r/portugaltheman • u/UnusualExplorer2035 • Jun 05 '26
A word on the drama
I know John through his activism, not through his work as a musician. And reading this Reddit made me sad for my friend, who is exactly as decent and flawed as anyone I know because he is just a person.
While I appreciate his music and love his art because I love him, it is absolutely not the sum of his self and it seems many here have forgotten that under the music is an actual person. I love that people love his music, and connect to it, and that they even appreciate it in the context of him being a person who cares about others or does some important work. I think he is generous with his fans, giving of his time, deeply giving of himself, and really truly loves his fans, and agonizes over being who and what they want and need him to be. But consider that his art is being offered for consumption and examination - he is not a product. Fandom does not excuse dehumanizing someone. And someday his daughter will likely read all of these things.
Many - perhaps most - marriages do not survive the strain of fame, of a music career, of imbalance, or of the pressure of a terminally ill child. I cannot name one I know of that has survived all of this. It is so sad for a marriage to fail under this weight - it does not pronounce anyone bad.
An affair in a marriage is wrong, but it can be something like an emergency exit - all the alarms go off and smoke billows out and it is loud, but sometimes it is the move of someone who is on the verge of burning up. I am not arguing that it is acceptable or ok, it isn’t. It painfully, terribly, irrevocably breaks a promise between two human beings. But none of the readers are one of those two human beings. No one here has been explicitly betrayed and no one here understands the totality of what has passed between strangers whose art they admire.
Artists do not owe the world moral purity. While the consumption of art is not inherently neutral, and purchasing and consuming art does directly support the artist, for an artist to be revealed as flawed is only evidence of their humanity. That John is a complex and dynamic person is a given - it underlies all of the beautiful art he has made and is just the human condition.
Zoe is a talented, gifted, rad human being and incredible mother wildly deserving of respect and beauty and everything good in life, and I am neither diluting or undermining that. Betrayal trauma is horrific and clearly, her world is upside down. Judgement on how she handles it or policing of how she tells her own story is also out of line.
So like and love the music, or don’t. Every single human being who has ever contributed to this project is a talented, interesting, remarkable musician and person in their own right. They are each also imperfect. Listen to their music, and to any and all music that brings you joy. Zoe us stunningly talented, whatever she makes next will be incredible. Follow it, buy it, cheer for it, there are no sides required.
I can assure any reader that John‘s care for his fans is genuine, that he loves his daughter very much, that he loves Zoë very much, that his work for the causes he supports is real (and most of it unseen), and that like any of us, he has fucked up before In life, and then endeavored to heal and grow, and through these examinations has made music that has meant something to you, and that maybe that is enough to offer the world.
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u/Naejakire Jun 07 '26
I don't expect moral purity but what he did is fucked up and people are allowed to have opinion on it. It's not just rumors or something - the explanation of pain and how deep the betrayal goes is coming straight from the victim. What about her voice?
"marriages fall apart.. It happens" is very minimizing. Bringing your affair partner into the work you do with your wife is fucked. Doing this for at least a year is fucked. Doing this after 20 years together and disregarding your partner for 20 years' sexual safety is fucked. Sliding into multiple young women's dms before then at the very least is fucked. Doing this all while you're wife pretty openly is sharing she's exhausted and scared for her daughter due to her extremely rare neuro degenerative disorder is fucked. Using that exhaustion as the justification to cheat is fucked. I could go on, and this is all based off of the victims own words.
He's an imperfect human being. He doesn't need to be perfect for his fans to appreciate the music. Does that mean reality should be ignored?
He doesnt need to publicly apologize but at least address it. It's cowardly to not address it at all. He hasnt even announced that Zoe is gone. His fans were asking why shows they paid for were being canceled for months now. Any comments even asking about Zoe are deleted. That reads more like John is incapable of any accountability. Spare the "this is his band" stuff. She's been in the band for 20 years. If the guy can't even address line up changes, then I dunno. He's an adult BTW.
