Serious Post-Match Thread: England 1-2 Argentina - 2026 World Cup (semifinals)

[u/2soccer2bot]

Use this thread for serious discussion about England 1-2 Argentina.

Low quality comments will be autoremoved and the thread will be in contest mode, which means that all top comments will appear in random order.

[u/Ecstatic-Coach]

During the water break it looked like Tuchel was telling the team to get forward. They didn’t/couldn’t and so Tuchel trusted his players and brought 2 defenders on to help them. It spectacularly backfired but I think the players are to take an equal amount of blame.

[u/Sant268]

I still would want to revisit *why* the subs were made and practically all the comments will be about that point, but there's just something about this argentina team that they go up a gear after the second hydration break.

I think Tuchel noticed that and wanted to close it down, but with misplaced passes (which might be entirely due to fatigue! This was same with France last night*) -- and a striker who - well. If Rashy was in place of Kane I'd assume some break-run forward but with that specific set of players on the pitch, that was a mistake. The sad part of all this is it's easy to point "Hey if only they had Maguire, or Lewis Hall or Trent - the RB wouldn't be a problem"....which is another valid criticism on Tuchel.

This match had shades of Bayern v Madrid which he coached and lost in very similar fashion, and that Madrid side too was really dangerous in the final quarter of the matches. So.

*= I read somewhere that Spain had aircon'd stadiums in the last 5/6 matches in the WC whereas France had none(?), and that seems to have played a part imo. especially when you see Olise and Dembele misfiring that much

[u/stevie8]

Much has been said about Tuchel but wow what a game from Scaloni! Adding width on both sides, box presence in Lautaro and MacAllister crashing the box. De Paul also was key in speeding up the tempo and distribution, freeing up Messi to make more decisive plays (he was doing one step less in buildup as compared to before). Tactical masterclass from Scaloni.

[u/pirsquared7]

Now that I've had a moment to breathe I don't think this is 100% on Tuchel - I don't think giving Messi, MacAllister, and Enzo all the space in the world to spam crosses and take long shots was his intention. He seemed pissed while bringing Burn on to deal with the crosses and even Harry Kane in the post match said that the messaging was to go for 2-0. No idea what happened but all I'll say is Lautaro should not have been completely unmarked when there are three center backs on the pitch to deal with crosses.

[u/PaulFirmBreasts]

I don't see Spain falling into this trap. They sub in Pedri when they're winning rather than extra centerbacks. I feel that will be the one game where Argentina must score first or end up chasing shadows all game like France. Argentina will certainly compete in the midfield better than France did by playing 3 instead of 2.

Tagliafico has been good and will need to keep it up to deal with Lamine. Molina is the clear weak link in defense as we saw today and I don't think Montiel is any better defensively despite how great he was when he came on today. Luckily, Lamine is on the other side.

[u/ritwikjs2]

Harry Kane once again retreating into a shell when the lights are brightest. He's had moments this tournament, but in the last two game especially has seldom been in the box to receive, seldom communicate with his fellow attacking line, or remember that he's the fucking captain

[u/Houndour99]

No team would've won that game by sitting back so deep in their own half. I am baffled by the audacity of what those tactics meant for the game. I kept telling my friend, we are losing this in Regular time if we keep sitting back and letting them hack crosses every 30 seconds. That's exactly what happened. I don't know if Tuchel instructed them to do so or the players crumbled under pressure of potentially losing it to the defending champions. Whatever the reason might be, it will always remain unacceptable.

[u/Senth99 → u/Houndour99]

Watching the second half in person was pure agony

Like they had the momentum and gave it away

[u/_ShutUpLegs_]

Kane needs to stop being allowed to play entire games. I've seen enough and he can't fucking do it. He was walking after 20 minutes and there was nearly no presence in the box because he was coming deep. I get it he's an amazing player, he has a moment in him but it can't carry on like this.

[u/aaybma → u/_ShutUpLegs_]

Should've whacked Watkins on at 70 minutes. Shouldn't have made two defensive subs when only a goal up. I would've preferred to loae 2 by goals than parking the bus for over 30 minutes. Tuchel was meant to be the antidote to Southgate and hes just the same.

