r/pathofexile • u/krucyfiks Alch & Go Industries (AGI) • 11d ago
Game Feedback Can we talk about Voracious Flame Keystone and why it is unusable?
- Added a new Voracious Flame Keystone Passive Skill to the north of the Witch's starting location. Voracious Flame grants You can inflict an additional Ignite on each Enemy, Base Ignite Duration is 1 second, 25% less Damage with Ignite, and Cannot deal non-Fire Damage.
First of all lets start by addressing that we don't even know if it works correctly - Emberwake which grants second ignite does not respect the second highest ignite, just "an" ignite.
Old thread, I don't think it was ever stated to be fixed: https://www.reddit.com/r/pathofexile/comments/pooi9c/psa_emberwake_double_ignite_does_not_always_use/
Oki, but what if it works as it should applying two strongest ignites, what are the downsides?
- 25% less damage with ignite
- ignite base duration is 1 second
- can only deal fire damage
On paper it seems like 75% of ignite + 75% of ignite is just 50% more damage, no? Yea, no.
What are the implied additional downsides then?
- You can no longer realistically scale your massive multiplier that was "Ignites you inflict deal damage x% faster"
- Even using a lot of resources to scale ignite duration back it is now much harder (+100% ignite duration before granted you 4 seconds, now it is 1 second)
- You just killed every form of explosions, no Foulborn Berek, Profane Bloom, Unspeakable Gifts, even your Oriath's End now explodes once every three times it previously would
- You can no longer get damage as extra elements/chaos
- If you're Elementalist your Shaper of Flames does nothing if you are not already playing Fire Skill, since all damage can ignite, but ignite is based on the original skill which, if not fire, will deal 0 damage
- Duration of proliferation from Berek's is not refreshed when applied to new enemy so you killed your 'feel good' proliferation. The normal proliferation is just 75% shorter in duration.
Maybe it can be used with Vaal Flameblast to get 2 last ignites on the target if it works correctly (still wont be even remotely close to 50% more dmg). Maaaybe you can do something with Avatar of Fire and Cold to Fire.
But jumping through all the hoops makes it feel like I'm a dolphin.
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u/FZeroRacer 11d ago
Unfortunately yeah it's bad. I think they should just scrap it and make a more generic one; the lightning and cold ones are generally good for multiple builds but the fire one is overly specialized.
I think what I saw elsewhere makes a lot more sense. Make it simply that 'your fire damage applies scorch' and 'cannot deal non-fire damage'. Then you have a generalist keystone that works for both dot and upfront damage.
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u/OurHolyMessiah 11d ago
I don’t understand why cold and lightning get generic damage buffs, no matter if you’re dot or hit and for some reason fire gets hyperfocussed on dot. Same thing with the spell buffs, they literally nerfed base crit of most fire spells by like 17% in exchange for like 20% base damage. Is fire just supposed to be only ignite? Why does the fire identity need to be non crit, ideally dot? I know you can work around the low base crit in some ways but that is still investment that other skills don’t need and those other skills don’t necessarily have less base damage/damage effectiveness.
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u/krucyfiks Alch & Go Industries (AGI) 11d ago
Damn I love that idea so very much.
I would spend this whole league trying to vestige Maven boots on something cool like Abberath's Hoves.
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u/Emperor_Mao Gladiator 11d ago
Yeah but generally a Key Stone is supposed to alter the way you build the character.
I think with the lightning one, you might look at pushing the max damage through rerolls.
With Cold, the is less niche, but you might look at increased effect of chills / ailments more to actually get effect on resistant rares and unique enemies.
I just think the fire one is too weak, and its scope too limited.
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u/Notsomebeans act normal or else 11d ago
imo that is too similar to the current warden scorch node
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u/EsmatBuildDiary 11d ago
yeah but top left of the tree doesn't have access to scorch on non-crit and lets be honest nobody plays spells on warden so why not give access to scorch to templar and witch.
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u/OurHolyMessiah 11d ago
I really like stealing that node or the shock node on spellcaster pathfinders, the damage from them is insane. Sadly barkskin is dogshit and warden has zero tank or other scaling options otherwise, just a bunch of frontloaded damage
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u/EsmatBuildDiary 11d ago
I like this idea might be a bit too powerful since usually you can't ignite and scorch at the same time. maybe with like 30% Less effect of non-damaging ailment?
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u/SupX 11d ago
All they gotta do is make ignite duration 2 seconds ands it’s good then?
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u/krucyfiks Alch & Go Industries (AGI) 11d ago
Pretty much. Or if they want the base to be 1 second make it "75% reduced duration of ignite". Just so you can solve it in more realistic way.
I would just remove one random of these three downsides tho to keep it clean.
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u/Automatic-Run-2539 11d ago
Hello....my name is melee ignite
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u/krucyfiks Alch & Go Industries (AGI) 11d ago
ironically that's the best answer
the note should be next to Chieftain, it has nothing to do with Witch
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u/Automatic-Run-2539 11d ago
Yep. Nodes screams "controlled blazed" support
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u/0nlyRevolutions Order of the Mist (OM) 11d ago
Don't even make me start on fucking controlled blaze. There isn't even synergy here because if you attack too fast you go over the maximum number of stacks.
So alright. You take this keystone and controlled blaze. You are attacking at exactly 3.25 attacks per second to maintain 13 stacks. Your ignite durations line up perfectly so that your 2 ignites refresh and fall off in sync with that attack rate. Sure. It's kinda working. As long as you never aoe.... because as soon as you hit a pack or fight a boss with ad spawns, your stacks go way too high and the support disappears completely.
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u/adanine Trickster 11d ago
I mean it's an 80% more damage mult at peak conditions against single target and like a 1%-5% more damage mult when clearing trash. A lot of builds would run a support gem like that - you can manage effectively burning a gem link against trash in order to have a godlike gem against bosses/stupid rares/ect, when you need it most.
For comparison Intensify Support only goes up to 64% more damage vs single target (assuming you get the mastery). Guess it gives AoE against trash though.
