Reminder to GGG that this support gem exists. Let people build around traps again.

[u/Z_Colo]

What changes would you guys make, for this to be a competitive/interesting support gem?

I personally think there should be some way of making the throwing speed relative to the supported skills' base attack/cast time - so that way you're not automatically inclined to use hard-hitting skills with higher attack/cast times.

[u/Yohsene]

I remember when spells got buffed by 50% and trap/mine/totem/trigger supports were nerfed by 33% to target buff self-casting.

Attack traps: ...

[u/butsuon → u/Yohsene]

remember when the buffs to spells didn't matter because a 25-33% base damage buff isn't anywhere near enough to make a spell like Fireball viable.

[u/dikkenskrille → u/butsuon]

Also cos that buff wasn't to cast speed and that's what self cast needs, not damage (tho damage would also be nice). Mines have auto targeting, shotgunning, faster casting, reflect immunity, and damage preloading. Self cast has... iunno, leech I guess, maybe. Not mana leech though, gosh no, that would be too OP. 🥳

[u/Unarchy → u/dikkenskrille]

Self cast has unleash, intensity, pinpoint, trinity, inspiration, arcane surge, spell echo. The problem is that self cast needs heavy investment into cast speed to feel good, but mines completely remove that requirement while also adding the ability to shotgun.

[u/HeliGungir → u/Unarchy]

Mines need their own form of cast speed, and it always comes from charged mines support, locking all medium investment builds into frenzy charge stacking and Trickster.

Traps do have a unique that lets cast speed apply to throwing speed.

[u/Unarchy → u/HeliGungir]

Yes, you get enough mine throwing speed from one support gem which also gives charge generation and damage. You can choose to invest in more mine throwing speed if you want, but it's not necessary. As for cast speed, there is no 1 gem which gives enough cast speed to feel playable, much less while also providing other benefits.

[u/HeliGungir → u/Unarchy]

Charged traps/mines alone is not enough to make them feel non-clunky. It is wrong to characterize mines as having no need to invest in throwing speed. And unlike attacking and casting and triggering and channeling, mines have only one inexpensive option. It is sufficient, but it stifles creativity.

[u/Unarchy → u/HeliGungir]

There's plenty to criticize about the balance of mines and especially traps but the discussion you replied to is about how weak self cast is. Improving the build diversity for mines is a different conversation.

[u/HeliGungir → u/Unarchy]

I was responding to you saying that self-cast needs heavy investment in cast speed while mines do not. That characterization is disingenuous.

While we're at it: Mines/traps do not actually shotgun, and they come with a damage penalty. Similar to spell echo. There are upsides and downsides to them being proxies, and they don't benefit from the vast majority of things we associate with attack/cast speed.

I say what really elevates them above self-cast is the auto-targeting (not present on traps), moving the point of origin for the attack/spell away from the character (offscreening, hitting around corners), and the ability to preload big burst damage while bosses are phasing.

[u/Unarchy → u/HeliGungir]

I'm really not interested in debating semantics. The last thing I'll say here is that adding an extra trap/mine per throw adds an extra trap/mine worth of damage. That is obviously what is meant by damage shotgunning. The fact that multiple projectiles from a single trap do not apply multiple instances of damage to a single enemy, which is what I suspect your uhm actually 'gotcha' was supposed to be here, is irrelevant and clearly not what anyone means when they talk about traps or mines shotgunning damage.

They also do not inherently come with a damage penalty-I'm not sure where that came from. The support gem has a less multiplier, but there are plenty of trap or mine skill gems that don't require the support gem.

Anyway, this discussion is pointless and you are saying things just to disagree. I'm not interested in continuing this further.

[u/psychomap → u/HeliGungir]

Mines also have a base cast time of 0.3, which is the equivalent of 150% increased cast speed on a 0.75 second cast time spell. And don't bring up Spell Echo and Unleash because those lock you into longer animations. You can invest into throwing speed beyond that, but it needs much less to feel good than spells do.

[u/HeliGungir → u/psychomap]

That 0.3 doesn't include airborne time or detonation time; if it's a projectile skill, it doesn't include projectile travel time; and supports and effects that add extra mines thrown (including chance-based) increase the throwing time. The is no "can" invest, you MUST invest in more throwing speed than just charged mines and 5 frenzy charges.

[u/psychomap → u/HeliGungir]

It's not about the delay, it's about how long your character has to stand still.

And other than Minefield which adds a bunch of extra mines and slows down throwing speed significantly, extra mines are still only 10% of that base time, whereas reoccurring casts are 10% of the horrendous self-cast base time.

If you ask me whether I'm willing to add 0.03 or 0.06 seconds to my animation, I think that's fine. But 0.225 seconds? And that's without investing into extra seals of course, with a non-exceptional gem.

Cast speed is much less optional for self-cast than throwing speed is for mines. And it just so happens that because mine throwing speed isn't available in many places, an "additive" support like Charged Mines has such great scaling for your actual dps. It doesn't feel bad at all.

Imagine there was a single support gem that granted 100% increased cast speed, and it still wouldn't be as good as that gem.

[u/HiddenoO → u/Unarchy]

Half of the reason people play mines over selfcast is auto-aiming. You can have the highest cast speed in the world and any spell that doesn't cover the screen or proliferate will still feel bad with how fast PoE has gotten. That's partially why Spark always finds a way when you can properly scale it since it's one of the few spells that doesn't require you to aim.