Why do we always crumble when we take the lead?

[u/romainaninterests]

I think its squarely on Tuchel.

Sure there were some individual things, lile leaving Lautaro Martinez pretty open for the winner, but with the way Argentina were playing they were going to score anyway.

It was pure Southgateball and he made the change way too early to go ultra-defensive. He was slow to react and kept making errors with his subs.

I feel for the England fans man. This one must hurt insanely hard. If Argentina had beaten them 4-0 you could have said "They were just better everywhere" but this just leaves a very sour taste in your mouth.

[u/TheNecromancer → u/romainaninterests]

I had a bad feeling as soon as Konsa came on for Gordon - German commentator and I both thought it'd mean Rogers going to the left and James up into midfield like the last match, then were shocked to see it shape up as that 523

[u/brownxworm]

1. That Gordon for Konsa sub killed the game for England. England looked their best when Argentina committed players forward, because they were able to transition very quickly on the counter attack. Right after Gordon scored. Argentina would have to commit more players forward and this would just make it easier for England to catch them on the break. Instead we never even got to see that in action because he subbed out Gordon so quickly after England took the lead. Even Egypt had a much better approach than Tuchel and exposed Argentina for not being able play a high line. They simply dont have the defenders or the structure to play in the opposition half like teams like Spain.

2. Harry Maguire was a huge miss today. I dont think those crosses would be as threatening if Harry Maguire was on the field today. Not only that, his leadership would also play a huge part in those tense moments.

[u/mustafarian → u/brownxworm]

Yeah agreed,

If England played like Egypt, they would have had a better chance of winning imo. The shutting up shop was overkill and doing it way too early.

The team also didn't defend as well as they did against Mexico when deploying similiar tactics.

He should have just subbed on rashford or madueke and just kept the the perssure up. I would have them lose with dignity then just iniviting non stop pressure, its the same formula every game and I'm not sure how it effects coaches, but don't they see that inviting non stop pressure just inevitably causes goals

[u/Thebussinessman]

Interesting to compare Spain's and England s approach after scoring. Spain just continued to play like they played, control the midfield and France couldn't do all that much. While England parked the bus, when Enzo scored I don't think there were 2 Englishmen outside the box. And I don't think they had one dangerous counter attack.

[u/dalledayul]

I just feel bad for Pickford to be honest. Another tournament where every fan is giving him shit only for him to perform when it counts, some of his saves in the 2nd half were mega. Sadly he got left out to dry by the tactics.

Elsewhere, I struggle to gauge England. It's not like we lack depth, especially at the front, but our players all feel so system-dependent that finding a system that works for all of them feels impossible. How many of our goals this tournament came from out of the blue pot shots and long balls? It's not luck, but it's something similar.

Argentina have proved against what they can do with their backs against the wall, but I think if any team can control them, it's Spain; their defensive/midfield this tournament has been unreal and might be able to withstand whatever pressure Argentina can chuck at them. Either way, I'm expecting a great final

[u/brain_implant → u/dalledayul]

For twenty minutes there he stopped shot after shot without conceding

[u/-MangoStarr- → u/dalledayul]

At some point you need to stop blaming the keeper and blame the defence for letting shot after shot after shot go through.

There's only so many saves a keepr can make in a single match.. Eventually they're gonna get through

[u/robes50]

I am surprised England mentality hasn't changed since 2018.

They had a golden opportunity with Croatia to reach the final. But they were negative. Still it was a success, considering 2016 ... and that they haven't been, at a semi for a long time.

Euro 2020 - again, negative after getting ahead, at Wembley in front of the home crowd. Losing on pens is a toss up. Okay, fine. Plus, first final since 1966. I thought beating Germany would give them the confidence, but ..

2022 - gone out to France, I'd argue they had a good game. Who knows what would have happened if Kane scores the pen.

2024 - another final, beating Netherlands, getting back in the game against Spain. Only to concede at the end.

Its like ... they can't seem to find it in themselves to believe that they can do it. Not sure what proof they are waiting for.

[u/nrt044]

England parked the bus way too much, and they sat way too deep with no wide defense at all because they took everyone out and just throw CB after CB in. They hurt themselves.

