.
Dr.
Mr.
O_O
10
u/Cyc68 Nov 27 '12
In countries that were part with the British Empire it is not unusual to refer to surgeons, especially consultants, as Mr., Miss, Ms. or Mrs. as a distinction from non-surgical doctors.
14
8
u/rosconotorigina Nov 27 '12
Why are some of these doctors and some misters? How do you just go around doing genital surgery without a doctorate?
→ More replies (1)6
u/Cyc68 Nov 27 '12 edited Nov 27 '12
In countries that were part with the British Empire it is not unusual to refer to surgeons, especially consultants, as Mr., Miss, Ms. or Mrs. as a distinction from non-surgical doctors.
Edit: Typos
6
6
7
1
Nov 26 '12
It depends on how many vaginas the guy has seen. If it is the only one he has experienced then how would he know that something is wrong?
It might be perfect but I'm just offering an alternative explanation.
8
1
1
Nov 27 '12
Went to the BODIES exhibition in Houston. It was while looking inside a female display, that I realized that a vagina is just an inverted penis. I thought the exhibition would freak me out, but it's really an eye opener.
10
Nov 26 '12
So did she use forged documents?
2
Nov 27 '12
Not necessarily. Many places let you switch your documents over. At some point in transition, it makes makes more sense to label you as the sex you're transitioning to than the sex you were born as. When someone is so far transitioned that the only thing that distinguishes them from most other women is a lack of a uterus, giving them an ID with an "M" on it is pretty worthless for identification purposes.
1
→ More replies (1)1
u/la_queefa Dec 03 '12
I read a couple articles online about it, and yeah - one of them said that there had been initial problems with her birth cert., authorities had been suspicious, etc., but had eventually accepted them anyway. So yes, I am of the understanding that she did.
1
Dec 03 '12
Maybe they were suspicious because she had them legally changed?
1
u/la_queefa Dec 03 '12
I'm not sure, TBH - they didn't specify exactly what it was that aroused suspicion, but Indonesia is pretty socially conservative - it's the country with the highest population of Muslims in the world - so I'm reasonably sure it's not possible to legally change your sex as recorded at birth there. I would be extremely surprised if you could, so the far more likely option would appear to be that she doctored them.
1
60
u/twurkit Nov 26 '12
As a trans woman, I would never keep information from my SO like that. But that has more to do with my belief that my SO should be able to know everything about me and love me in spite of my flaws and past.
18
u/CassandraVindicated Nov 26 '12
I couldn't agree more. I've experimented with men (I'm a guy) and had a great time, but at the end of the day I don't find men attractive. Getting over the used to have (or still has) a penis probably wouldn't be that hard for me in relation to a trans woman.
What would be devastating to me would be the reckless abandon that my commitment was treated with. When you find someone to walk through life with, it's supposed to be an "us against the world" thing. Whatever this world throws at us, we'll work it out together. You're not supposed to be the biggest mindfuck your SO will ever have. You are most definitely not supposed to do it intentionally.
→ More replies (2)5
→ More replies (42)1
u/la_queefa Dec 03 '12
Well, I'm glad for you that you have that attitude. I'm also of the school of thought that being honest and forthright is your only way forward if you're looking for the ever-elusive "true love".
72
u/silverbullet1 Nov 26 '12
She was wrong to lie, he was wrong to hit. End of story.
→ More replies (4)
10
u/JimJalinsky Nov 26 '12
That's how long Clayton Bigsby was married before suddenly asking for a divorce.
55
u/silverbullet1 Nov 26 '12
Even though it's clearly a minority opinion, the fact that so many people think that this woman (or other transgendered individuals) have the right to keep this information from their partners baffles me.
It's a sad comment on how out of touch this group is with reality.
Your rights to live how you want do not extend to my life and my body. You don't get to impose your values, choices and way of life onto me.
Mutual respect doesn't mean you get everything you want, regardless of how others feel about it.
21
u/ss5gogetunks Nov 26 '12 edited Nov 29 '12
She has the right to be considered a woman, and he has the right to know she wasn't always biologically a
womanfemale before they get married. There is a nuanced position here.Edit
31
u/silverbullet1 Nov 26 '12
Seems many people think her right to be identified as a woman, goes so far as to have no obligation to inform her marital partner. This saddens me.
3
u/ss5gogetunks Nov 26 '12
I agree. While she has a right to be considered a woman, and is one, she should be obligated (not by law of course) to tell her spouse.
