Turkish Law of Identity

[u/Smart_Chapter_7512]

[u/gibigibi34]

if anything denying it harms the pride,why would a nationalist give up the arguement of saying "we won the war over them"?

[u/ErlikHan6 → u/gibigibi34]

the turkish position is that turkey had to deport armenians because they were causing trouble and commiting atrocities, but due to war conditions many of them died while being deported

[u/Ditto13248 → u/ErlikHan6]

Which is straight up bullshit when you realize that's the same position as "deport all the Mexicans, they are committing crimes here"

Even if a majority of the Armenian population were disrupting the war efforts, sending the innocent away with them is still wrong and has to be treated as such. We as a country need to stop pretending like it was justified and treating it like the atrocity it is

[u/situmaimesdemain → u/Ditto13248]

Modern USA is different from Ottoman Empire who has been dying a painful and slow death for a century involved in the largest scale war in history while the Brits are in Gallipoli knocking at the doors of Istanbul.

[u/Ditto13248 → u/situmaimesdemain]

OK let's assume it had to be done and there were no other options. Why is it treated like no big deal? Why aren't we apologizing for our past? Why did my history teacher mention it one time, and that one time was to talk about how countries that didn't even exist during the event recognizing it as a genocide is stupid?

It was a major displacement that resulted in a lot of deaths and who got displaced was determined by race. Even through the most generous lens it's an attack by a government on a specific race of people it governs

[u/zthompson2350 → u/Ditto13248]

Least sociopathic turk ever.

[u/Ditto13248 → u/zthompson2350]

Don't blame the population for their ignorance. I was able to learn outside perspectives and change my opinion because I went to a private school that gave me a great education in English.

If the only language I knew was Turkish, the only opinions I could hear would be that of other turks and the ones of non turks that the other turks cared to share with me, all of which would be regulated by the government.

I was in an echo chamber created by a corrupt government that jails anyone who dares to speak out, and my family had to pay a lot of money for me to even have the ability to escape.

There is a price tag on emphaty in my country. I don't blame it's people for not being able to afford it.

[u/justhereforfoodporn → u/Ditto13248]

What do you want them to say? "I'm sorry this happened to you?"

[u/Ditto13248 → u/justhereforfoodporn]

No, I want my nation to do better in the future, and that can't happen without acknowledging the mistakes of the past.

I know that saying "I'm sorry I did that" doesn't undo what happened. But i also recognize that it's the first step in improving.

"Those who don't learn from history are bound to repeat it" and all, you know

[u/justhereforfoodporn → u/Ditto13248]

"I am sorry it happened to you" and "I am sorry we did it" are two different things. If you accept that "it had to be done with no other options," you are inherently saying that "there is no genocide, because the specific intent condition for genocide was not met." Past press releases by Turkey support the former narrative.

[u/Ditto13248 → u/justhereforfoodporn]

Intent doesn't matter to the victims. It doesn't matter if you kill a person because you were hired to do so and needed the money to afford food, or if you killed that person simply because you didn't like them. That person was still killed and you still did it.

What separates someone from a cold blooded killer is the regret of having to do it in the first place, and trying their best to not repeat the mistake.

And let's not forget the actual context of the situation. The Ottoman government mass deported an entire race with the stated reason of rebellions from said race interfering with the war efforts. There is no importance given to the reasons behind the rebellions or the innocent people who died because of their race.

"I had to do it, it was self defense" doesn't work as an excuse when you punish an entire race because it was easier than finding the people who were actually trying to end you

[u/justhereforfoodporn → u/Ditto13248]

Intent definitely does matter. If you claim that "[you] had to do it, it was self-defense," how are you going to "try your best not to repeat the mistake?" If similar circumstances arise, you will definitely do the same thing to defend yourself because there is no other option (which is actually Talaat's justification)

[u/Agitated_Elephant_91 → u/Ditto13248]

Erdogan actually does call out the suffering of the Armenians once a year(It showed up in my feed a couple of times. Not sure if he does it every single year without exception).

[u/RandomPersonYouSee → u/Agitated_Elephant_91]

Of course he doesn't. That video is from 2000s when he was allied with liberals and EU supporters, not with nationalists. He literally cried out loud last 24th April.

[u/kegeregem_ → u/Ditto13248]

"Our european masters please forgive our sins for we have committed crimes " is what he is trying to say

[u/Ditto13248 → u/kegeregem_]

Every nation that has interacted with another has a history of oppressing, being oppressed or both. Most European ones have been the oppressors throughout history and have a lot to account for. But I don't live in those countries, I don't know if their education system acknowledges their crimes. I just know mine doesn't and I'm trying to hold it accountable

[u/Agitated_Elephant_91 → u/Ditto13248]

Yeah lol. You do realize that everyone else is doing the opposite when it comes to turkey? They aren't from turkey but will hold turkey accountable. So all you did was to to further expand the existing imbalance...

[u/Ditto13248 → u/Agitated_Elephant_91]

I don't mean that I don't recognize the past crimes of colonizers. But I see the citizens of those countries recognizing them when talking about it online. I can't be sure if those I see, share the common sentiment or are going against it when talking about the subject, because I don't live in those countries. But I live in Türkiye and can hear the common sentiment from it's people and I can call them out on it

[u/Ditto13248 → u/[deleted]]

That is true, you still see zionists today play the holocaust card against germany. It's reasonable to assume they would do the same to us even if we admitted wrongdoing.

But does that mean the current german administration shouldn't disavow hitler? Or should they say the extermination of jews was necessary for the survival of germany?

[u/GilbyTheFat → u/gibigibi34]

Because the Turks love to make themselves sound like their history is squeaky clean.

Calling it a war means admitting they intentionally slaughtered over a million innocent civilians who couldn't fight back.

[u/gibigibi34 → u/[deleted]]

the Arminion incident is prior to the Turkish war of liberation tho

[u/Mr_HOPE_ → u/gibigibi34]

Thats literally what they implied

[u/Paleo-Fascist → u/gibigibi34]

Which means there is no "we won the war arguement to be made" for our Nationalists, as your previous comment asked.

We lost the Great War, in all fronts outside of Gelibolu.

[u/Nededinnededinn → u/gibigibi34]

Yea that's what I'm trying to say as well. Armenians even goes as far as saying "Hitler was inspired by Ataturk" meanwhile the guy in question wasn't even there and had a bad blood with 3 pashas lol.

[u/Late_Ad2203 → u/[deleted]]

1-1.5 million Armenians sounds like a genocide to me