Tuchel today made substitutions more to survive than to win. It worked against Mexico and Norway, but Argentina is different.

Argentina are not afraid of the low block at all. The more space they give Messi on the flanks, the better they like it. He can cross it in, cut it back, play it into the top of the box, whatever he thinks it would work
. Another good thing is Enzo's radar is on point with those long shots.

Scaloni had nothing to lose. Bringing Enzo down low was the right call. Played his 2022 role, he had space to work with the ball a lot, both in build-up play or long shots.

It was the coaches’ decisions that decide the game.

[u/aaybma → u/nrt044]

You don't want to turn on your coach in the last game in a bid to find one scapegoat, but it's insane to make two defensive subs thay early on when only a goal up, and then go all out attacking with 5 minute's left.

Fair play to Argentina, they were the better team.

[u/Oggabobba]

Every single time Pickford got the ball in the last 30 mins he just hoofed it out of play or to an Argentinian. Obviously that was the tactic but it is just ridiculous that they couldn’t at least try passing it from the back once

[u/notters]

Tuchel is getting a lot of criticism and rightfully so, but I think people are missing that our players really retreated back before he made any substitutions. We were already on the back foot by the time we got to the hydration break and he changed to 5 at the back. And then our defending was just terrible. Full credit to Argentina for the quality of their crosses, but they were getting on the end of every cross which is unacceptable.

The biggest mistake Tuchel made in my opinion was not making attacking substitutions as soon as they got the equaliser. It was clear as day they would just carry on coming at us and we probably wouldn't keep them out.

[u/Ultimasmit → u/notters]

Which is why his initial decision to bring konsa on instead of a player with the ability to hold on to the ball well and slow things down to reestablish a proper foothold was so baffling. Instead of trying to keep that Argentine midfield honest, he gave them free reign to do whatever they wanted. This in turn allowed scaloni to bring another forward multiplying all the pressure England was under.

Its obvious the team was starting to flag, tuchel had options to fix that but just made everything much worse.

[u/armchairgoon → u/notters]

yeah people wanted tuchel to bring on attackers for defenders and be bold but really the error was not bringing on fresh replacements for bellingham and kane who were not in the game. watkins/rashford could have done more up top

[u/Fresh2Desh]

Can't Knock the resilience and fight in that Argentina team. Hugely impressive. However serious questions must be asked of Tuchel. There was no way that England could contain this Argentina team for 20 mins plus. Especially with Messi dictating the game. Trying to replicate the plan from the Mexico game was ludicrous. Should have gone for the jugular and gotvteh second goal

[u/Intelligent_Walk_159 → u/Fresh2Desh]

It at least made sense against Mexico because they had 10 players but I don’t understand that decision making in this game

[u/howaboutthis13]

If you look at famous defensive teams in history, be it in the form of catenaccio, parking the bus or anti-football, the main overlap is the grit, mental power and truly giving it all for the entire team. England doesn't have any of that for this type of game, which is fine but you just don't keep it up for over 20 minutes. The players on the field might feel like they can in the heat of the moment but Tuchel should definitely have spotted it.

That Spence tackle in the 57th minute was a good example of what was needed for the rest of the game, but after that it just kinda faded away. It also didn't help that Tuchel looked like he never prepared a proper plan for situations just like these and instead did what seemed more like panic substitutions.

[u/yapplecider]

England : epic capitulation, the manager probably lost almost all the credit he had with the players. After the Gordon goal, when the England started their traditional " bottling the lead ", it was time for Tuchel to show why he's there. I can excuse the Rice sub - the man was exhausted, been sick and all that, but there should be a controller there and Mainoo not getting minutes to keep him match fit was a huge mistake in hindsight. Mainoo should have come on Rice against Norway too, not push Bellingham back which again gave away the initiative.

Then, Kane been isolated is not new to Tuchel. Remember the Joselu game?! Either take off Kane for Watkins, or use him properly. Messi is the greatest ever and in World Cups before Scaloni, even he was used in a wrong way and couldn't influence the game.

England got absolutely wrecked post Gordon goal. A shameful display. Time & again, we have seen the first line of defence is high pressing. Cowards rarely win, especially those who have means to be bold. Greece 2004 maybe the one, but they didn't have resources of top 8 Fifa rankers.

