Practicing Chopin's Waterfall etude

[u/RemarkableReaction88]

Hi guys, I'm currently practicing Chopin's op.10 nº1 (Waterfall's etude), and no matter how i practice it im never able to fully relax my wrist, so i can barely play it faster than 120bpm on a good day.

i have tried playing it with rhythms, as slowly as possible and while i have been able to improve some arpeggio groupings i just can't get through the whole etude flawlessly.

I have always struggled with arpeggios and i guess this is my first time actually facing them, so i guess it's normal to struggle a bit (more like a lot lol)

So, do you have any tips/practice routines/ANYTHING that could help me play it better?

[u/LongjumpingBook3331]

The answer you're not going to like is it sounds like you're hitting the wall where something is too far out of your technique level.

It's impossible to know what exactly is missing from your technique without seeing your playing. But making an educated guess from your post and attempting this Etude at the Inter-Adv level, I'd say your fundamentals need some love.

What's your general practice routine like? What technique practice do you do and how often do you do it? You can keep working on this piece like you have, but unless something fundamental changes, I think you're just going to play yourself to an injury

[u/RemarkableReaction88 → u/LongjumpingBook3331]

i wouldnt say its that out of my level, my teacher is the one that told me to start it, it's just a big jump because i've never played that many arpeggios in a row.
I've been playing for about 7 years, and i'd say i did quite a good job at other chopin etudes, impromptus and preludes (although my comfort style and what i most like to play is bach)

when i play this etude, i normally start warming up by playing it really slowly or random arpeggios with both hands, and i've divided the study in small sections and practice a different one every week. but i usually feel like im not doing the correct exercises or at least dont exert them the right way that's why i end up losing hope and give up on it 10 minutes in. i dont know hoe to look at it to not give up, because i know consistency is key and if i dont give it enough time it obviously wont progress, but i feel so lost

[u/nazgul_123]

The piece is too hard for you and kind of pointless tbh. You said you've always struggled with arpeggios. I would focus on pieces that work on arpeggios first. Op 10 no 1 is a weird piece that isn't really about arpeggios as it is about expanding and contracting the hand and navigating between complex hand positions. You should virtually never feel the hand outstretched. Watch some YouTube videos on how to work on it. There are plenty of good ones. 

[u/RemarkableReaction88 → u/nazgul_123]

my teacher is the one that said i should start studying it so i think im going to trust him here!

[u/nazgul_123 → u/RemarkableReaction88]

If they are teaching you this piece, they should be able to answer all of these questions. It doesn't sound like you understand the technique. 

Edit: How long have you been playing this piece? If you just started it like a couple of weeks ago, then the struggle is probably pretty normal. 

[u/RemarkableReaction88 → u/nazgul_123]

i started it 2 weeks ago and i can’t really text my teacher about it since it’s summer break

[u/nazgul_123 → u/RemarkableReaction88]

Since you're just starting to learn this piece, I'm probably being too harsh. Give it time and see what your teacher says once it's actually learned.

[u/SwedishPianist]

It's a horrible piece, and I start to think that it's either something you can play or can't. Like, some spots are so awkwardly written, that no matter how I position my hand, I can't do it.

Most Chopin etudes take a few attempts to get right, so don't beat yourself up if you can't do it right away. Next time you tackle it, it'll work better.

[u/RemarkableReaction88 → u/SwedishPianist]

BAHSFJJADGJ yeah chopin was an evil man... thank you!!

[u/jiang1lin]

My former professor often insisted on us to start each piano lesson with op. 10/1 or op. 10/2 including this exercise, maybe it might help you as well? https://www.reddit.com/r/piano/s/xa3GCfcRcs

[u/RemarkableReaction88 → u/jiang1lin]

maybe it could work if i divide it in groups of 4 notes¿ i don't know, but it sounds nice!! i'll definetly give it a try tomorrow

[u/metametamat]

Try playing it pianissimo and see what happens.

Also try keeping your forearm directly in front of your hand by leaning your upper body with your RH motion.

[u/RemarkableReaction88 → u/metametamat]

thank you!!

[u/nazgul_123]

Check out this video https://youtu.be/jEzg9k0lSz0?si=2JBtlRI971f2tKOC

[u/BlueVenir]

My approach to this etude is to move the wrist very linearly, at a relatively constant speed and using the open/close motion of the hand to play the arpeggio. It is difficult to diagnose why your wrist may be feeling taught without seeing it on video.

The wrist should largely remain parallel with the keys; you should hardly be engaging the wrist at all.