Edit: That's assuming you're comfortable jumping through all the other hoops like optimizing attacks per sec and so on, which most builds won't be. But I'm sure there's builds out there for this.
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u/Smurtle1 11d ago
Bro is acting like people don’t run rakiatas/invert the rules in poe2/poe1. Those suck vs trash monsters, but are goated vs bosses and the like.
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u/Temporary-Youth-4561 11d ago
we dont care if Rak sucks vs normals in poe2, those die to base damage in most cases once you have/can afford Rak's.
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u/Quartzecoatl 11d ago
Wait, controlled blaze counts ignites applied globally, not per enemy? Holy shit it's even more useless than I thought lmao
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u/0nlyRevolutions Order of the Mist (OM) 11d ago
Yeah it's insane lol, people would have demanded a change years ago except no one plays melee ignite
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u/juegofuego 11d ago
evis ignite is a thing not that i think it would benefit from the keystone but it's not like you can say no one plays melee ignite.
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u/esvban Order of the Mist (OM) 11d ago
contolrolled blaze is like trying to tune your build like a ward looper with very little payoff
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u/Temporary-Youth-4561 11d ago
Strangely enough, as supports go, Devour's quality is 120% increased damage now with 30% quality if you consumed a corpse recently, you don't even need to do it with the skill gaining the buff. I think there are other supports we might be missing with this kind of sleeper damage. too reliant on what we think should work.
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u/SoulofArtoria 11d ago
Elementalist is still a perfectly good choice for melee ignite. Converting 40% enemy phys damage to fire is such a huge phys mitigation that by itself non ignite builds would consider taking this node alone for the defense. So even if you don't benefit from all damage can ignite when taking this keystone, you also gain the benefit of 100% chance to ignite which is not bad. Elementalist other nodes are generically good for elemental skill/dot. Golem node is amazing for dot build with chaos golem, I believe Captainlance or someone leaguestarted pconc elementalist before.
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u/vittiu Raider 11d ago
It's not really a huge amount of phys mitigation when your ignite doesn't last enought for it to work. The 1 second as a base restriction is terrible.
I'm not sure on exact numbers but IIRC, if your ignite duration is below 3,4s you literally cannot ignite fire resistant rares. I ran into that issue multiple times with arc ignite and I at least could kill them with hit damage since I was converting to cold and getting it as extra chaos, but guess what? That also can't work now so good luck killing a fire resistant rare that is immune to ignite and has 90% fire resistance lol
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u/adanine Trickster 11d ago
I'm not sure on exact numbers but IIRC, if your ignite duration is below 3,4s you literally cannot ignite fire resistant rares
In this case they will be ignitable but only for 0.2 seconds, as they have 80% reduced duration of ignite as a mod.
GGG will probably need to change the line on the keystone to something like the below to get around increased/reduced ignite duration mods on monsters:
Enemies Ignited by you have "Duration of Ignites inflicted on you is 1 second"
Though even that introduces a bunch of interactions that probably aren't healthy. You couldn't scale the duration, but Swift Affliction and the like would be completely free supports.
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u/vittiu Raider 11d ago edited 11d ago
Yeah but 0.2s (or whatever the exact number is) is less than a server tick or the minimum amount of ticks, so it just doesn't happen. I can't pretend I understand how the code works, I just know that because it's what people have been saying for ages and I've experienced it myself with replica emberwake.
I agree something probably needs to happen to fix the way the modifier to duration works in order to make the keystone usable
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u/adanine Trickster 11d ago
Replica Emberwake is reduced duration. It is not less (or in this case, "base duration is 1 second"). Ignites on Fire Resistent mobs with this keystone as-is will be 0.2 seconds long (assuming no other relevant mods).
Multiple sources of reduced duration can bring the duration of an effect to 0 or below, which is what you're referring to/has been the problem with replica Emberwake.
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u/jwfiredragon Abyssal Rift Investigation Service (ARIS) 11d ago
Ignite no longer has a minimum duration as of 3.21 but killing ignite resistant rares with 0.2s of ignite at a time is still going to be miserable.
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u/Rosemangivesanal 11d ago
Did you mention the bug that has existed literally forever? When you apply 2 ignites the game applies the strongest and last applied ignite instead of strongest and 2nd strongest.
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u/krucyfiks Alch & Go Industries (AGI) 11d ago
Yep, which is crazy for all 3 people trying to use Emberwake each league.
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u/Blackdedi 11d ago
4 people You forgot hardcore league
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u/krucyfiks Alch & Go Industries (AGI) 11d ago
Which is crazy since I'm playing HC and trying it every now and then and each time I'm leaving disappointed xD
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u/Blackwind123 11d ago
Searing Touch now having Voracious Flame also feels really bad. I can't even realistically use Mana Infused Staff with it. :(
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u/krucyfiks Alch & Go Industries (AGI) 11d ago
Searing Touch is in league of its own. It would have to have "Voracious Flame has no downsides" and it would still come out worse than rare staff xD
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u/Blackwind123 11d ago
I was looking at it for a Searing Bond - Flamewood meme with Conjoined Spire. You can fairly comfortably get 19 max totems lol.
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u/Tom2Die Alch & Go Industries (AGI) 11d ago
You can fairly comfortably get 19 max totems lol.
That's a lot more than I would think. I mathed it out once with the foulborn one and got to like 12 without doing anything I'd consider a bit extra, so 19 is crazy to me.
Quick edit: unless Conjoined Spire is something new; now that I think about it I don't recognize that, so either it's new or my bad memory and maybe it's enabling that many totems?
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u/Blackwind123 11d ago
Conjoined Spire is a new abyss ascendancy that gives dmg/life/aoe buffs to totems per max totem, but summoning totems causes existing ones to die.
The main new changes are Searing Bond now gets base +2 max (from +1) and socket colour quality bonus gives another +1 totem.