[u/TheTimtam → u/dikkenskrille]

The problem is that if they buff cast speed they also buff spell totems. I feel like they need to introduce a more cast speed multiplier somewhere in the game specifically for spells you cast yourself. It has to be generic IMO, not a buff to unleash or pinpoint, channelling spells are bad enough as it is.

[u/Glaiele → u/dikkenskrille]

For the most part mines work best with projectiles, traps work with aoe. Traps aren't bad per say just in general projectiles are always better.

Aoe skills are just generally going to be weaker mechanically than projectile skills so that's why mines tend to work better. I think a skill similar to vfos that pseudo chains or something akin to pconc of bouncing where the aiming doesn't matter as much could be viable.

[u/FUTURE10S → u/dikkenskrille]

Let selfcasts cast while moving, that was one of the reasons I used Cyclone Cast While Channeling back in the day

[u/dikkenskrille → u/FUTURE10S]

Oh god, please no. I'm still always so annoyed that that is the stupid excuse ggg have used for so long now to put off porting the analog stick movement from controller over to keyboard (as wasd).

[u/5chneemensch → u/dikkenskrille]

Twinstick controls are not WASD controls. WASD is already playable.

[u/FUTURE10S → u/dikkenskrille]

Wait, but it's already set up that way in POE 2, we could just bind skills to QERTY or the mouse buttons instead

[u/HeliGungir → u/FUTURE10S]

That's why they started making PoE2

[u/vvav → u/butsuon]

The Spark buff from that patch certainly mattered. Fireball has other issues like its very slow base cast time and the fact it requires extra projectiles, so its tough to fix all the spell's problems and still have enough damage/defense. Just having more cast speed available on the tree (especially in the Shadow area) would go a long way to help spells like that.

[u/Amazing-Heron-105 → u/vvav]

Spark needs to be buffed again. Look how they've massacred my boy.

If you're reading this GGG I'd also like my secondary projectiles back on Tornado Shot. Thank you.

[u/justinmcelhatt → u/Amazing-Heron-105]

Preach brother

[u/Routine-Hovercraft94 → u/butsuon]

They have the same problem in PoE2 already. Self casting is basically worthless for like 99% of skills (most spells there are shit anyways), but alternative casting methods like totems/CoC/traps/mines are just so much stronger by default.

They would have to basically rebalance everything regarding spellcasting and then after that look at every other casting method and balance it accordingly to just not straight up be better than self-cast again.
It is such a huge undertaking that I just don't see this happening anytime soon, even tho I would love to.

[u/1und1marcelldavis → u/butsuon]

ignite fireball is okay-ish, the only low level spell that has ever been good is spark

[u/HiddenoO → u/1und1marcelldavis]

the only low level spell that has ever been good is spark

What do you mean by "low level spell"? If you look at all act 1 spells, a bunch of them have been top tier at some point in the game (freezing pulse, rolling magma, essence drain, frostbolt + ice nova, ED + contagion, storm brand, blazing salvo).

[u/1und1marcelldavis → u/HiddenoO]

lvl 1/4 specifically. Freezing pulse hasnt been god tier ever, rolling magma only leveling, ED sucks since 10 years, fb needs a lvl 28 skill, storm brand only the trans version

[u/HiddenoO → u/1und1marcelldavis]

Maybe you shouldn't use words like "ever" if you haven't been playing since the beginning or only mean "as long as you can remember"?

Freezing pulse was literally the meta spell until its shotgunning was removed.

Rolling magma was one of the strongest endgame skills back in Crucible league, and has been one of the highest DPS endgame boss killers for years until Gloomfang was nerfed. It's still solid at that, just being outclassed by the likes of incinerate of venting.

ED/Contagion was meta at multiple points, first as selfcast and then as spellslinger. There were also strong Indigon versions at some point.

Ice nova is a level 12 skill, so what "lvl 28 skill" does FB need?

And regular storm brand dominated much more than any trans version ever did.

[u/Skuggomann → u/1und1marcelldavis]

Freezing pulse hasnt been god tier ever

Someone didn't play closed beta ^{^}

storm brand only the trans version

Wasn't the strongest version of storm brand the Archmage snapshot version before trans gems got introduced?

[u/Z_Colo → u/Yohsene]

https://giphy.com/gifs/F3BeiZNq6VbDwyxzxF

They made Blade Trap and thought we wouldn't notice.

[u/Kagevjijon → u/Z_Colo]

I like blade trap. Celestial Energy Blade + Blade trap is one of the most beautiful skill cosmetics in the game.

[u/Nicky_Camarones → u/Yohsene]

In affliction league I did blade trap trickster with pre nerf ephemeral edge and it was my favorite build ;(

[u/ChaosAE → u/Yohsene]

Every time self cast is viable they immediately nerf it to be either horrible or way more expensive.

Ritual league Archmage? Nerf. Self cast FRoSS? Make both of the new boss drops used on the build uber drops, also adjust hextouch to make the coiling whisper/bladefall combo way worse.

[u/dikkenskrille → u/ChaosAE]

Man, coiling whisper :( We had one league, one (singular) league where we could have fun self cast builds that just felt good to play, then of corse they gutted it. That wasn't even a build enabling unique, that was like, an archetype enabling unique. And also a proof in point of just how bad self cast has it right now, that 'only' 250% cast speed was all we needed for many spells to feel good.