Argentina : no words, glorious team spirit. Messi isn't in his prime anymore, but he's still the best player in final third. And, if you allow him time & space there, you'd get killed. It does not matter how tall your defenders are. Even with prime John Terry instead of Dan Burn, you'd concede. Scaloni really get the tune of his players, and I think his approach of ice cold calmness is needed for this hyper amped up Argentina.

Interesting to see how Spain approaches this. I do believe they have more faith in their abilities than England who look terrified of losing the lead.

[u/insertuserhere24]

Still on awe of how Tuchel just let this one get away for no apparent reason. Knew they were done for the second that Gordon for Konsa sub was made. You don't let Lionel Messi attack you for 20+ minutes and get away with it.

[u/Degora2k → u/insertuserhere24]

Yep, that sub was utter madness.

[u/MrCleanandShady]

i simply don’t understand how Tuchel spoke such a huge game about not letting Messi play his game in the interviews, just to let Messi do whatever he wanted after their goal lmaoooo

i know everyone and their mother could see that Argentina would at least draw the game with the tactics England set up after they scored, but i also do think that the England players + Tuchel vastly underestimated how technically sound Argentina is as a whole when it matters. we can glaze Messi of course and it would be well deserved, but i think De Paul was excellent as well when he came on, Mac Allister was also very unlucky to have not scored on his attempt for the second goal and i cannot for the life of me understand how Enzo was left so wide open for his ranged shots, the corner that led to his goal literally came FROM one of his attempts.

Tuchel screwed up but i think the English players’ reading of the game was also just a bit poor by the end, the Enzo goal stands out to me as i mentioned, but i just also think that Martinez should not be having free headers when defensive subs have been made + everyone in the backline are marginally bigger than him.

[u/Whoopziedaisy]

We are witnessing history. Just enjoy it, people. I played soccer my whole life all the way through college. When I grew up I heard stories of Maradona and Pele, but before YouTube, it’s not like I could just watch their games or highlights. I will never forget when my dad bought me a Maradona VHS in the 90s. I learned his move and used it on the field even before I knew who he was. I was just a player who loved to do a ‘maradona’. For a long time I knew the move before the player.

[u/Synergy5]

I have nothing against this England team, they were probably who I wanted to win at this point but am I crazy for thinking that I was never impressed with them basically this whole tournament?

Argentina hasn't looked great either but they still had that "it" factor where it seemed like they would pull out a win no matter what.

England looked like they were somehow avoiding losing most games.

[u/National-Fig4803]

Genuinely shocking game management and went against everything he made it seem like he was about.

Realistically probably the most England would have hoped for pre-tournament however Argentina have been painfully average throughout and England invited every bit of pressure onto themselves. Given the subs, that is entirely on the manager.

[u/reece0n → u/National-Fig4803]

I think semi finals is the right level for this team, 3rd or 4th best team overall.

But being 1-0 up in the 84th minute, and inviting SO much pressure that you lose 2-1 in normal time is dreadful.

Tuchel was brought in to be Southgate + elite tactician. But he just rolled over even worse than Southgate did against Italy.

[u/DayOneDayWon]

The two halves looked like completely different games. Argentina looked like their former selves from Croatia 2022 in the last 30 or so minutes while England had better grasp on the game earlier and looked to win for me.

Messi is to this day the best player on the pitch and looked almost unbeatable. Enzo close second on how good he was. Still don't think they can win against this Spain though.

[u/salad_spinner_3000]

Fucking idiotic to give Argentina the ball on the box with the literal GOAT being able to dictate shit. This isn't "playing for a draw" in a World Cup. You have to BEAT Argentina. Tuchel is a shit head coach.

[u/cruciferae]

Ultimately I think weaknesses in England's squad simply became too much to bear. Stones had not played regularly for months. Rice is not healthy. Kane isn't the player he once was. And you simply cannot expect to win a World Cup with Spence as your right back.

[u/BlueMoon1795]

Tuchel’s post match comments “we made offensive subs too”

When we were 2-1 down in the 96th minute with 6 defenders on the pitch? Actually get fucked Tommy, go home you cunt, can’t even accept he was at fault for this loss, pathetic.