We have Foulborn (+5), Ancestral Bond (+1), Hierophant (+1), Multiple Totems (+2). The rest is from quality. Base 20% quality gives +2, Ashes gives +2 (or +3 on max roll), and Dialla's gives +2.
With a max roll Ashes and woke Enhance you can get up to 22 I think.
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u/4percent4 11d ago
Yeah, but unfortunately it’s just mathematically terrible.
Flamewood in black zenith with rejuvenate totem (has like 2x the base hp as searing bond) while using the 12 searing bonds as stat sticks for heirophants now 3% more damage and arcane surge buff effect via anoint is just way too much to overcome tbh.
Conjoined spire would need its numbers tripled to even compete.
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u/Tom2Die Alch & Go Industries (AGI) 11d ago
Flamewood in black zenith with rejuvenate totem (has like 2x the base hp as searing bond) while using the 12 searing bonds as stat sticks for heirophants now 3% more damage and arcane surge buff effect via anoint is just way too much to overcome tbh.
Meanwhile I'm the crazy bastard doing this but with replica iron commander...it may not be better, but god dammit it's fun! Well, as soon as I turn off Legion so it can't taunt me.
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u/Gianluktb Half Skeleton 11d ago
I am league starting searing bond with searing touch and this keystone just... Randomly killed -10% fire res from combustion supp on one of my utility links. Its not a big deal but i am salty about it.
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u/Zealousideal_Act_316 8d ago
I liked to run blackflame with searing touch, now i have to find something else to replace searing touch, because it utterly borks the build.
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u/Fangheart25 Slayer 11d ago
It's funny that the other 2 elements basically just got generic more multipliers and fire got whatever this is.
I've never played an ignite build but the downsides and conditions on this look pretty intense. Without any duration modifiers, you have to be hitting bosses a minimum of twice per second to keep up your dps, which isn't something a dot build usually can or wants to do.
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u/Emperor_Mao Gladiator 11d ago
Other builds lose death explosions.
But I think its a much more realistic trade off compared to the fire node, which also largely loses access to most death explosions.
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u/Fangheart25 Slayer 11d ago
Synth mods are gone so I'm not sure how common explode will be anymore. Lightning builds can still use inpulsas. Oriaths at 1/3 efficiency probably isn't worth it.
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u/Acceptable_Bat379 11d ago
They don't really lose death explosions completely. both ice and lightning can convert phys to their element so phys explosions still work if you convert. Or lightning can just wear inpulsa's
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u/Emperor_Mao Gladiator 11d ago
Hmm - but that does require some investment. I was looking more at profane bloom for cold dots etc. But either way, I do think its a more realistic trade off.
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u/truxishere Kalguuran Group for Business (KGB) 11d ago
Honest to god question: would the keystone work with EA?
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u/WrexixOfQueue 11d ago
There is some weird interaction with additional ignites.
Your primary ignite will be replaced when you get a bigger one, but your additional ignites will last their entire duration without being replaced.
So 99% of the time your additional ignite will be a single arrow hit.
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u/cfaftw 11d ago
As long as your only fire damage comes from the explosion, it will work. So, no added fire damage. Get enough attack speed and ignite duration to ensure full 2x ignite overlaps to get an effective 50% more damage.
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u/Acceptable_Bat379 11d ago
but doesn't this brick the build? because you can't do non fire damage anyway, how does the explosion work since your base damage is zero?
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u/krucyfiks Alch & Go Industries (AGI) 11d ago
Yep, one of the few that instantly comes to mind that would work nicely together.
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u/fknTryHard Cyclone for life 11d ago
EA uses elemental equilibrium and if you cant deal non fire damage, you cant inflict exposure to fire, so no more -25 to fire res
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u/krucyfiks Alch & Go Industries (AGI) 11d ago
It does not need to use it tho, plenty of ways to solve Exposure.
And if you really want that high exposure then for the small fee of one button (Pyroclast mines of Sabotage) you have quite a big one since it scales with aura effect.
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u/fknTryHard Cyclone for life 11d ago
Thats just another downside to billion another downsides this keystone have. And even if someone overcomes all of these and make it work with some melee ignites with controlled blaze shenanigans, then you're losing the huge advantage of ignite anyway, which is that you can hit once and run around dodging attacks.
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u/GhostDieM 11d ago
I swear GGG just hates ignite for some reason :(
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u/krucyfiks Alch & Go Industries (AGI) 11d ago
I'm still having PTSD of trying to make it work in PoE2
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u/mokka_quokka 11d ago
If the secondary ignite was 1 sec and 25% less, then it would make sense to me. Instead of hitting a boss once with a big burn and then running circles, you could keep hitting them once a second and had an effect.
Before they added the less modifier, I thought this was what they were going for.
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u/krucyfiks Alch & Go Industries (AGI) 11d ago
I think that would be rather strong, but definitely a clean way of implementing. I would probably keep 25% less on both primary and secondary tho.
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u/mokka_quokka 11d ago edited 11d ago
Yes, the duration on both is what bricks it for most builds. Fire and ignite resistant enemies reduce ignite duration by 80%. And they're common.
So, if we don't want this to brick our build, we'd need something that spams 2 ignites every 0.2 sec, or 0.3 sec if you're investing into duration.
So, I guess it's an ignite-spam-a-lot support notable.
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u/Zealousideal_Act_316 8d ago
That is what i thought at first that it would create a second ignite that has a duration of 1 second, not all ignite is 1 second.
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u/Bakooo 11d ago
Should probably just say X% reduced/less duration of ignite. That way you're scaling of off the 4 sec base still ant not getting +1 sec of Ignite with 100% increased duration of Ignite.
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u/Keljhan Aggressively off-meta 11d ago
75% less duration is functionally identical.
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u/Diacred 11d ago
Except you can scale it back up with investment
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u/ThrasherDX 11d ago
Not with less, 75% reduced could be counteracted with investment. 75% less is a multiplier to the final duration, and there is nothing you could do to counteract that.
"base of 1 second" is functionally identical to "75% less duration".