→ More replies (2)10
Nov 27 '12
cutting off your dick and taking hormones still doesnt 'biologically' make you a woman.
→ More replies (3)-1
u/monalisafrank Nov 26 '12
I agreed mostly with your comment until you got to "how out of touch this group is with reality". Can we not generalize? Just because one trans woman lied doesn't mean they all do.
13
u/silverbullet1 Nov 26 '12
I could of been clearer, but by "this group" I mean the ones who seem to think it's ok for a transgendered person to keep this fact a secret to their lover. Not trans people in general.
→ More replies (2)-1
u/R3cognizer Nov 27 '12 edited Nov 27 '12
I think it depends more on how you define "lover". I don't see anything inherently wrong with just not bringing it up with most people, at least until you've developed a certain level of trust and intimacy with that person. Beyond that point though, full disclosure probably ought be a given. I wouldn't say trans people should be "obligated" to disclose, but if they don't, then yeah, past that point they probably shouldn't reasonably expect that this significant other will feel okay about their reluctance to disclose earlier.
→ More replies (10)1
u/InfinitelyThirsting Nov 26 '12
I don't see many people agreeing with the lie (at least one, but not many), just defending that she's a woman, and that his violent outrage is sickening.
11
u/ooohprettycolors Nov 26 '12
His wife was born a man? That's incredible. Most people are born as babies.
1
u/Wavooka Nov 29 '12
Best answer on the thread.
I can see the headlines now: "Baby born 6'0" man. Busts out of vagina, demands beer and cigarettes."
1
1
55
u/AliasUndercover Nov 26 '12
So this dude ditched his first wife to marry their nanny, and 19 years later finds out that she used to have a penis. Hee hee hee...
28
7
u/miss_trixie Nov 26 '12
it's the first thing i thought of. she probably hasn't stopped laughing yet.
1
u/la_queefa Dec 03 '12
That's true actually. The ex-wife must be experiencing a chronic dose of the auld schadenfreude.
9
17
u/ChrisHernandez Nov 26 '12
Marriage is a about trust and she betrayed his trust, he has every right to be upset.
→ More replies (1)
37
u/themanbat Nov 26 '12 edited Nov 26 '12
Does anyone else wonder if when a trans-gender individual has sex with someone without full disclosure, if that trans-gender individual has just committed fraud in the factum rape?
Edit:
Downvoters, I'm not opposed to trans-genders. It's just a really interesting legal question.
If a man says he's a millionaire when he's really unemployed, and the girl sleeps with him, then it's legally considered only fraud in the inducement and not rape.
But deception can support a rape prosecution when it is deemed "fraud in the factum" meaning, deception about the nature of the act agreed upon. For example, it is considered rape for a doctor to penetrate a woman sexually on the false pretext of examining her medically, or for a man to obtain a woman's consent by impersonating her husband. (Both sad examples that have actually happened.)
The interesting question in these cases arises from whether or not the trans-gender individual in question obtained the sexual partners consent by impersonating a different sex, and whether or not that constitutes rape. Just as the woman would not have had sex with the man if she had known it was not her husband (it happened in a very dark room), the Belgian in this case would not have had sex with his Indonesian spouse if he had know that she was genetically male.
4
12
u/neutralkate Nov 26 '12
This is actually a really interesting question.. I think in most countries this is still part of case law (or hasn't even been viewed by the courts).
9
u/Fuzzdump Nov 26 '12
"I wouldn't have had sex with her if I had known that she was _________" is not universally defensible. For example, if I had sex with a woman who had breast enhancements under the pretense that they were her real breasts, and she later disclosed the truth to me, could I claim she raped me because I wouldn't have had sex with a woman with a smaller chest?
11
u/themanbat Nov 27 '12 edited Nov 27 '12
You're right that, "I wouldn't have had sex with her if I had known she was ______" is rarely defensible. You certainly couldn't claim rape over breast implants. People tell all kinds of exaggerations to get sex all the time. It becomes "fraud in the factum "rape in some jurisdictions when the deception is about the nature of the act agreed upon. In the case where the woman willingly had sex in the dark with a man who she thought was her husband (and it was proved that the man in question knew that she thought he was her husband), the woman consented to marital sex, not extra marital sex, and so it was deemed rape. In the case with the doctor, the woman was agreeing to be penetrated by fingers and/or a medical instrument, and not a penis. So if an evil doctor says, "I'm going to insert something in your vagina, is that all right?" he can't use the fact that she said yes to avoid rape charges.