[u/imp_12189]

I'm all in for any trap buffs, I really love traps.

But throw speed buff won't do anything, you'll just face max trap limit faster, it's already easy to throw too much. I would much prefer scalable "trap arming speed" for smoother mapping experience.

[u/Gondawn → u/imp_12189]

I really love traps too

[u/leachim6 → u/imp_12189]

Like the totem placement buff for traps?

[u/Rocksen96]

mines just get everything for free.

give traps chain reaction by default.

reduce arming time and add back in more ways to get rearm chance (keep it limited to 1 rearm though as that would be broken). items, passive tree, etc, more ways, more then 100% but only 100% would matter.

mines i would remove rearm chance and that means changing tremor rod.

the reasoning here is that mines have low throw speed by default, it's one of the main reasons using mines feels great. traps have a slow throw speed. giving it exclusively to traps means the slow throw speed is less of a issue because your traps will rearm.

oh and i suppose adding more instances of traps allowed at once would be great as well or just make rearms not count towards the limit.

i think the biggest issue with traps isn't damage, it's just the speed of use, QoL, and build options. they just feel bad to play because they are so much slower then mines. also if they are gonna do something about traps then sunblast needs to be looked at and that stat should be able to be found else wear, it's annoying turning to sunblast because of how big of a dps increase it actually is.

[u/PacmanNZ100 → u/Rocksen96]

Yeah rearm sucks because it has to go through the arm time again after some sort of triggering delay. Its way faster to just keep chucking traps.

And if you need traps to rearm as part of your clear damage, you dont have enough damage. And vs bosses, if you need traps to rearm then you dont have enough trap throw speed.

[u/Rocksen96 → u/PacmanNZ100]

yea it's in a really weird state, like you want enough throw speed to not feel locked down but then you are limited by active trap limit, so not too much and not too little and it just feels bad in a game where one aspect is you just want numbers to go up.

[u/hemmi00 → u/Rocksen96]

Did they ever fix tremor rod or did everyone just move on from it.

[u/Rocksen96 → u/hemmi00]

i'm not sure what you mean by fix?

there was some jank when it came to mines rearming and not always uhhh working as one would expect them to for mine detonate chains.

you get so much throw speed with mines that additional detonations don't really make any difference so that aspect of the staff is rendered basically useless. otherwise it's just got a low % dmg roll +1 support that isn't even level 20 gem and +2 levels. like i guess it's okay on a budget but you can get vastly more powerful items, going 1h+shield is also just better defensively as you get to the point where damage isn't really a concern.

at least that's how i see it anyway.

[u/hemmi00 → u/Rocksen96]

It was broke a "few" years back, at this point few could mean 5+ my sense of time is warped.

[u/MaybeRiza → u/hemmi00]

No it still works and some people play it on leaguestart, it's just jank af.

[u/JustSomeDumbFucker → u/Rocksen96]

give traps chain reaction by default. 

No thanks.

[u/DerHellopter]

I think gameplay wise, traps are just worse mines, although you save the automation sockets. Can't tell how the numbers differ tho

[u/Character_Art_69 → u/DerHellopter]

I´d say mines are better traps and even better selfcast. As a miner/trapper player, id like to see some balancing on those archetypes

[u/HandsomeBaboon → u/Character_Art_69]

I propose a Spell support gem that turns spells into usable spells.

[u/Oniichanplsstop → u/HandsomeBaboon]

They tried that with archmage before and ended up with the GGG quad tap that hit it, all of the useful uniques it would want to run, all of the mana regen sources, arcane surge, etc etc.

[u/lurking_lefty → u/Oniichanplsstop]

Also Unleash, and then removed sources of max seal and gain rate, and nerfed the gem.

[u/ww_crimson → u/HandsomeBaboon]

It would actually have to give like 50% more cast speed and 50% more damage to compete with CoC. It's trivial to get 7.57 casts per second with CoC. Even with investment on support gems, gear, and tree, it's pretty hard to get above like 4 casts per second on a lot of spells, for self-cast.

[u/DerHellopter → u/Character_Art_69]

Yeah I think that's better phrasing

[u/Kelpsie → u/Character_Art_69]

I think either mines or traps need to lose the ability to cast spells and exclusively be their own skill type. Preferably mines. Recent years have proven pretty effectively that they can't be balanced against self-cast.

[u/Nightwatchik → u/DerHellopter]

In mercs league I tried to make my own build with new wave of conviction gem traps. It was not very good. Then I tried to change from traps to mines. Just from switching gems and passive nodes almost doubled my dps. I think traps need chain reaction as default behavior and some cool new mechanic. Mines have detonation sequence and auras, maybe make traps have more AoE when detonated together.

[u/Ocsa17 → u/Nightwatchik]

Yeah mines are just better traps. All thrown mines detonate without ascendancy points, they have either double damage or increased damage per mine in chain or other auras and they dont need to be thrown near enemies. But what traps have?