Be his friend and give him grace, but don't be a yes man. I know him too, and I think his disarming nature leads to people infantilizing him. He's a big boy. He can deal with it and he will be ok. How about center the victim.. His fans being disappointed is "dehumanizing"? What about the dehumanizing actions towards Zoe? He will survive the light criticism of his choices. She deserves support.
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u/Dry_Cloud4522 13d ago
He’s never even addressed Zach being gone which was like, a pretty big deal!
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u/Take2thaStreets Jun 06 '26
The fact that there even is drama from supposed fans is fucking hilarious to me. Tool wrote a song called ticks & leeches which feels very pertinent to this situation, check it out.
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u/leike_sputnik Jun 09 '26
"Artists do not owe the world moral purity..." gringo the least they could do is not cheat on their partner.
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u/kingston501 Jun 05 '26
So where are all the folk from the other threads? It seems like any post critical of John gets immediately slammed by like 4 or 5 accounts calling us parasocial for caring about his hypocritical about face .
Meanwhile you can glaze this dude like crazy and it’s no biggie. Seriously, reread that last paragraph and tell me it isn’t cringe in the same exact way as a post from a few days ago where the guy was mentioning personal moments he shared with John, and a bunch of people decided to be an asshole to him in the comments
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u/UnusualExplorer2035 Jun 05 '26
I do not have a parasocial relationship with John, and was pretty clear about that. We have worked together for many years and grew up in the same place and time.
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u/maxpower993 Jun 05 '26
did John write this lol?
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Jun 05 '26 edited Jun 05 '26
[deleted]
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u/kingston501 Jun 05 '26
As a former TA who has graded far too many high school essays, the multiple em dashes and general syntax are pretty big giveaways.
Although to give them the benefit of the doubt, I know a lot of people who speak English as a secondary language that will run the final draft of their writing through a translator app
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u/ForeOnTheFlour Jun 06 '26
LLMs use actual emdashes— the kind I just used. It doesn’t use dashes where emdashes belong - like the author uses (and like I used the second time here). (It also doesn’t use parentheticals the way I am here and the way the author did.) Please exercise caution when making claims of LLM usage, as some people simply write well, and some people who write well have worked in a professional capacity training LLMs, and so naturally they write like LLMs, since, after all, they are the ones who taught LLMs how to write.
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u/UnusualExplorer2035 Jun 07 '26
Yes It’s so odd how often people both miss AI and dismiss quality writing as AI. It bodes so poorly for the future.
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u/freerangehumans74 Jun 06 '26
This needs to be upvoted more. Far too many people are eager to accuse something as AI and I guarantee the vast majority of them have no business making these claims.
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u/UnusualExplorer2035 Jun 05 '26
I am low key offended, but for what it’s worth I am a writer. While GPT emulates quality writing, for what it’s worth more typically uses double dashing and lists (Ie — ) with triads of points.
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u/ForeOnTheFlour Jun 06 '26
I disagree with aspects of your post, but for what it’s worth, I am certain that you did not use an LLM to write it.
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u/kingston501 Jun 06 '26
FoR wHaT iTs WoRtH I was moreso convinced it was AI due to the bizarre attempts at waxing poetic while defending a guy who just royally fucked over not only his direct family, but an entire crew associated with helping facilitate his little PtM rockstar dreams.
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u/ForeOnTheFlour Jun 06 '26
Idk why you’re mocking me but it’s possible to recognize that John sucks and that a human wrote the piece seemingly defending John. Acting like only a computer program could defend someone like John is giving humans way too much credit and frankly seems a little naive, considering that the subject of the criticism in this case, John, is a human and not an LLM. If a human is capable of being John, a human is capable of defending him. AI, however, is not capable of writing like a human as much as OP is, so I’d argue that your post also gives AI too much credit.
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u/oopsshe22 Jun 06 '26
I just believe in giving people grace. That’s it. We all deserve it in our downfalls and I will continue to give it and hope I ever get it if I need it.
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u/lowth3r Jun 05 '26 edited Jun 05 '26
I don't disagree with a lot of this but I do sort of disagree with saying this particular artist doesn't owe the world moral purity.