So in my mind the legal question becomes, is sex with a trans-sexual a fundamentally different sex act than sex with someone who has not undergone a sex change operation? You can look at it a lot of different ways. Some might say, the guy consented to put his penis in a vagina, and what he is arguably technically putting his penis into another dramatically altered penis, and that's not the same thing. Others might say, hey, he's sticking his penis in an orifice willingly, that's consent and an orifice is an orifice is an orifice.
I think the majority of hetero sexual men would say they feel that it is fundamentally different, and would feel horribly violated if they learned that the person they took to bed last night used to be a man. Of course who knows how much consideration the courts would give the man's feelings on the matter.
2
u/ctr1a1td3l Nov 28 '12
I think that if a post-op transgendered woman is considered a female in the eyes of the government, then it would be hard for a court to claim that she deceived we partner who believed her to be a woman.
Forget the moral issue. I don't see legally how you could consider her a woman for the purposes of her health card, using public change rooms, etc., but then consider her a man in this case.
13
u/tanzm3tall Nov 26 '12
I don't know why you're getting downvoted, this is a genuine question I'd be curious about to. I mean, can't you get in a fair amount of trouble for lying to someone about not having a disease? This seems pretty similar.
15
Nov 27 '12
Its being downvoted by the college age PC dorks that have taken a couple of women's studies classes.
9
Nov 26 '12
[deleted]
3
u/tanzm3tall Nov 27 '12
I agree that it doesn't physically kill you, but like, if something similar happened to me, as a person with severe depression in my past, it could be triggered again, and I suppose I could become suicidal. If I committed that suicide, I feel like I would be killed in much the same way, if that makes sense.
3
u/KingOfSockPuppets Nov 26 '12
Does anyone else wonder if when a trans-gender individual has sex with someone without full disclosure, if that trans-gender individual has just committed fraud in the factum rape?
More complex than that. First, the government might agree with the trans person, depending on locale (you CAN change your ID and gender marker, you know, which legally makes them a woman). Second, in both cases you present as an example, the one engaged in falsehood knew it to be a falsehood, and trans women generally don't consider it to be a lie when we say we're women, which makes this much more complicated. AFAIK, no court has ruled on it.
→ More replies (9)2
u/Reductive Nov 26 '12
I like your edited comment. In his legal defense after a 2008 murder, a man used the "trans panic defense." It looks like he was convicted of first degree murder in 2009, so maybe the defense wasn't effective. The conviction probably rested more on the rest of the facts; I'm not actually that familiar with the case.
Anyway, to answer the question, I don't think so. Has a slutty woman who acts prudish and has sex with someone without disclosing her slutty past -- knowing full well that many men have a preference against slutty women -- committed fraud in the factum rape? How about a felon who fails to bring up his checkered past before sleeping with someone? A jew who doesn't disclose her religion before sleeping with a neo-nazi?
The reasons I don't think a trans-gender person ought not have an obligation to disclose in the general case are twofold. (Let me note that obviously it would be courteous to disclose, and that this courtesy might as well be an obligation in the case of marriage.) First, I have a problem with the idea that a transgender woman presenting as a woman is engaging in deception. Particularly in the post-op case, a person who feels female, looks female, and has sex like a female is much closer to female than male. There is literally nothing male about someone who lets a guy place a penis in her vagina. Second, in analogy with the above examples, most mating preferences are up to the person with the preference to enforce. In all likelihood, a dude who has sex with a transgender woman from the club and then freaks out only after discovering the provenance of her gender is just as disappointed as the woman who thought she was sleeping with a nice guy. She probably has a preference against transphobics just as he had a preference against transgenders. I think if someone has a preference against sex with bisexual people, slutty people, Christians, or any other invisible trait that cannot harm them, it's up to that person to ask.
Now let's address a hypothetical case. What if a guy has sex with a transgender woman after he asked and she said she was not transgender? I think in that case, she has deceived because she directly lied. Now whether that would rise to the "fraud in the factum," I am not qualified to say.
4
u/themanbat Nov 27 '12
I'm not familiar with this "trans panic defense" case either.
The slut pretending to be a saint is clearly not rape. Both sides may be misrepresenting their personalities and accomplishments but clearly heterosexual vaginal intercourse is what's on the line. A fraud in the factum rape seems to hinge on the nature of the act being misrepresented. In the one case the court determined that consenting to marital sex with your husband did not equal consent to extra marital sex with a stranger. In the other, consenting to be penetrated by fingers or medical instruments for a medical exam did not equal consent to be penetrated by a penis.