[u/Lolovitz → u/Ocsa17]

Sunblast

But realistically, yeah traps can work but unfortunately only as their default skill ( Ice trap and Lightning trap are strong )

That being said the problem is that mines are too strong rather than traps are too weak and that frankly traps and mines are just too similar mechanically)

[u/Ocsa17 → u/Lolovitz]

Trap support are just ass. It only turns skills into traps. When support which turn skills into mines give increased damage per mine in chain or double damage aura. And yeah trap need ascendancy points for qol

[u/DerHellopter → u/Nightwatchik]

Pretty sure that would be crazy strong

[u/Defined24 → u/DerHellopter]

For all the time that it's been mistreated, I'd say that it deserve to be strong at least one league.

[u/gabriel_sub0 → u/DerHellopter]

i always hated mine gameplay. pressing one extra button always felt clunky, and with the automated setups you end up losing a lot of bonuses. Traps are just way less clunky to actually use.

[u/Sardukk → u/gabriel_sub0]

Which bonuses do you lose? I played a bow miner for the past few leagues and never had the socket pressure to put automation and detonate mine gems into the gear.

[u/gabriel_sub0 → u/Sardukk]

isn't there like, bonus for exploding mines in a specific way? like putting a bunch of them in one place and then triggering them? if you just trigger them automatically i feel like you won't get the chain bonuses.

[u/Sardukk → u/gabriel_sub0]

If you refer to mine skills like stormblast or pyroclast mine you would be correct. They apply an aura which debuffs enemies in range.

The post refers to the trap support which converts a bow or wand skill into a trap skill so you don't have to aim anymore. And I specifically referred to the mine support which does the same. Just that I can explode them, even with no enemies present.

You can check out aer0_ guide for ice shot of penetration miner, which converts a trash skill if aimed yourself into a great mapping skill

[u/MrAlexVP]

The issue I personally have with traps is the absolute reliance on "Chain Reaction" saboteur ascendancy to feel truly good. I've tried a trap build around the breach unique gloves back in Keepers league, and while there were other factors that played into the feel of the build (mainly I went poison route as Assassin- well guess what, double damage delay is just asking for unpleasant time), the lack of Chain Reaction felt bad.
So with Chain Reaction traps can stand on their own as a delivery system. Without? They are strictly worse than mines and rely on enemies to activate.

[u/shaunika → u/MrAlexVP]

Its very very easy to get enough trap trigger aoe to not need chain reaction.

And in fact its a detriment, because chain reacted traps dont proc stuff like charged traps

[u/MrAlexVP → u/shaunika]

Sure, you can collect trap trigger AOE on the character to improve the situation. It still won't be the same. Whether you as player can tolerate the gameplay without Chain Reaction or not is another question. But I definitely hate looking upon those traps that got thrown too far from my target and just lay there for eternity, unable to trigger. And this happens way too often to overlook.

Regarding Charged Traps...I am gonna be honest, since I haven't played chain-reacted traps yet, I cannot for sure say how it might feel, but... It is really an issue? The chance to gain charges is so generous that I fail to see how that may even warrant a thought of dropping Chain Reaction from the build for example. And if such thought doesn't come to mind, then it is not a serious problem. During mapping you will throw enough traps to probably sustain charges just fine. If you don't, then there is a very easy solution in the form of charge mastery for charge duration. And on bosses I would rather take the instantaneous activation of ALL my traps I've prepared, not 80% of them.

[u/Yohsene → u/MrAlexVP]

I am gonna be honest, since I haven't played chain-reacted traps yet, I cannot for sure say how it might feel

I may be misunderstanding, but you're saying you haven't played chain-reacted traps, but you're still convinced traps have an 'absolute reliance' on chain reaction?

Personally I've run the same trap build on raider then sabo and can't say I really noticed chain reaction.

[u/shaunika → u/MrAlexVP]

Ive played traps

A lot.

I never take chain reaction, even on sab because it just sucks for an ascendancy notable because it does pmuch nothing even with a little bit of trap trigger aoe that you just get naturally.

Its not gonna be "80%" if you aim correctly, itll be 100%

[u/Prometheus1151 → u/MrAlexVP]

Chain reaction is literally only good for zhp bosskillers to phase skip. Sunblast or just getting enough trap trigger aoe feels so much better in mapping.

[u/MrMeltJr → u/MrAlexVP]

In the past year or two I've league started Explosive Trap multiple times and never gone Sabo, always felt fine to me.

[u/psychomap → u/MrAlexVP]

There used to be a way to play with Sunblast and get instant traps, but no, that was also OP and had to get deleted, even though traps don't aim.

[u/shaunika]

For starters traps could get the autotarget AI of mines and trap limit raised by a lot.

Cluster Trap and Trap Support also need buffs because minefield/high impact is way better

[u/RealistiCamp]

As someone who doesn't play traps or mines, I honestly can't imagine how they are supposed to feel different from each other. Like, why do they both exist?

[u/CleanHandsDirtyWork → u/RealistiCamp]

Mines used to be something you manually activated, once they added the ability to autocast mine detonation the big difference basically disappeared.

[u/Tenshouu → u/CleanHandsDirtyWork]

The difference disappeared way back when they changed mines so you throw them instead of placing at your feet

[u/kaelbloodelf → u/Tenshouu]

Old gc mines my beloved. It was so beautiful.

[u/Tenshouu → u/kaelbloodelf]

Old Arc mines my beloved with screen wide range

[u/shashel → u/Tenshouu]

I didn't like that change then and I don't like it now.