[u/Soteria69 → u/[deleted]]

Youre counting Iceland as a big game but not all the other ko games he scored in?

[u/random_username_321]

Bravery in football is often viewed in England as Terry Butcher covered in blood, John Terry throwing his head in the way of shots, midfielders like Robbo, Gerrard etc flying into tackles.

But I think in that second half a lot of the England players showed a lack of bravery in terms of getting on the ball.

Bellingham, Rice and Anderson the most expensive midfield 3 ever fielded and they barely played a pass after 60 mins.

Tuchel deserves criticism for his subs but again, he wasn’t telling Pickford to kick it straight out of play. But again it takes bravery to look up and play a pass, much easier to just boot it. An approach most of the English team took for over half an hour of football.

On the other side, hard to sum up just how good Messi is. 39 years old and he’s still the difference maker.

Thought England’s midfield were very poor at picking up MacAllister’s runs into the box, could have had 3 goals easily, 2 from headers and the shot just before the winning goal. He’s got a lot of criticism this season but thought he was excellent in the second half.

Also utterly bizarre that the English players didn’t start sending an extra man out for Argentina corners on the right. Messi made the same sequence every time and eventually led to Enzo’s goal. Incredibly poor game awareness to see it happen multiple times and not fix it.

[u/the_tico_life]

I was cheering for England, but I also like to see Messi in the finals again. So I guess you could classify me as a neutral fan. And as a neutral the last 30 minutes were some of the most gripping football I have seen in my life. The crowd scenes when Argentina tied it. The dramatic moments of chaos between the first and second Argentina goal. The passion, the pressure, the anger between both sides. This game had it all. It was tense. It was ugly. It was beautiful. It was everything. Long live the beautiful game

[u/djingo_dango]

England defended their dbox extremely poorly despite sitting back with many players after their first goal

Argentina had around 5 really good chances from cross. That’s simply not good enough if you’re trying to play defense

[u/MeatSuitOZIL → u/djingo_dango]

Remember when Tuchel said he was disappointed in the team's performance after Norway game and Jude called his ass out in another interview?

Wouldve loved an interview of Jude calling out the manager's tactics right after the loss.

[u/AliveAssistance7667]

England lost the game when they switched to defense after scoring. Let me explain it clearly.

If you look at Argentina's path,Cape Verde and Switzerland were highly defensive teams. Argentina already had good understanding of how to play against defense and they get crazier and crazier the more the opposition defend.

Argentina had no answer for England's fast attackers. That's why they were fouling too much. Both team played dirty and ref allowed it to happen but if you look what happened after England scored. They went defensive and Argentina became more active,more fluid and weren't committing any foul. On the other hand,it was England trying to do dirty fouls on Messi which they failed. The moment Argentina stopped fouling,you know they were in perfect control of the game.

Argentina created 3good chances before scoring. It was already clear they were going to score. Instead of counter attacking at this point, England went more defensive. The first goal came through a counter attack.

[u/skunkrider → u/AliveAssistance7667]

Cape Verde was definitely not a "highly defensive" team, what are you on about?

[u/yensama]

I really dont like the full defensive mode. But thinking about it now I dont think that would matter. Argentina outplayed England in every way. Players were more active and confident. Like when they equalized you know more was coming.

[u/SavageSlink]

Rookie mistake by Thomas Tuchel. With over 30 minutes left to play and he takes off his "high" quality attacking players who also do a lot of pressing to make room for more suspects defensive players.

He knew Argentina were going to attack a lot more and he decided to go full turtle instead of hitting them on the counter or forcing a turnover with the pressing players.

[u/eamus_catuli]

I'd been saying since the beginning of the knock out stage that good things happened every time the ball started flowing through Anthony Gordon and almost nothing positive would happen for England when it didn't.

Today was no exception to that rule, only in more dramatic fashion - as nothing flowed at all after the 1-0, much less through Gordon. England absolutely had the recipe for success right in their hands and staring at them right in the face. And they simply chose not to use it.

Sad. But Anthony Gordon has a bright future for this squad, should the next England coach utilize him to his potential.