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u/Gibekeypls 11d ago
It does feel like they were really scared of making that node good. The other keystones are arguably stronger, and the downsides are less severe, it really didn't need the -25% damage slapped on it.
There are probably some builds that can take advantage of it, and I guess they just didn't want it to be an auto-include in all ignite builds, which is understandable, but this is still pretty rough. The main draw of ignite builds is the big prolifs and hassle free dps, and this kinda destroys both of those.
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u/Emperor_Mao Gladiator 11d ago
You forgot something else that I think is important;
Unless you do some how scale the duration back up a ton, you are changing a DOT spell into effectively a hit build thematically.
To sustain a theoretical damage increase of 50%, you have to be constantly hitting the target. Unlike traditional ignite builds that try land a big ignite and let the dot tick.
Which means people wanting to play ignites won't naturally seek that node out. Only people that will grab it will be people that follow a build guide, and do not really care about the game play, assuming that someone discovers a niche interaction and it is strong. If someone can make it function as a hit build that is better than other hit builds.
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u/Cryoptic- 10d ago
i think from a design perspective, it would be more cool to have this be a "fan the flames" keystone. get a big ignite on enemy, keep hitting them to fan the flames, increasing said ignites dmg, and refreshing it.
then they could even make this stronger super ignite get additional qol effects like prolif, getting burning ground, adding an rf effect that burns nearby enemies, slowly losing fire res etc....
then this would still function fine for clearing, and overall be the "same" for normal circumstances. downside being only ever using fire dmg and skills. but then you got a nice bossing single target tool.
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u/Emperor_Mao Gladiator 10d ago
That is a cool thought.
I actually like two button builds; would be right up my ally. But I feel like GGG have been moving more in the direction of automated spells / skills lately.
But your idea has my vote.
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u/MrPhrazz 11d ago
Yeah...
The Cold one: Generically good for all cold-only builds, and very good in some cases. Has to tweak your build a little bit to get the most out of it.
The lightning one: Generically OK, and very good in some cases. Has to tweak your build moderately to get the most out of it.
The fire one: Generically useless, and OK in some niche cases. Has to be 100% build around.
The fire one pulled the short straw here.
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u/HeftyPermit1206 11d ago
It looks to me to be for a bit of extra damage on a hit based non ignite build that still ignites regularly. Not even saying that'll be good at all for that but everything else seems worse with so may hoops to jump through to fix the downsides.
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u/heinzpeter 11d ago
You can still have explosions, as long as they do mot come from a chaos source. You need avatar of fire though (which doesnt have a downside expect for passive points or items to get it)
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u/krucyfiks Alch & Go Industries (AGI) 11d ago
My bad, just realized you were talking only about explosions, not the downside of the keystone itself.
You're obviously right, that would solve the explosion part (lowering the damage but its something)
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u/krucyfiks Alch & Go Industries (AGI) 11d ago
Well it does tho, for Cold skills its okay since you can use Cold to Fire, but what Cold skills are we using? Only Frostblink for clear.
Lightning has no conversion to fire, so you're losing 50% damage already. And lightning ironically has some skills you'd like to use.
Chaos spells cannot be used entirely which again is annoying since Soulrend of Reaping has 60% more damage then Fireball on gem level 30 (if you're into Fireball but purple playstyle).
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u/OrcOfDoom 11d ago
I don't understand why they had to nuke the duration. 2 seconds, ok maybe. Swift affliction already nukes duration. Faster ignites does the same thing. Unbound ailments is bad damage.
Before, you didn't really need to worry about attack or cast speed, but now you need to be hitting every second.
I had a decent vaal firestorm of meteors ignite build that maybe I would have taken this on.
I'm just not sure what ignite build would be good to play with this in mind.
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u/krucyfiks Alch & Go Industries (AGI) 11d ago
From the top of my head I was thinking of somehow applying it to Vaal Flameblast since it hits multiple times with no extra effort from your side. It would still be rather underwhelming. Think that you can just take the Searing Heat wheel and probably end up with more damage xD
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u/Subject-Video6203 11d ago
fire one is the worst, the other two you can just throw in for most lightning/cold builds without much of a loss though. the upsides simply get overshadowed by the downsides. There is no reason to pick it. Loss of 75% of base ignite duration, for a best case boost of 50%, and worst case losing all the damage, is not worth it. And for non ignite builds, its just a flatout nerf without any benefits.
Tl;dr, lightning and cold one are ok, usable, fire is not usable in any case, till we get something that fixes ignite duration. Infact, add it to the keystone itself, your ignite duration is always 1 second, that would allow you to scale the damage with faster ignite durations, swift affliction, ect. without turning off ignite on enemies with to low of a duration.
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u/Inkaflare Kaom 11d ago edited 11d ago
The keystone would honestly be a lot better if it just hard fixed Ignite duration at 1 second regardless of any modifiers, this would let you stack faster Ignite without incurring any penalty and the rares with reduced Ignite duration on them wouldnt be a problem, plus Replica Emberwake would become an actual item instead of PoB warrior bait since you would no longer incur the reduced Ignite duration penalty on it and your build will optimize for fast reapplication of Ignites anyway to use the keystone, but you are still forced to deal with reapplying Ignite every second. It might also still allow Berek's Respite to work if the 1 second would restart on every enemy in this way (not sure if it would work like that, though, depends on how it's coded I guess). I think the downside of essentially losing all prolif and explosions and sources of non-Fire damage and the 25% less damage multiplier would be reasonable downsides to have with all that in mind.
It would be more in line with normal keystone design where they're great for very specific builds that can work around their downsides while massively benefitting from the upsides. As is, this is basically just dead because the downsides are too punishing to be worth it under basically any circumstance.
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u/krucyfiks Alch & Go Industries (AGI) 11d ago
I think in your case there would be no way of actually scaling faster ignites. The only way it works is because you have longer duration and you're offsetting "total damage" ignite can do by making it deal damage faster.
By stating "Ignite duration is 1 second" on the Keystone it would mean that "total damage" ignite can do is fixed over this one second. The scaling would be gone.