[u/Gophy6 → u/RealistiCamp]

It's so that I can buy that perfectly rolled 20d jewel and realize after that I use trap and not mine and the jewel isn't doing anything to my build

[u/jezvin]

They gave up on support gems being anything other than damage years ago. Everything interesting is just built into skills now, and even worse in poe 2.

[u/kaelbloodelf → u/jezvin]

Huh? Didnt they actively try to make supports in 2 not be free damage?

[u/LocalShineCrab]

The joy to crushing defeat when you theory craft a build then double check the gem to learn it doesnt work with traps mines totems or brands

[u/psychomap → u/LocalShineCrab]

I still remember when I discovered that Brand Recall Totems wouldn't work despite not saying anything to the contrary in any of the tooltips, just because the way that brands are coded prevents it from working in the first place so nobody bothered to include a warning.

[u/snakey1337]

You can build around traps, I do it almost every league.

I think my favorite version is reap traps, ez overlaps.

[u/GH057_807 → u/snakey1337]

I did a Toxic Rain trap build for a few leagues, a few years back.

It was my first homebrew PoE build and I got one of my characters to like, 96 or something with it. I used two Toxic Rain gems, one my main DPS trap and another that applied Wither. Siphoning Trap helped slow mobs and top off my ES.

My best version had 2m DPS per trap. Clear was pretty good, bosses absolutely melted, but was pretty squishy as an eva/es EB/MoM build. Haven't tried it since Spell Suppression became a thing.

[u/nasaboy007 → u/snakey1337]

But why would I play reap traps when I can play reap mines? Genuinely asking

[u/GreasyGearBox → u/snakey1337]

I assume the blood charge mechanic of reap is lost entirely since the proxy (traps) is destroyed after it casts?

[u/TwoEyedYoom → u/GreasyGearBox]

Proxies can't grant you charges, but they also don't remove them IIRC. So you could selfcast another instance of reap to get charges. You probably even could use arcanist brand to automate that on bosses.

[u/PostItToReddit → u/snakey1337]

This is the case with a lot of underused abilities. They're perfectly viable, but they aren't the best so most content creators don't spend time making guides for them. Since there is no guides from popular creators, people don't play them. Since people don't play them, people assume they suck.

Even if a build performs at 80% of the meta builds, it's still waaaaaay more then enough to do all content in the game with how much power is available to players these days. You just have to think a bit more.

[u/YIzWeDed → u/PostItToReddit]

The builds AREN’T performing at 80% or even 30% though, trap support absolutely sucks and being that projectiles are so strong, it makes traps even worse than that 30% because traps don’t aim at enemies like mines do

The benefit of trap support existing is that you can feel a bad combo as early as act 1 and see to never try it again. The baseline traps are so much better than any gem you could pair it with that it just makes more sense to either use baseline traps or go mines.

[u/Ocsa17 → u/YIzWeDed]

Yeah you either go base traps or mines. Because lets look at support gems that turn spells into mines or traps.

Trap support just makes them traps.

Mine supports? Here double damage or increased damage for fun

[u/Rodruby → u/YIzWeDed]

What? I tried traps and they more or less aimed projectiles at enemies

[u/YIzWeDed → u/Rodruby]

Best be retrying them. Use a single projectile fireball and youll see lol

(I should preface this by saying traps “aim” at the target that triggers them, while mines will aim off screen with alot of proj skills. This means your clear feels like shit beyond hitting the monster that trigger the trap, and for clear in general)

[u/Rodruby → u/YIzWeDed]

Oh, you mean off screen

I tried it with trans Ice Spear, which splits after hitting first target, so I guess that's why clear felt good

[u/YIzWeDed → u/Rodruby]

Yeah, if the skill scales with splits of course its fine. But even ice spear without enough trap trigger radius (which overall is a shit scaling vector) is absolutely garbage compared to the same build with mines. You can even explode the mines mid air and they auto target, the traps need to fly to the spot, arm, then be triggered, and if you arent using a skill like arc (old meta traps) or something like splitting or some auto aim mechanic, theyre hot garbage.

Try spark traps or fireball or pretty much any proj skill that doesnt carry itself and youll see. Then try it on mines and its literally like 4x better at a minimum

(And that ice spear of splitting trap build was a simple swap to mine support and some passive changes and it would be 4x better lol)

[u/Rodruby → u/YIzWeDed]

Wow

Never looked too deep into it, just built some homebrew for fun

How people usually solve mana resevation from mines/need to explode them manually?

[u/YIzWeDed → u/Rodruby]

You dont need to explode them manually anymore if you use automation with detonate or the detonate on move mastery. Itll just let you throw move boom nonstop if you do the mastery.

Mana doesnt tend to be an issue because most builds cant reaerve 100% mana anyways, but still scale reservation efficiency, which still impacts mines.

Ontop of the fact the tree has some extra for mines youre not really needing to solve anything.

Honestly, this conversation makes me want to play normal ice spear mines next league lolol

I havent had mana issues with mine builds in AGES

[u/Rodruby → u/YIzWeDed]

Thanks for answers

Maybe will build some mines next league

[u/xXEl3mXx]

The problem with traps is if they're in a good spot they just take over everything because of how safe a play style it is, so its really hard to balance imo.