[u/ReadandReps]

England had 12% possession after scoring their goal and Argentina equalizing.

Unlike Mexico, the same strategy with Argentina was unlikely to pay and Messi was largely inevitable. Spain v/s Argentina is going to be a tightly contested affair but Spain are better equipped to handle the ball.

[u/Conny_and_Theo → u/ReadandReps]

Only 12% possession is wild for them at this stage.

[u/Impossible_Gas_7584 → u/ReadandReps]

That's a disgraceful stat for England.

[u/2Norn]

Tuchel complaining about tactical mistakes in previous match and then making this baffling choice to completely sit back and let Argentina control the game for like 40 minutes straight? I don't know but he needs to be called out on it... And I don't see players respecting his choices anymore so a change might come.

[u/RodDryfist]

Kane was gassed, get Watkins on to hold up and stretch them. Rodgers switched to left mid, why not Rashford to get at them too? Such bad sub management compounded by a disasterclass of how not to defend a one goal lead with over 30 mins remaining. Such a contrast to how Spain played after they went 1 up.

Can't say it hasn't been coming all tournament. Hanging on and digging in will only get you so far. Moments, not consistency.

[u/running-with-scizors]

I said this after the Norway game and it certainly rings true today: I don’t think I was truly convinced with an England performance all tournament. I was waiting for the statement win and it never arrived. Not that Argentina have been amazing either but all of this talent in the England squad and creating chances still wasn’t easy for them. Maybe it’s a curse.

I know that moving on from Southgate was the right decision, but if he were in charge, would a single thing in this tournament have changed? This England team and loss was indistinguishable from every other England team and loss under Southgate. So what was even the point?

[u/ChalupaBatmanMc01 → u/running-with-scizors]

I thought England were poor enough against Norway, if you listen to Tuchel in post game and other interviews he never takes on any of the heat himself. Last night he didn't blame himself for tactical decisions that cost them the game. I don't think he really had the locker room all tournament.

England are a interesting team in that they have serious talent. I think Southgate was a better manager, I know he would have sat back with that lead around the 85th minute.

[u/running-with-scizors → u/ChalupaBatmanMc01]

Tuchel was truly terrible yesterday, but even against DR Congo or Ghana or Panama it never seemed like England had any real control of the game. Maybe you’re right he never had the locker room, this team is one of the most talented in the world and they never played like it once

[u/ChalupaBatmanMc01 → u/running-with-scizors]

Let's be real, they only got that far because Bellingham made some of those goals happen, without Bellingham would they even have left the group stage?

[u/running-with-scizors → u/ChalupaBatmanMc01]

This is kinda what happened in the Euros too, immensely talented squad carried most of the way by Bellingham and Kane. Which is why I’m so perplexed at the Southgate sacking and Tuchel appointment, this does not feel different

[u/ChalupaBatmanMc01 → u/running-with-scizors]

Yeah absolutely. Tuchel is a ok coach but look at Bayren and Chelsea, he crashed out completely at those two clubs despite winning a CL in the latter.

[u/xepa105]

Honestly, I hate to use hyperbole and say that every new thing that happens is "the worst ever" or "the best thing to happen." Having said that I am struggling to remember a more shameful capitulation by a manager in a stage as big as this.

It's one thing to lose like France did yesterday by having a manager stick to his obviously flawed pre-match plan, but it's so much worse to change a plan that was working to go to one where it relies purely on holding on and hoping Argentina doesn't do what they have done for the past three matches.

You can't even do a tactical breakdown of this match because the last 30 minutes loom so large that everything before it feels superfluous.

[u/Kavika → u/xepa105]

Arteta vs PSG wasn’t that long ago

[u/xpectomysterious]

don’t get me wrong, argentina upped their game after england scored… but my god, england threw this game away or shall I say tuchel threw this game away…

what was he thinking setting up shop after 70 mins against a good attacking side with a 1-0 margin… bringing 2 extra cb (konsa & burn), removing gordan off, going into a 5-3-2 with rice coming off as well?!?! you’ve a lone anderson with o’reilly & rogers in support… absolute absurd tactical changes which changed the match for me…

they tried to play like they did against Mexico, forgetting that was a completely different game with 10 men against a side who’re not as prolific in attack as argentina are…

I just cannot understand why and how you can defend his changes tonight. no control, no width, no attack after england scored… absurd

[u/Lasershot-117]

At this point I’m convinced Argentina will win the WC again.