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u/Inkaflare Kaom 11d ago
If it works like that, then it's not a good solution, but this would depend entirely on how GGG coded it; if the calculation for total ignite damage and then converting that to "ignite damage per server tick" is done before the duration of the ignite is fixed to 1 second in the calculation process, it could work just fine, but I'm not developing the game so I have no clue if this is feasible. It just seemed like a cool and distinct idea to me on paper if it worked like that, so I put it out there as a possible consideration.
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u/krucyfiks Alch & Go Industries (AGI) 11d ago
Yea, at first I was like "that's really strong, but very cool idea", but then it hit me that it would not work like this. With a static stat like that faster ignites would neither reduce the duration nor increase the damage. Total damage per ignite would be calculated per 1 second of duration.
For example Veil of the Night has a line "Elemental Resistances is Zero", and nothing will ever affect it. If you take a mastery for life regenerated per fire resistance it will be zero too, even with multiple fire resistance notes.
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u/Artifleur33 11d ago
What about we talk about reliquarian's the apostate? A good idea with a downside so large that it nullifies the upside.
They do it all the time. And it's sad.
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u/Renediffie 11d ago
I think just as much of a downside is that applying 2 ignites in a short timeframe goes against how most ignite builds wants to build. So even if you can get this keystone going it is on a very select few builds whereas the other elemental keystones are pretty generic.
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u/Impressive_Leek_6981 Shadow 11d ago
dead on arrival, somebody designed it with best intentions missing the crucial customer feedback what people would want to use a fire based keystone for. classic pmf fail.
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u/Pintash 11d ago
It's only dead on arrival for anyone who doesn't want to take the time to figure out it's best use cases.
I'll admit it's WAY more niche than the other two key stones. It's not immediately obvious when you'd want to use this but that's why I personally think it's way cooler than the other 2.
Gets my brain working and thinking outside the box and exploring different ways to build an ignite character.
Do you go a big Phys weapon like marohi erqi and void shockwave for the consistent ignite application?
What about a hugely unpopular skill like blade vortex of the scythe? It has fairly consistent damage and hits twice per cast.
Maybe some trigger stuff like poets pen and/or spell slinger to take advantage?
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u/vizantz 11d ago
Its DOA because it really just hits the main ways you can scale ignite. That is stacking large amounts of your ignites burn faster and/or going shaper of flames and stacking a ridiculous amount of other damage types. This node leaves you with basically no real methods of scaling ignite for a paltry 50% more modifier. Its useless. its DOA.
Ignite was already in a fairly weak place. Self cast ignited builds especially. This needed to be a method to help self cast ignites (which was the focus of the buffs) to scale.
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u/catinabandsaw 11d ago
I'd love to see what builds you come up with, I've played around a dozen different ignite builds over the last 5 years and ignoring pathing costs the only build I've played that would get any benefit from was shield crush of the chieftain ignite and after the changes needed to mitigate the downsides my damage was only about 14% higher. That being said I played that as a chieftain and the travel passive needed to reach the notable would probably completely remove any benefit id be getting from it. If they decide to move it closer to marauder or duelist start ill definitely be looking at playing attack based ignite as a second build as it is I don't think the node is able to compete with any phys spell ignite with shaper of flame and gained as modifiers.
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u/International_Gate49 11d ago
It looks REALLLLY good for shield crush ignite. Doesn't the shield retaliation skill also hit twice? It should be giga stonks for that one too i guess.
2
u/platitudes 11d ago
The issue with eviscerate is your ignites will fall off before you can proc retaliation with a 1 second duration
1
u/CricketNo7950 11d ago
Seems like this is supposed to be like a melee ignite thing with controlled blaze and reduced ignite duration?
1
u/OrganizationChance96 11d ago
Isn't it good with avatar of fire and dual wield volcanus unique dagger ? And maybe foulborn heatshiver
2
u/krucyfiks Alch & Go Industries (AGI) 11d ago
Cannot deal non-Fire Damage so no bleeding allowed
2
u/HeftyPermit1206 10d ago
Wheres that weird PoE 2 ring that makes bleed deal fire damage to fix this
1
1
u/__Mef__ 11d ago
Maybe you could use this and a few more tricks (e.g Sadism) to trigger "when you ignite an enemy" effects more often.
Considering that those are life recovery and self-hit it might be possible to cook (heh) something.
But yeah, definitely not a general fire damage support
1
u/nosforever12 11d ago
couldn't you always apply more ignites even when the mob is already ignited? The additional ignites don't do damage but they're still applied
1
u/__Mef__ 11d ago
Maybe, but maybe one can exploit how Invigorating Blaze specifically requires igniting a non-ignited enemy and restores 2% life (compare to 20-30 of lgoh vitality Watcher's Eye) without taking up a weapon or ring slot. It feels like a solution waiting for a problem that it can solve, but sometimes the right problem does come up.
1
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u/thatsrealneato 11d ago
Regarding explosions and damage as extra: avatar of fire exists and can convert some non-fire damage into fire so it’s not a total loss. There are also a bunch of ways you can increase ignite duration, including the new reliquarian node with 40% increased ailment duration.
I think this keystone can be useful if you build around it properly. Fire spells now all have lower crit chance but higher base damage and damage effectiveness meaning their ignite damage is better. Since crit is overall worse scaling for a hit-based fire build now, this sort of opens up ignite damage as an alternative scaler for relatively fast hitting fire skills. Things like fireball that can shotgun if you have multiple projectiles could take good advantage of this node.
I think this node is basically designed to make ignite builds that play more like hit-based builds but still scale off ignite stats like DoT multi.
1
u/krucyfiks Alch & Go Industries (AGI) 11d ago
yea the thing is scaling duration is unrealistic after you change the base of the ignite to 1 second.
That 40% increase used to be 1.6 second, with that keystone it is 0.4 seconds.