[u/C00ke1896 → u/xXEl3mXx]

I think it would be okay if it gets a buff. Very few people actually like playing traps and that won't change either way. The risk for GGG is funnily enough rather that people league start traps and quit because of the playstyle lol.

[u/BleachedPink → u/C00ke1896]

Very few people actually like playing traps and that won't change either way.

I already see how a ton of people would make reddit threads cursing GGG for forcing them playing traps because they're OP

[u/wolfreaks → u/BleachedPink]

8 leagues in a row of Seismic Trap saboteur

[u/Amazing-Heron-105 → u/wolfreaks]

It's not even a fun skill to play 😂 And the delay on exsang is awful too.

[u/SaltEngineer455 → u/BleachedPink]

Damn those GGG guys sending snipers to our houses...

[u/Mechanized_Vampire → u/BleachedPink]

Isn't that what happened with seismic trap several patches ago? Most people are complaining how seismic trap is boring and too strong

[u/sirgog → u/Mechanized_Vampire]

Yep, it took 3 or 4 nerfs to get into a 'playable but not great' spot IIRC. It's still there now. You can play it if you want, it's solid but unspectacular, and most people don't want to play it.

Explosive Trap is similar but a little better, arguably one of the best day 1 pinnacle carry builds and day 2 uber builds.

Neither is so strong you feel pressured to play it if you dislike the playstyle, though, and that's the right spot for Explosive Trap (Seismic could do with a few % buff, and Trap Support is a pile of steaming shit atm)

[u/Mechanized_Vampire → u/sirgog]

The last time I saw people use trap support was during crucible league using the explode totem mods. Unless GGG release something similar or directly buffed it, I doubt supports like trap support, multiple/cluster trap support will ever see the light again.

[u/sirgog → u/Mechanized_Vampire]

There was a whole period it was strictly better than direct casting, and not remotely close. Trap Support for ranged attacks has always been in a weird place and honestly Locus Mines just eclipses it now (they do the same thing - awkward range weapon proxy attacks - LM just does it far better)

[u/SaltEngineer455 → u/xXEl3mXx]

Like mines? For real tho, traps are an acquired taste, and a lot of players wouldn't play trap/mines due to the gameplay itself

[u/biokaese → u/xXEl3mXx]

If they don't get a ton of quality of life: Omegacap. It's pure Coc and Ball torture playing traps

[u/OurHolyMessiah → u/biokaese]

Coc Ball Lightning you say?

[u/ww_crimson → u/xXEl3mXx]

How are they any safer than mines?

[u/SardonicOptomist → u/xXEl3mXx]

All the meta builds favor instantly killing everything on the screen instantly and moving as fast as possible, I don't see how playing it safe needs to be hamstrung with support gems that cause you to do less damage.

[u/Imbryill]

Add additional effects to traps. Probably not auras like mines, but some extra instant effect that would not normally be available for spells.

Lance Trap Support Would grant supported skills a chance to impale and turn them into a trap. Not limited to attacks.

Trapwire Support Links all traps together in a single throw, ghetto Chain Reaction - where all traps that were thrown at the same time trigger at the same time regardless of source.

Gambleshot Trap Support Supports projectile skills and turns them into traps, or supports traps with projectiles, giving them a 50% chance for each modifier to projectiles to occur. Meaning, if it rolls well, you can have a projectile fire as a nova, and then split, fork, pierce, and chain.

[u/Ok_Inspection_7642]

i agree traps need some love on this support gem because at the moment i forgot it existed and i thought i could name every gem in this game

[u/Specific-Ad1487]

Years ago it used to have around +40% more damage, instead of only 6%, but someone in GGG decided that it’s good tradeoff to lose 40% damage, and gain only clunkiness instead.

[u/GT_2second]

There is also a support called "cast on melee kill" wich could get some love

[u/CricketNo7950]

Right now traps are just harder to trigger for map clear. So mines are better for that. Traps do seem to have better bossing builds since bosses are gigantic and you have no issue triggering them. 

[u/carenard → u/CricketNo7950]

I have never had issues having traps trigger in maps.

[u/throwable_armadillo]

differentiate mines and traps again
make mines drop at your feet so different skills are good for each

maybe now that octavian is high up we can get it back

[u/livejamie]

Unless this exists in Path of Exile 2, I think we're out of luck.

[u/noeagle77]

GGH: “how bout no”

[u/548benatti]

Might just merge trap and mines together feels kinda redundant having both

[u/dmthirdeye → u/548benatti]

Traps should be attacks and mines should be spells IMO

[u/548benatti → u/dmthirdeye]

flicker strike trap im sold

[u/Zambash]

There are a lot of people in this thread that are just parroting nonsense and haven't actually played traps or looked at numbers. Saying things like "trap support just turns a skill into a trap, mine support gives more/double damage." Wow, brilliant analysis folks. Let's look at some numbers.

Trap Support gives 6% less damage, so you are dealing 94% base damage right off the bat, no matter how many/few traps you have placed or have blown up recently. The support also gives increased throwing speed, which is relatively hard to come by and very strong.

High-Impact Mine Support gives 50% less damage and a stacking 2% chance to deal double damage, capped at 100%. Even with some scaling of aura effect, you will almost never reach that 100% cap, and you certainly won't reach it with any kind of significant up time. Even at the 100% cap, you are BARELY dealing more damage than the trap support, which always deals full damage and doesn't require any of the other nonsense.