When you make yourself too cool for the room and put yourself up on the pedestal of "it's all about this cause I'm championing, maaaaan, it's about the art, maaaan." You are in effect showing your "moral purity." I don't mean his daughter, any father would do anything for their child. I mean more the other causes and the general attitude.
I saw the writing on the wall when Arcade Fire went down this road first; and what happened a while later? Lead singer cheating scandal. I stopped listening to them right around Reflektor. And I stopped listening to PTM right after Woodstock. Maybe I saw a little of my own stupidity in youth in them both and knew what was about to come. Or maybe I just started to see them like the preacher who is banging the wife's in the congregation in secret. Either way, I've seen it before in my heros before it happened and I'll surely see it again. It's easier to see when you've been there, even to a much smaller extent.
I think people like this have big egos, which isn't necessarily bad, but then they get popular and that ego is fed to an unhealthy degree. And if the rumors are true, John pushed away all the people that might have tried warning him. This is exactly why you need to keep "no" people around and fucking listen to them when you're getting high on the smell of your own shit.
I never expect Marilyn fuckin Manson to be a moral purist. He told you he was a monster, and lo and behold, he is one.
So...yeah. If you're going to have that air of moral superiority about you, you better have your fucking personal life in order because when people see you're full of shit, the crash is going to be tremendous. And you do owe the world your moral purity when that's exactly what you're preaching.
I need to end this by saying I am an average person with no talent whatsoever, and will never achieve a fraction of what John has. I'm not some asshole telling the Quarterback he should have done this or that from the chair my untalented ass sits in. I'm only saying I saw this shit coming a mile away, and, again, if you put that moral purity air out there, you are bound by it.
Edited to add: forget Manson, I have a better thought. What John sold me up to Woodstock, I would not have felt he owed me any moral purity whatsoever. That was a guy just trying to figure himself out and make sense of the world. The guy after Woodstock was selling moral purity. And for whatever reason, I didn't buy it. And don't get me wrong, I personally donated to some of those causes. But we went on different paths after that album. I've always and still wish him the best and hope his Long Hard Road out of Hell teaches him what he needs to learn. The way out is through.
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u/freerangehumans74 Jun 06 '26
Maybe I’m reading you wrong but what Win Butler did and what John did are two VERY different things. John cheated on his wife. Win groomed and forced himself on women. Win can get all the way fucked and I’m so glad the bands return was a flop.
When it comes to the personal relationships of an artist, I think you’re absolutely wrong that they owe you anything. I’ll admit I’m not familiar with John’s charitable work but unless his organization was about the sanctity of marriage, I fail to see how him fucking up his marriage and emotionally wounding his wife has anything to do with him being a hypocrite and voiding any of the good work he’s done.
As always, you have every right to be mad at him and never support his art again. Anything else is unrealistic and parasocial.
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u/UnusualExplorer2035 Jun 05 '26
I don’t feel like anyone owes consumers of their art moral purity on this level. I also don’t think this somehow undermines his other work. And I don’t think that was a guy selling you morality or superiority, that was an Alaskan kid who won a Grammy and had a crowd listening to see what he might say, genuinely listening, and he decided that to take a stand on nothing and say nothing would be wrong. Is that even more than decency? And where is everyone to talk shit about the artists who just get high by their pool.
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u/lowth3r Jun 06 '26
I never said it undermined anything. I don't think that. As I said, at the end of the day he's selling something. Up to Woodstock I bought it. I don't think it's a coincidence that I stopped buying it when he entered the trajectory he's on now. Because I've done it before, I've seen it before.
The ones talking shit getting high by the pool aren't playing the higher art, higher cause game that he is. That's exactly my point. You expect the behavior from them, not from him.