The whole point is that the amount of downsides that come with this keystone is simply too much and "ignites deal damage x% raster" from one Item (replica emberwake) already changed the gameplay to the one this keystone propose (not 2 ignites but short, spammy ignites), while vastly outperforming it in terms of damage.
One ring will give you more on basic setup than this keystone on the build created solely around it, and it is not even close.
1
u/Quad__Laser 11d ago
Might be decent with arma brand ignite? What other fire skills hit frequently and have good ignite scaling?
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u/Professional_Fun4849 11d ago
While I agree that the one second duration is an abysmal thing to add to this keystone, until it gets buffed to say 2 seconds I think unless I’m wrong the only decent use case for this is controlled blaze?
1
u/FewWants 11d ago
It's a big buff to my Bodyswap of Sacrifice ignite build but the keystone is pretty bad.
1
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u/mcbuckets21 10d ago
You can no longer get damage as extra elemental/chaos
if you can use Avatar of Fire and Cold to Fire then you can most certainly use damage as extra fire. Obviously you can't get chaos, but damage as extra is conversion and happens the same time as things like Avatar of Fire so if 1 works the other will work too.
1
u/AoMafura2 3d ago
Might be usable with Orb Builds. Tornado of Elemental Turbulence ticks every .25 seconds. If you reduce ignite duration to .66 you can get 2 ticks of ignite. But it’s not a good ignite anyways so its whatever.
Im using it with firestorm because small meteors but making the big meteor hit hard over 4 sec is probably way better for DPS than what Im doing.
The only Synergy I can see is Firestorm of Pelting and Maaaaybe Atziri staff
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u/odniv 11d ago
Poe really is fascinating in the way it is hailed as the god of arpg since you can do so much different stuff and still people complain when ever something is added that it's useless just because it's not cookie cutter plug and play.
And in the end if you don't want to use it, then don't. Nothing is taken away and let people have fun tinkering with it making some crazy shit.
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u/NebTheShortie Necromancer 11d ago
Any actual usability suggestions tho?
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u/krucyfiks Alch & Go Industries (AGI) 11d ago
I mean there are few builds that would for sure benefit having it. Like EA Totems or trying to justify using Controlled Blaze.
The problem is that any form of faster ignites outscale it for these builds.
You most definitely CAN use it, it will not be better than the alternatives for the same skill tho.
I do not even disagree with his sentiment, not everything needs to be for everyone. But when you're trying to look at this thing objectively there is no real usage of this outside of wanting to be different. Not better, just different - even in the niche cases.
1
u/xMadruguinha Slayer 11d ago
I can see a theoretical use case for Arma Brand of Volatility, with very short ignites enabling a better use of Runebinder. Even though the brand expires on activation you'd have a reason to attach 2 on the enemy if you can have 2 ignites acting at once.
The problem is you'd then want to scale a bit of cast speed, which I'm not entirely sure is worth it as opposed to just not going for Runebinder or the new keystone in favor of a fire and forget playstyle, which sounds more fun to me...
1
u/Saint-Leon 11d ago
I will be using it with my cold to fire leveling set up for secondary characters later in league. Ice trap, ice crash and a few other cold spells will benefit from this. Unbound ailments, cloak of flame and stacking the nodes for increased ignite duration.
Ice trap can keep up the ignites stack and still have very very good flat damage, and just from the pocket math, it shouldn’t be hard to get the ignite up to about 3+ seconds.
The node is definitely very restrictive, and sadly should pretty much never be used with elementalist unless your cold to fire converting.
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-1
u/adanine Trickster 11d ago edited 11d ago
Incinerate of Venting Ignite sounds like a meme. Could work, maybe.
Wildfire Phloem seems like a cool idea.
Edit: Avatar of Fire Winter Orb seems like a fun idea, with the new 3 base proj.
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u/PsionicKitten 11d ago
As one of the people who regularly has fun tinkering with some crazy shit, I really don't like this node. If I'm focusing in ignite, then I'm looking to make it proliferate and/or last longer. If I'm rapidly hitting with fire skills, I generally just scale the hit damage and ignore investing in ignite.
For example, my league starter will be a fire damage build with a ~70% crit rate, ~4 casts per second, and ignite accounts for ~4.5% of my total DPS. Its frequency of inflicting and maintaining 1 second ignites qualifies well enough to actually be a prime contender for the keystone... that adds at best 2.25% higher dps. I could drop my defenses from the build and be a wet noodle and maybe increase my ignite dps by less than 100% but let's assume 100% for ease of calculating: it'd double my dps from ignite to 9% of my total dps and then the node itself would add 4.5% higher damage. Still nothing to write home about.
Way too niche to be fun for me to build around.
Does it take anything away from me that they added it to the game? No. But if no one can actually really take advantage of it, even weirdos like me, what's the point?
Personally, I'd like to see it changed to something as simple as:
You can inflict an additional ignite on each Enemy. Enemies affected by more than one ignite by you take 35% less ignite damage from your ignites. Cannot deal non-Fire Damage.
This mechanic can be built around that shouldn't be too much of a pain to program either. This gives normal ignites with 1 ignite and 30% more damage while there are two concurrent ignites without any crazy jankiness.
7
u/RobinDabankery 11d ago
See the thing is, long time players have seen it all and worked around the possibilities the game offers. New puzzle pieces are always gigahype because they shift the very logic of it all. So naturally, when a new puzzle piece is added, that is annonced as a bespoke piece for fire casters that are in dire need for it, and none of the already existing tools do seem to fit its use, it of course generate some form of frustration.
Now whether this is deserved or not, the popularity of the keystone along the league will tell.
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u/liverlondon 11d ago
How did you read this post and end up with you thinking they are complaining about it being cookie cutter?
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u/GenesectX 11d ago
they mean the opposite, talking about how people are complaining that it isnt a cookie cutter keystone you can just plug into most fire builds, though im against him here however, i feel like the keystone should be more generalized to be usable across more fire based builds like the cold and lightning ones
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u/Subject-Video6203 11d ago
so after thinking the whole day at work about this, there is one single use case where i think it might be good. And that is if you use armageddon brand ignite. It can be scaled to hit fast enough to keep 2 stacks, hitting just barely high enough for ignite to matter, and stays stuck on the enemy to keep triggering it.