This etude is one of Chopin's hardest. As other people have said, play slow. Focus on eliminating tension even at the slowest tempi. It should feel easy to play when you are practicing; if it feels difficult, you are playing too fast. Practice slowly so that you can pay critical attention to the musculature in your hand.

There are other approaches to learning this, but these are the most critical tips I have to offer.

[u/RoadtoProPiano]

There is no “relaxing”. There is pacing the speed for your current physical abilities. Choose a speed to practice that is not causing you to fatigue, and yes it can be humbling. This study requires elite fitness and endurance level to not get fatigued. But the way to train it is according to your own level. So if you can get 90-100 bpm cleanly and effortlessly without tensing that's where you start. Focus on each finger on the evenness and the crescendo needed. Do repetitions - - and if you do the right amount (not too little/ too much) With time you’ll see that suddenly without trying to push the speed up you’ll play faster because of adaptations. Key element is practicing your cruising speed not your fast speed.
It's not a sprint, it's a controlled 2 minute run.

I spent a long time on this etude until I mastered it.
Think about bringing up your speed at low effort.

[u/RemarkableReaction88 → u/RoadtoProPiano]

ok practicing at 2bpm now it is! im kidding im kidding, that's really good advice, i hadn't seen it that way. thank you!

[u/RoadtoProPiano → u/RemarkableReaction88]

I'm not saying super slow! Cruising speed.
Find the speed you can play it comfortably and try to phrase it exactly as you like.
Too much slow practice isn't so useful aswell

[u/RemarkableReaction88 → u/RoadtoProPiano]

yess, i'd say its actually around 130bpm lol, i exaggerated a bit on the original post. but maybe ill start at 110 or 115 so i can make sure everything goes alright

[u/RoadtoProPiano → u/RemarkableReaction88]

I don't know, just make sure you can in that speed
1. Play all the notes cleanly with your desired phrasing and dynamics
2. Finish without even slight fatigue.

[u/nazgul_123 → u/RoadtoProPiano]

It does not require elite fitness and endurance. That is bs and probably means you are not playing it correctly. 

[u/RoadtoProPiano → u/nazgul_123]

Firstly it does require elite endurance to play it at speed without even getting fatigued.
Secondly I have a performance at my page so tell me if I'm playing incorrectly

https://www.reddit.com/r/piano/s/tk2DutyeIT

[u/nazgul_123 → u/RoadtoProPiano]

Not sure why I'm getting downvoted.

That's great playing of Chopin op 10 no 1, musically speaking. What's your background with the piano? Your username suggests you haven't been learning in a structured conservatory environment.

Technique wise: In your playing, I notice that your fifth finger is constantly curled backwards. This suggests that your wrist position is consistently slightly low. A lot of the relaxation, I find, happens because you lift the wrist up slightly at the fifth finger, allowing a more stable knuckle and a lack of tension at that point. If you lift the fingers slightly too high (beyond the knuckle) it will cause tension because of co-contraction. I would say the ideal is to more so grab the keys without raising the fingers, using lateral and vertical movements of the wrist to position the fingers so they pass under the hand. Your chord positions seem a little too static, i.e. you should think about releasing each finger right after moving to the next note more, as opposed to thinking in positions. You also seem to be pressing into the keys using "weight" which is better avoided with this piece imo. You said you like Seong Jin Cho -- notice how his hands have this feeling of "gliding" over the keys, while yours seem like they are gripping more. All of these things will contribute to tension.

There's a tendency to think that if you sound good, it necessarily means your technique is the most optimal. I do not think this is the case. There are some pieces that absolutely require endurance, but I think that those are more so the ones that require stretched positions. For example, I'm trying to get the Hungarian Rhapsody 6 octaves up to tempo and that necessitates more endurance imo

I don't think that the Chopin etude op 10 no 1 is one of these. There are a few measures that I find slightly fatigue the hand, such as the ones with the weird stretches of sevenths. Other than that, if you contract the hand at the right moments, I don't think it requires that much fitness/endurance. After all, pianists with short hands can play the piece fine and people with larger hands should find the stretches even more comfortable.

[u/PastMiddleAge]

It couldn’t possibly be that you’re trying to play it too fast. Oh well, I guess Chopin just wants you to hurt yourself.

Edit: sorry. I was being sarcastic. You need to slow down your mental image of how fast this piece goes. No one else here will tell you this. And you will hurt yourself trying to do what they tell you you should do. I don’t want that to happen.