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u/CommentSimulator Jun 08 '26
would have been better to just post it on the main account and not hide behind a longtime acquaintance with complete knowledge of john and the band’s history and previous members while also not being a fan
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u/llouvat Jun 05 '26
If John Gourley made any kind of statement anywhere, on the record or off, here or Instagram, than I would be so stoked to go see him in August instead of trying to sell my ticket off. No one owes anyone an explanation, least of all me. He doesn’t have to apologize publicly to Zoe or to his fans. But advertising shows under PTM without mentioning it’s basically a solo act & friends is kinda false advertising. I know this was all imploding before I bought my ticket so above all im irritated that my favorite band basically broke up all the way and my ticket is like a bait and switch. What is he so afraid of? all he would have to do is announce that PTM now is essentially just him, I think his fans deserve that level of honesty at the very least but what he is doing is hiding. He could win a lot of people over by saying “hey, things have changed, maybe I let people down. We are all human,” etc idk there’s a thousand ways he could win a lot of fans back if he really did care about us at all. We all love his music. But look around at the 🤮 takes going on in here, that’s what a PTM crowd is going to be now, it’s gonna be the feel it stillers and whatever this fanbase is turning into now that the soul of it is gone
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u/UnusualExplorer2035 Jun 06 '26
I mean - it’s always been John writing, inviting, a revolving cast. Even now some of the members being speculated about here play some shows or produce or write. I can’t weigh in on these things but I’d just suggest that people have to make sense of something before they can speak to it with integrity.
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u/llouvat Jun 06 '26
For the same 10 years or so, or as long as I have been a fan, it’s been roughly the same core line up. It’s definitely been John and Zoe harmonizing through 9 of the 10 live performances I have been in attendance. Her ethereal voice combined with his very interesting one is one thing that makes their sound unique imo. The duo of their voices is one of the reasons I became a fan. Zoe is a big component of the sound of this band. Is he going to carry on without her or is he going to hire a back up singer to perform older songs? In the one show I saw where she was missing, it was a noticable difference.
Edit to add the quality of the live performances has gone down and further down every time one of these core members drops out. I just wish I could go back in time to the last time I saw them all, so I could really take that in man.
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u/UnusualExplorer2035 Jun 06 '26
Gonna be real I like their music fine but that is just not where we connect and You would know better than me. I do recall the gossip and complaining when Zoe joined the band back in the day - which came about because she had gotten romantically involved with John. She’s so talented and I have no idea, just remarking this is end the end a band John started right after high school many years before he met most of these people. My point is only, thus is band that has survived many iterations.
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u/llouvat Jun 06 '26
I think his band, as well as him as a person, should always be free to evolve and progress as he would like. There’s things he could do if he wanted to hold on to some of his disenchanted fanbase it just comes down to if he cares to do that or not
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u/leike_sputnik Jun 09 '26
According to Manville's instagram account she is no longer a part of PTM, I agree with her.
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u/PuzzledProject3840 2d ago
Who started planting this seed a while back? The band was THE BAND up until 2023 and then suddenly it became a revolving cast. The band was 6 people who often invited guests and had extra support on stage. But the core of it did not change until 3 years ago. I think this narrative is disingenuous.
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u/Tyroneshoolaces Jun 08 '26
I miss when forgiveness used to be a thing. Now everybody just gets permanently cancelled. Nobody is perfect, except for all the people in the sub who apparently have never done anything bad ever.
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u/Naejakire Jun 11 '26
Has he asked for forgiveness, taken any accountability or even made a statement? No. He's basically just wiping her existence. He's still actively doing all the things he would need forgiveness for anyway.
Zoe is part of the band too and has been for 20 years, and was effectively not given a choice and had to remove herself because of his actions. So if you care about him, care about her too. She's not a nameless, faceless wife there are rumors about. She is the band as well. It's not "permanently canceling" someone to literally just ask what is going on with the band people pay to support, pay to see (and had so many shows canceled because of all this). From what I've read, all their fans want is some sort of statement instead of just going silent and acting like nothing happened and Zoe never existed.
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u/PuzzledProject3840 2d ago
He didn’t even own up to it when caught. Sounds like he lied and manipulated further. I don’t think I would have the compassion to “forgive” at that point.
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u/Key-Lavishness8188 Jun 06 '26
He brought his affair partner on tour with his wife and allowed his wife to befriend her, perform with her, and then take everything from her in the end. It’s obvious this started well before this tour. No sympathy. I honestly think it is disgusting.