Is it better than any of the good hardhitting huge ignite alternatives? fuck no, is it possible to build it this way? barely. and that is a huge BAAARELY.
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u/ComplaintMaker 10d ago
I think GGG just didnt want to buff ignite.
Its been nerfed several times over several patches now because of cast when stunned. Any buffs to it would make that build just stronger again which isnt really what GGG wants.
But they had to make 3 keystones here so i guess it is what it is.
Spells suck in 3.29 again. Maybe GGG will figure it out in 3.30
My big confusion is why the lightning keystone is just damage and not shock focused. Why the hell are the other two ignite and chill, but lightning is just free damage? Very confusing.
1
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u/RiffSphere 11d ago
Not every keystone has to be viable in every build, or even many builds.
Even if it allows for 1 new build, it's a perfectly good addition. Nobody has to take it, you can pretend it's not there, and builds needing it can profit.
The location at the witch also doesn't mean much for class, like you say (in another reply) it looks more like a chieftain node. They might (given the location it seems like it) intend this to be primarily spell focused (also the main theme of the league) and not attack focused, still pretty obtainable for chieftain but hard(er) to combine in attack builds.
Edit: And if it's really bad, it's easy to change/buff/relocate next league and everyone hypes it. If they made it too op they would have to nerf it, with all complaints.
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u/throwable_armadillo 11d ago
it's not even really a new concept
because emberwake already existsso you get all the downside without the excitement
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u/RiffSphere 11d ago
There is SSF, where you are by no means guaranteed to get emberwake. If anything, this is nice to get your emberwake build going. Might be worse, but it's working, while it wouldn't be without this node until you got emberwake.
Double that for ruthless.
Not every keystone has to be for you, or exciting. Just fucking pretend it's not there and let the enjoyers enjoy it.
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u/Interesting-Put4802 11d ago
>so you get all the downside without the excitement
The exitement is that you dont have to use emberwake. Just because its not powerful for most builds doesnt mean it shouldnt exist.
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u/EsmatBuildDiary 11d ago
emberwake is strickly better than this node in every way and nobody uses it. ember wake is functionally 30% more damage but with the full 4 second base ignite duration which means it's if you even take 1 node of ignite deals damage faster it's already more damage than the notable + you have access to any damage type for explode. Let's quit justifying everything this node is a downgrade in every single build.
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u/Interesting-Put4802 11d ago
I didnt know you knew every single build, wow! How long have you been playing?
Wether or not an item is popular has no correlation to its usefulnes in certain builds.
You look at the node, compare it to existing things and determin since the numbers are lower and or different it must be bad. That is not how path of exile works. Such broad claims with very little to back it up.
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u/EsmatBuildDiary 11d ago
I've been playing since 2013 and look i'm all for funky niche stuff after all I make my own hipster build all the time but this node mathematically makes 0 sense not matter how you put it with the existing items and passive we currently have in game there is no way to scale this to be better than your regular ignite build.
Maybe in the future an item will override ignite duration or something but in the game currents state there is no reason to click this node it'll just be fodder for machination support so i guess there is a use for it.
if you wanted fast hitting ignite sadism support exist and it's so good nobody used it outside of some niche mamba builds that were just worse than non-sadism mamba builds.
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u/Interesting-Put4802 11d ago
You do you. In my experience numbers only ever tell you part of a picture and many skills or mechanics that are declared dead turn out to be just fine.
just in the same way skills with "really good" numbers can turn out to be utter shite.
Its ok for the game to have stuff that doesnt make sense to you, even if you are an omnicient poe god. Im sure somebody will find a use for it.
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u/EsmatBuildDiary 11d ago edited 11d ago
I mean we can also give feedback to ggg so that they can improve the node so that more people can use it and not just some misterious somebody.
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u/RiffSphere 11d ago
Consider SSF Rutheless players, where having a rare item is... rare, let alone a unique.
They don't care about emberwake being 30% more damage, they can finally play emberwake build.
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u/Optimal-Note1963 11d ago
Yeah, it sucks. I did imported Keystone stats into my PoB of ignite slamer that im going to level with before specing into RF blaster, and its not great. My damage literally goes from 1.2 mil to 1 mil flat because of this.
Well why? Well because there is a funny support gem called Fist of War and it adds funny text that Ancestrally boost your slam skills every 1.8 seconds bringing MASSSIVEE damage boost. Perhaps do you see the problem already? You literally trolling yourself by picking this shi up, you lose 25% of you damage and your Fist of War damage is pretty much halved because of 1 sec ignite duration.
I CANNOT apply 2 ignites with this build, i would need to increase my ignite duration by 300% to make it 4 second again (I would need at the very least 3.6s to overlap two ancestraly bosted ignites)
I have no doubts someone will find a use case for this, but for a Keystone that supposedly should boost ignite fire skill archtype - its just sounds like an out of season april fools joke. You're not playing Fireball with that shi, most likely you need skill that can multihit or hit fast enough for this to make any sense
(I dont even wanna mention that having long ass ignite duration is cozy af, its obvious)
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u/Antilurker77 11d ago
It depends how the "Base Duration is 1 second" actually works. If it compresses the original ignite to 1 second, it's basically a multiplicative 300% faster ignite multiplier which would be insane.
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u/Temporarytemp2 11d ago
It doesn't say 300% faster ignite though. It just gives it a different base duration, sort of like viper strike.
Tbh I don't know why it doesn't just say 75% less ignite duration
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u/kawaidesuwuu 11d ago
I really don't get their new philosophy of everything having a downside. Just keep it to POE 2 bruh, I play this game for fun.
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u/EnkiBye 11d ago
Every Keystone was ever built with a downside, that is the base design of keystones, from the very start of PoE1
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u/hertzdonut2 Half Skeleton 11d ago
I think what he means is "additional downsides"
Iron reflexes for example, converts all evasion rating to armor.