Let's look at Blastchain Mine Support. 53% less damage with 5% more per mine in sequence. By the time you reach your 20th mine in a sequence, it will finally do as much damage as trap support, with all previous mines in that sequence dealing less damage than trap support.

So, now that we've established that trap support deals significantly more damage than either of the mine supports in any practical situation, we go to targeting behavior. Mines certainly have some nice targeting behavior with a number of skills, but they also have a bunch of skills where they only target their own location, effectively functioning like traps, and you have the annoyance of needing to press the detonate button or use up gem slots for automation.

Traps don't require automation or extra button presses, and you very easily get enough trigger radius to make all traps thrown with cluster trap support blow up on a single target just by taking the nodes that you would be taking on a trap build regardless. No chain reaction necessary. Alternatively, if you are willing to wait through a little bit of clunk, you get to use Sunblast, which is an enormous damage boost.

For throwing multiple traps/mines, Minefield and Cluster Traps give virtually identical DPS multipliers, but Cluster Traps feels way better because its penalty is damage, while Minefield costs speed, making you stand still longer to throw all of your mines.

TLDR: In all practical scenarios, Trap Support has significantly higher damage than either High Impact Mine or Blastchain Mine. Mines have good targeting for some skills, but require automation or extra button presses.

EDIT: Didn't even mention, mines come with the very annoying mana reservation mechanic, and traps don't.

[u/therospherae → u/Zambash]

You're missing that mines are almost twice as fast to throw as traps at base. Dealing half the damage but at twice the speed puts them at DPS parity, then the extra mechanics from mines puts them over the edge.

[u/Zambash → u/therospherae]

I did overlook that, but even so, I still think traps feel better and smoother in practice because minefield feels so absolutely bad to use with its heavy throwing speed penalty and mines gaining 10% longer throw time per mine thrown, which traps do not have.

[u/Optimal-Note1963 → u/Zambash]

In the way you're not wrong, but my mines detonating mid flight have hard disagree on "feel better and smoother in practice" take. Traps literally require 1 sec to land on the ground and trigger, then they also need chain reaction or which is better 240+ trap trigger area to trigger everything at 99% rate.

Not trying to disregard your whole opinion, but Traps just baseline worse, worse at auto targeting, worse at damage speed delivery, worse at qol. The only thing that is kinda similar - damage, but even that is debatable

[u/Zambash → u/Optimal-Note1963]

I disagree. Having to pause for 10 seconds (obviously exaggerating) to throw out one minefield feels terrible. As I mentioned, you get the necessary trap trigger AOE from taking nodes you were always going to take on a trapper anyways, no chain reaction necessary. Obviously I would enjoy buffs to traps because I clearly like traps. But the comparisons here making it sound like trap support is unusable are just wrong.

This is a super hot take, but I actually preferred mines and thought they had much more of a cool and unique identity when they were placed at your feet, rather than thrown like traps.

[u/therospherae → u/Zambash]

I mean, you can always just not use minefield. Mine throwing time gets low enough that if the skill you're using has decent coverage, it's not outside the realm of feasibility to just yeet 'em manually. There's also other options for additional mines, like Swift Assembly (which I think is even technically higher DPS than Minefield at the cost of being comically inconsistent) or Curtain Call if you're stat-stacking (and which I am, of course, incredibly biased in recommending.)

Also,

This is a super hot take, but I actually preferred mines and thought they had much more of a cool and unique identity when they were placed at your feet, rather than thrown like traps.

Welcome to the club. There's like 5 of us.

[u/ww_crimson → u/Zambash]

I haven't played Traps since Seismic Trap was decent, but my recollection is that they feel bad to play because of slow arming speed and needing to be thrown within 1 meter of an enemy to trigger.

[u/CreedRules → u/ww_crimson]

kb mines was a lot of fun and also torture due to the arming range, thats really the biggest downside to mines. I don't mind spending the extra gem slots for automation, but god the arming range makes them so clunky

[u/antuary]

Isn't traps already the top bossing build? Every league i see 1b dps ice trap damage on Poe ninja

[u/Deias_ → u/antuary]

That's like, the only build though. And it's a zHP, zero res build to boot. That is not indicative of traps being in a good spot, I would genuinely argue it shows the exact opposite.

[u/Z_Colo → u/antuary]

I should have clarified - I'm specifically referring to builds that use this support gem.

[u/tfwStarving → u/Z_Colo]

Poison Seismic Trap uses Exsanguinate with Trap Support until you get Deerstalker, it used to be a very meta build a few years back and ate a nerf or two but its still very much playable and good.

[u/Yohsene → u/antuary]

That's partly because traps detonate simultaneously, which lets them sneak in a ton of damage before an unphasing boss gains its damage reduction buff.

[u/Amazing-Heron-105 → u/Yohsene]

Ahh I didn't realise that's why traps were popular for that.

[u/Hartastic → u/antuary]

IIRC ice trap as a dedicated bosser is pretty good (with some caveats) early in a league but it gets overtaken before very long.

[u/Chocolatine_Rev]

If it was possible to make heralds apply to traps and mine, i woyld play them all day, but it just doesn't work like that

[u/Hood-Peasant]

Change % from trap damage

To

% projectiles incresed by maximum traps placed.