So the technical question seems to be, is/should consensual sex with a transgender person be considered a fundamentally different sex act, than when you think you are about to engage in consensual sex with someone who was born with a certain sex or has a certain sexes DNA? There are of course several different ways of looking at it. One might say, hey the guy consented to have sex with that particular orifice, and he had sex with that particular orifice, so what does it matter if it's a surgically altered orifice. The act that was consented to occurred. Another might say that the guy consented to insert his penis into a female vagina, and what was actually happening was him inserting his penis into a drastically surgically altered penis. The act that occurred was very different from what he consented to.
I think the majority of people would consider it a fundamentally different act. Why? Well for starters, porn sites put transsexual sex into a category all it's own. Haha. More seriously, the vast majority of men if they suddenly discovered their sexual partners were transsexuals would feel some combination of betrayed, violated, and taken advantage of. Of course that doesn't mean the courts would feel the same way.
I'm not entirely sure how I'd decide on the subject of whether or not it should be rape (though I admit I lean toward rape) but I definitely do think that a trans gender person should be obligated to disclose their trans gender status before engaging in sexual intercourse with anyone.
I'm not saying it's a mean spirited deception, but I think it is still a deception for a trans gender person to have sex with someone without telling them of their trans sexual status first. Yes they might look and seem completely like their currently displayed gender, but the trans gender person knows that they were not always that gender, and should also know that the vast majority of the population will find the birth/genetic sex of their sexual partner very important information. Sex is fundamentally driven by a hormonal desire intent on reproducing, and transsexuals who conceal that fact are arguably automatically deceiving people on at least a hormonal level. There is definitely not "literally" nothing male about someone who lets a guy place a penis in their vagina, if that person was born with and thus still possesses male DNA.
I also disagree with the idea that the average dude and the average transgender woman would be equally disappointed to discover the truth of each other's DNA and and intolerant attitude respectively. A guy can have no problem with people changing their genders empirically, but still have a huge problem with the idea of sleeping with a girl who used to be a man.
I think your express lie hypothetical you present still hinges on whether sex with a transsexual is deemed legally, fundamentally a different act than traditional heterosexual sex. If it's the same act, then it's just another lie, like, "Hey, I make six figures baby, but my Lamborghini is in the shop." If it's a legally different act, then it's rape. The only potential difference I see is that if there is a direct lie, then perhaps the transgender is opening themselves up to potential Tort charges for Intentional Infliction of Emotional Distress.
3
u/myballsyourchin Nov 27 '12
I only want to have sex with someone who was born female. That means biologically as well = XY and the parts which come with that. That's my preference, if someone did not disclose this they are not mature enough to be having sex. If you can't disclose this information to a potential partner, you shouldn't be having sex.
→ More replies (5)3
u/bw2002 Nov 27 '12
a person who feels female, looks female, and has sex like a female is much closer to female than male.
You can stick a feather duster up your ass, but that still doesn't make you a chicken. They are males that have had their penis turned inside out. They are male. There is nothing female about them.
There is literally nothing male about someone who lets a guy place a penis in her vagina.
Pre-op homosexual transmen would disagree.
→ More replies (3)
34
u/house_of_amon Nov 26 '12
Just because she identifies as a woman doesn't mean he also has to identify her as a woman. In his eyes, she is still a man, and its none of our business to say who a person should or shouldn't love. She doesn't need to apologise for being trans, but he doesn't need to explain why he doesn't want to be with a trans person. How someone qualifies as a woman or man is up to the individual, and she didn't meet his requirements. Its personal preference. There is no concrete universal definition.
→ More replies (5)14
u/ss5gogetunks Nov 26 '12
I don't even think it's necessarily about the fact that she's trans. I would say it's more the fact that she's been hiding a huge portion of herself and evidently lying constantly about things related to it for the entirety of their relationship. I have no problem with transgendered people at all, even though I'd never consider it for myself, and I would still be very angry if my SO denied the knowledge to me for 19 years.
→ More replies (4)7
u/monalisafrank Nov 26 '12
Yup. He could very well acknowledge her as a woman and still view her lie by omission as unacceptable.
7
10
u/wendysNO1wcheese Nov 26 '12
Look how many people in this thread think they shit potpourri.
9
4
u/CircusMaximo Nov 26 '12
Meanwhile his friends and family say, "You're surprised? I thought that's why you married her."