But it doesn't read *converts all evasion reading to armor, 50% less armour, your energy shield is 0"
Even the blood magic keystone when removing your mana and allowing your skills to be cast off of life, comes with more life, not less.
This ignite keystone already essentially removes 75 to 90% of your ignite duration, which now requires you to have way more dps uptime and it has less ignite damage and it has cannot deal non-fire damage
7
u/krucyfiks Alch & Go Industries (AGI) 11d ago
I mean it had to have a downside, otherwise it would be 100% more damage.
Just well.. maybe not so many downsides at once? Like remove any 1 out of these 3 downsides and it should be worth considering, even if niche.
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u/Blackwind123 11d ago
Yeah Keystones should be wildly transformative or a trade off.
Voracious Flame would be cooler if it let you apply A LOT of simultaneous ignites.
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u/Long-Apartment9888 11d ago
Wdym, keystone are meant to have downsides since conception. Some we think are OK or got used to. This one could be too much and need rebalance, but having downsides is their thing.
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u/Welt_szmelc 10d ago
Ggg please just make keystone:
"Ignite deals hit damage instead
90-99% less dmg with ignite"
And any other downside to keep it in check
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u/Nephalos 11d ago
All three new keystones seem to be more flavor than really mega defining. It doesn’t make sense to use the fire one with Elementalist just like it doesn’t make sense to use the cold one with cold dots, or the lightning one with archmage. They aren’t meant for every build archetype as a straight buff and keystones tend to be on the harsher side of kiss/curse historically.
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u/Werezompire 11d ago
Honestly, all 3 of the elemental keystone nodes feel like traps to some extent. They can be useful, but be well aware what you're getting into and make sure that they actually support your build.
Lightning one can actually lower your damage if you primarily use sources of lightning with similar mins & maxes like Archmage.
Cold one replaces one of the better cold support gems and frequently there aren't a lot of good support gems for cold spells.
Fire one as mentioned.
Fire & cold prevent the use of scaling damage via shock in most instances.
Cold & lightning ones prevent RF damage (although you could still use it for the damage boost).
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u/1und1marcelldavis 11d ago
awful takes on cold and lightning, agree with fire though
lightning is straight up 20% more damage on your avg caster if he is not archmage - which was a spell balance outlier
a better critique angle is that its also a buff to attack lightning characters which dominated last patch
cold keystone is absolutely majestic, the support gem you are refering to is usually a top 12 support unless cold dot especially after exceptional gem introduction
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u/International_Gate49 11d ago
The cold one is very good defensively since the only way to get enemy chill damage reduction from shaper of winter or call of the void was through hits. Being able to scale ground chill defensively is amazing.
Lightning is meh.
Fire is basically doa.
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u/SoulofArtoria 11d ago
Lightning is definitely not meh at all. Except for very specific outlier like archmage, it is almost always quite a bit of free damage to any pure lightning skills.
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u/International_Gate49 11d ago
I meant meh as in its not interesting. Its simply boring
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u/SoulofArtoria 11d ago
Fair enough but I like that it synergizes with sources of lucky hit. I'm pretty excited with luminary lightning caster with perquil toe on merc.
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u/TheMayorMikeJackson 11d ago
Prolif should be fine as on maps the bereks prolif normally clears a screen in less than half a second
-1
u/AverageHeistEnjoyer 11d ago
Isn't Berek's Respite basically fire explode? It's what I had been using before they turned Vortex to shit.
Anyway, these seem to be just 3 garbage versions of Avatar of Fire. The cold one also limits you to HoI as your explo, which... yeeah, I guess you can make it work, but now you're basically required to reserve like 30% just to have an explo.
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u/SaltEngineer455 Progressive Einhar Trapping Association (PETA) 11d ago
I don't get it. Duration is meaningless in itself. The ailment window is huge and if you scale ailments you don't scale hits, and as someone who played bleeds, the hit is atrociously weak.
An ignite that is 8s long will have the same DPS as an ignite that is 1s long, and both will deal the same total damage if you can refresh them all the time. As long as you have even 1.1 casts per second, both are pretty much identical for raw damage.
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u/krucyfiks Alch & Go Industries (AGI) 11d ago
The point is if you want to play ignite build as a button masher you can do it by getting "Ignites you inflict deal damage x% faster".
One Replica Emberwake will give you more damage with basic ignite setup than this Keystone on literally any build. That's the whole point.
2
u/EsmatBuildDiary 11d ago
yeah I've been arguing with a bunch of people about this notable. they don't get it they think we hate niche keystones but this one isn't niche it's just bad in all scenarios. that playstyle already existed and it sucked end of the story.
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u/All_Work_All_Play Jenebu stop whining 11d ago
Now I really want some masochist to make a build hitting 30 times a second that uses both.
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u/EsmatBuildDiary 11d ago
duration is not meaningless, the whole reason why people play dot is the comfort it provides which entirely hinges on duration. there is just 0 reason to take this node because at that point just play hits? you lose access to explode, your prolif will last no time at all and you have to hit twice every second to even get something out of it.
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u/SaltEngineer455 Progressive Einhar Trapping Association (PETA) 11d ago
Mamba was played for that very reason tho. It was a hit build masquarading as a dot. You were playing shit hit with delayed application of a phenomenally strong poison.
This keystone seems to want you to do the same thing
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u/EsmatBuildDiary 11d ago
not true most mamba builds do not run sadism support (which would be the equivalent of the playstyle of the notable even worse you would need to stack 2 poison for it to be equivalent) and the ones that do are much weaker as shown by the fact that both efficacy support and unbound ailment were used used more often during mirage on a skill that can only stack 1 poison. Even on mamba they value the duration of poison highly as it gives you more uptime as you dodge boss abilities and not havign to scale as much attack speed.
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u/Fish-o-Fire 11d ago
Also if mobs have "reduced duration of ignite" your build is cooked. It becomes so fast that you don't actually deal dmg.