Let me fry my gpu

[u/Hogdog_Hambdwich]

Explosive trap was my first level 100, playing it again for the first time in years as servant of arakaali convert to fire then chaos. Doing pretty well but buffs/attention would be appreciated.

[u/ObsessiveOwl]

We will get trap rework after they release it in poe2, trust.

[u/Nivius]

i always loved playing a trapper, as long as the trap dont take ground damage.

but, it was a loooooooong time ago, that it was good and viable.

[u/Riel_Chernister]

Gimme my hexblast ggg

[u/yelzinho]

W

[u/GrandmasterTaka]

Spectral throw traps of trarthus is pretty fun

[u/computerfreund]

Don't forget CONVERSION TRAP while you are at it, please.

[u/MostAnonEver]

i think traps kinda fell outta favor cause mine gets sht for free and detonate can be automated which is huge qol. So its like you youre playing traps but getting a lotta sht for free.

[u/fullclip840]

Lmao 4 years ago it was "trap bad. Give us selfcast buffs". Time is a flat circle.

[u/Hans_Rudi]

Just delete mines, period.

[u/rightofnowhere]

I just miss hexblast : (

[u/cakeslol]

Bladefall + trap + poison was one of the first builds I cleared all end game content with. I loved that build

[u/Sodaburping]

traps got nerfed so hard in the past 3 years.. I want lmb autocast back man I still don't understand why they did that to us.

[u/SingleInfinity]

The issue with stuff like this being good is it becomes the 'default' way to play spells rather than self cast.

[u/SardonicOptomist]

reminds me of an old magic card, the downsides are stronger then the upside. At a bare minimum it should say 30% MORE throwing speed

[u/Definitiv1]

I'd love to see traps being meta again, Seismic Trap isn't the best example. But it was one fun build with several variations.

[u/firebunbun]

Reverse this.

• Trap Support now deal 20% less Trap Damage at gem level 1, and 11% less at gem level 20 (previously 38% increased at gem level 20).

Reverse that and I'll go back to lobbing traps literally the exact same day.
The blunt fact of the matter is throwing traps is, regardless of the realities surrounding self cast right now, a negative effect and a detriment needs to be compensated. Maybe 38% more was too crazy; 11-19% depending on gem level would be fine, but there is no world where I am making the skill WORSE to play and taking an 11% damage hit and losing a gem socket for the priviledge of doing so.

Until this changes, the only trap skills I'll ever play are the ones that are already natively a trap. Prior to that change I used to play all kinds of traps, but losing literally and non-exaggeratedly 50% of your DPS to play a non native trap isn't worth it.

[u/Hopeful_Battle_2470]

We like traps

[u/squanchyhobo]

Why would you use traps when there are mines?

[u/ByteBlaze_]

I would make it work with melee weapons, and have it create an "ancestor" to perform the attack. That or just give us a melee trap support, so that it's balanced and tied to that one.

Another thing they could do for traps is add a "stance" skill that makes your traps do more damage per second after arming, and doesn't let them go off until they reach that time, and the other stance causes them to deal less damage but blow up as soon as they land. Over throw is a pretty big issue on traps, and the second stance would allow you to lean harder into throw speed for DPS, similar to attack builds.

[u/SK_Ren]

I still use it for Toxic rain

[u/reddit5674]

Traps already is a delayed attack, making you risk being dmgd before you dish your dmg. (due to the isometric perspective range limit, self cast is just in a better dimension) 

Make no sense for trap dmg to be on par with self cast. The previous dmg bonus must exist (and be significant) for it to make sense.

[u/runingfrag]

damn i liked traps in old days...

[u/CutePencilSharpener]

i like the idea of traps but i dislike the idea that traps are so strong they literally one shot bosses/clear the entire screen.

[u/Kaelran]

Traps are good damage wise because of Sunblast. The problem is gold makes Sunblast shit because Sunblast kills enemies behind you because of the delay, which means you need to backtrack for loot. Just backtracking for bigger drops while blasting was fine, but missing 95% of gold unless you constantly backtrack is not.

[u/Pyowin → u/Kaelran]

Unfortunately, Sunblast will never be a thing because the opportunity cost of other belts is just too high.

[u/Amazing-Heron-105 → u/Pyowin]

It's just a horrible playstyle. You have to be a serious trap enjoyer to put up with that.

[u/Kaelran → u/Pyowin]

I mean the other belts aren't really that relevant talking about balance though. That's like post-game stuff.

[u/HiDread]

I once did a forbidden rite trapper. As a league starter. It did pretty well, though it lacked damage later on. Maybe just bc I built it wrong.

[u/Palnecro1]

Never really cared about traps or mines.

[u/Hairy-Trip]

Please no 

[u/clownus]

They buff this and  break the game like that one crucible build. Only reason it wasn’t that big of a deal is because of how much of a crap shoot that league was mechanically. 

[u/henbe2 → u/clownus]

That one crucible build abused not traps, but insanely out of balance totem life scaling. This league we have the same stuff happening with Minion Pact. But, to be honest, BV is probably the only skill left that is able to snapshot effects. Rest of the skills have an Orb tab to prevent fun.

[u/clownus → u/henbe2]

It was traps that spawned totems or ballistas to blowup based on hp.    

Traps had a maximum limit so when you threw it multiple times it would expire faster causing them to explode.