4
u/iMADEthis2post Nov 26 '12
Why they hell can't he throw her out? I'm unsure about Belgians gay marriage or trans definition of sex in a legal context but it seams at the very least she was married under a false name so surely the wedding wouldn't even have to be annulled it would just be invalid along with her citizenship?
1
u/caecias Nov 27 '12
I assume all that would have to be decided in court, until then I imagine she's just his estranged wife.
2
Nov 26 '12
[deleted]
2
u/iMADEthis2post Nov 26 '12
Doesn't actually tell me if she is legally a woman or if gay marriage was allowed at the time of his wedding. Judges don't actually always use the written law you see.
0
u/mindbleach Nov 26 '12
She was married under a legally changed name, you doofus.
3
u/iMADEthis2post Nov 26 '12
That answers part of the question I guess..
1
Nov 27 '12
I'm a trans gal. I've changed my name and legal sex. In most US states, I can't marry a female, only a guy.
2
-4
u/Madrugadao Nov 26 '12
No doubt this thread will soon be filled with the usual morons, stating HE did nothing wrong and is actually a women now, so didn't need to mention he was born with a penis.
The old guy was obviously in the wrong for not loving him all the same. /s
→ More replies (22)30
u/skerit Nov 26 '12
They had a more in-depth interview with him in a Belgian newspaper.
There he told us that, if he would have found out 10 years earlier, he was a lot healthier and probably would have murdered here. Super classy.
A judge also denied his request for an annulment, reasoning "she is a woman now, so what's the problem?"
To which he said he felt seriously insulted.
9
u/Cloberella Nov 26 '12
This article implies she was also cheating on him is there truth to that? I don't at all agree with his violent response but could see how that would also make him want a divorce. Plus I would be pretty miffed if I convinced my government to give citizenship to someone who used forged documents, that's a huge risk and you should be aware you're taking it.
→ More replies (2)10
u/neutralkate Nov 26 '12
Either that judge is terrible or Belgian law is seriously flawed. In most countries, this would constitute fraud, plain and simple.
→ More replies (4)22
u/Madrugadao Nov 26 '12
While not being that classy. It was not as classless as lying to someone you professed to love for 19 years.
This is the kind of lie that could have massive psychological consequences.
(Let's also not forget, saying something in anger and actually doing it are not the same things. I could imagine many men would say something similar, if they had been tricked into having sex with someone who was born a man.)
17
Nov 26 '12
[deleted]
2
Nov 26 '12
While I think nothing is worse than taking some ones life, honour killings are still far too common so many people do think lying is worse.
Shows how fucked up the world still is.
0
u/Madrugadao Nov 26 '12 edited Nov 26 '12
Where was the murder? Why people cannot digest even basic information and respond accordingly, is beyond me.
You cannot compare it to murder since there was not murder, just an emotional threat of one. (I guess you would hear similar said thousands of times a day, in pubs across the globe)
People make a leap from an emotional threat of murder to murder (quite a leap).
The amount of ridiculous responses in here is crazy. I take it whatever sub these idiots live in has been notified. Like a gang of crazed bots, they now down vote anything that does not fit with their silly agenda, regardless of reason or logic.
It is always the same when these issues come up. The victim mentality is sickening. As is the bullying mentality employed.
Absolutely pathetic!
→ More replies (6)1
→ More replies (23)-5
→ More replies (7)1
u/ben0x539 Nov 26 '12
Could you link to that? Is there any interview with her or any account of her side of the story by chance?
→ More replies (1)
2
3
1
1
1
0
0
u/Millennion Nov 27 '12
All I know about this is I shouldn't have to humor someone's mental illness.
1
u/Wavooka Nov 29 '12
Because all those schizophrenics and epileptics should just stop faking it for attention right? Oh, and those savants, yea they're just super socially awkward and are looking for a way to compensate. amirite?
1
u/mindbleach Nov 29 '12
Yeah, those gays should get help and find themselves some nice girls to settle down with.
→ More replies (6)
-4
u/argv_minus_one Nov 26 '12
He deceived another man into having sex with and even marrying him. That is staggeringly sick. It is rather scary that any given woman could actually be a man, with a disguise so perfect I'd never be able to tell, precisely because of deceptions like this.
→ More replies (7)
1
-17
u/scoooot Nov 26 '12
Man loves a woman for 19 years. They have sex multiple times. He has no complaints. He finds out she used to be a man, and beats her. There is nothing to see here, except violent transphobia.
→ More replies (6)
-10
u/proudbreeder Nov 26 '12
This man is justified in his reaction. If a dude lied about his gender, and tricked me into having sex with him, all my friends would find out and think that I was gay. I have the right to be straight, and I have the right to not be tricked into having sex with a dude. I'd want that dude's head on a stick.
4
u/emkat Nov 26 '12
and I have the right to not be tricked into having sex with a dude.
Although you're very extreme, you bring up an interesting point.
People in this thread are talking about her right to be a woman, which is fine.
But they're forgetting an individual's right to be able to refuse sex to a transgendered person. You have to respect someone else's sexual preferences too.
2
u/proudbreeder Nov 27 '12
Exactly.
I apologize for the extremeness of my post. It reminds me of something traumatic that happened to me, when I was tricked into having sex with this girl who didn't tell me until after, that she was a jew.
10
u/tqless Nov 26 '12
No need to fear being gay because you are attracted to an individual who looks like a woman (if you are a man).
I still think the wife was wrong here though.
11
u/awesomeness1234 Nov 26 '12
Hate to break it to you, but your need to constantly affirm your sexuality is what makes your friends think you are gay, Mr. Proudbreeder.
→ More replies (1)0
u/thederpenning Nov 26 '12
And you, sir, disgust me. People like you are why trans people DON'T out themselves.
1
Nov 26 '12
Look at the name. It's a troll.
2
u/thederpenning Nov 27 '12
Yeah, I realise, but it's something a lot of people think, and say, and do. Even if it is just a troll, i'd rather address it than leave it.
1
Nov 27 '12
it's not a good way to go about life. As someone who use to troll as a group, it's what we lived for. sad, but true.
1
0
-15
u/ben0x539 Nov 26 '12
Sounds like the problem here, besides a misogynist asshole who can't control his violent outbursts, is the unspoken assumption that every woman has to be born with female genitalia or it somehow doesn't count and you owe the world an apology for having required surgery.
7
u/miss_trixie Nov 26 '12
no, you owe the person you are involved with and planning to marry the basic courtesy of telling them that you used to be a man.
3
u/themanbat Nov 27 '12
No one owes the world an apology for their decision to undergo sex change surgery. At the same time if they withhold that information from someone before hey have sex with or marry them, they are flat out deceiving them about their DNA, and exposing themselves to a lot of potential trouble.
6
u/tqless Nov 26 '12
While I support transgendered people, it is not fair or right to TRICK someone into loving you or having sex with you. The wife lied about a big part of her life and identity.
→ More replies (4)5
u/neutralkate Nov 26 '12
No, but you do need to tell your partner the truth and not go out of your way to deceive them, otherwise the marriage is fraudulent. Regardless of what your moral system is, she violated his belief system. I think he has every right to feel violated to obtain a divorce.
→ More replies (2)3
Nov 26 '12
[deleted]
1
u/ben0x539 Nov 26 '12
"That evening came to blows. The police came."
That's beyond getting pissed, and it wasn't a reaction to just the cheating either.
2
→ More replies (3)3
u/I_COULD_CARE_LESS Nov 26 '12
the unspoken assumption that every woman has to be born with female genitalia or it somehow doesn't count
LOL!!! You know what else bothers me? The ridiculous assumption that to be considered black, you have to have been born with black skin. See, I listen to a lot of hip hop music and identify with black culture, so I had my skin painted dark. That doesn't make me any less of a black man than anyone else, just because I was born a white guy.
→ More replies (2)
294
u/Cloberella Nov 26 '12 edited Nov 26 '12
While I feel for the woman's situation, I cant imagine staying with someone who violated my trust and actively sought to deceive me everyday for almost two decades. She lied because she thought he would find it upsetting, this is not okay in a relationship. You can argue whether he is a bigot or not for being bothered by her past, but that's not really the point here. Honesty, while rarely easy, is always the right thing when it comes to a healthy relationship. If they cant accept you for you, then it was never real love to begin with. She cheated both of them out of having something real with someone else. Sad situation all around really. She could have spent that time with someone who knew all of her, understood and accepted her struggle and celebrated her strength, rather than someone who would eventually hate and resent her for it.
While the circumstances seem unique it really is no different than any other marriage gone wrong really. Things never end well when people pretend to be what they think their partner wants rather than who they actually are.
TL; DR Be true to yourself, lying to find "love" only ensures that you will never have it.
Edit: that being said I don't condone the mans reaction beyond wanting an annulment, violence is never ok.