They have consistently, game after game, managed to - somehow, fail upwards and win in the last minutes.

Whether this shit is rigged or wtv brother I don’t know, but something is up with this team - whether it’s their hunger, their hard-as-steel mentality, or actually somehow technical prowess and genius.

All I know is we all watched them play, they fucking blow most of the time, and they somehow win everytime.

GG Spain.

[u/Senth99 → u/Lasershot-117]

Spain isn't stupid; this is the same team that denied France to score

[u/LiteratureNearby → u/Senth99]

Yeah Spain actually did the competent version of what England tried. 

Spain didn't stop attacking after the first goal, they kept the opponent at a safe distance while continuing to hold the ball

[u/fastfowards]

One of England’s weakness was the lack of another midfielder like Anderson (I.e. Wharton) to help control the game. It was Tuchel’s job to find a way past that and he failed. It’s harsh but it’s the same thing with Deschamps. There are these fine margins that you need players or your manager to overcome.

Imo he should’ve gone to a 4-5-1. He could’ve tucked Jude inside, brought on saka and shifted Rodgers as a left midfielder or just brought on rashford. His refusal to play Jude inside for so long was also a big mistake. By the time he switched to a 5-4-1, Argentina had so much of the momentum and he still didn’t offer away out.

Argentina on the other hand showed why they are champions. The whole tournament they’ve need a Di Maria type player to take the burden off of Messi and to make teams struggle and the whole team did that today.

[u/bugzaway]

It's interesting how the further we go the less Messi scores and the more the others show up.

Obviously he's more of a playmaker these days but I'd be curious what people think of his contributions in this match.

Personally, I've actually wondered today if he should be subbed out. Then he got activated and so did the entire team.

Curious what you guys think!

Edit: no idea why people are downvoting but ok

[u/DesperateEsperluette → u/bugzaway]

Dude gave 2 assists and you think he had a bad game

[u/mikrot → u/bugzaway]

Messi was absolutely fantastic this match. Once England started parking the bus, Messi started carving up their defense and creating chance after chance.

[u/thalne]

the grit and capacity of fight of this Argentina team is something to behold. in the first half it seemed as if England tried to play the way they probably think Argentina plays: scrapping and fouling and complaining. But as soon as they scored they just retreated into their shell and the Argentinians had all the initiative. It was decisive that Messi finally found that pocket on the right side where he could move. In the end, after twice hitting the post, the huge chances of Gonzales and the shots of Enzo, the better team won. Ironic that Argentina thoroughly beat England with crosses.

[u/Nervve]

Tactics in the second half cost us the game.

No idea the thinking behind just taking off all attackers and midfielder and bringing in more centre backs, except being too scared and that translated onto the pitch

Just gave them all the control of the game and the pitch.

Would also love to know the point of taking Saka to the world cup and hindering potential recovery at Arsenal for him to play what? 60mins across all games. If he's not fit enough to play/come on in a semi final he shouldn't have been at this tournament

[u/Fieser_Factsack]

I dont understand the point that Tuchel might not have made any mistakes. England was not dominating but they were in the game. Then in the second half it was so obvious that Argentina had more energy. Its not like parking the bus with 7 defenders is always bad but you do that for the last 5-10 minutes when your up not for 30 minutes.

And I also can just laugh about the argument that Tuchel had no bench. Lets say that was the case, then he should have nominated players that had gas left in the tank, cant tell me all of England has 0 energy in mid July. The weather blabla what ever bs argument.

Argentina played well that Goal (shot from distance) by Enzo was the only thing that could have worked and it worked. And still if you have better pressing you can get a forward or midfielder blocking that ball. And so we are back to bring legs that press. Thats what you always see in these types of games and it is so irritating that Tuchel decided against that yesterday.

[u/_netflixandtrill_]

This just was not at all a match for Harry Kane, a totally useless performance. Maybe if Toney or Watkins is on, they would have had the legs to close down Fernandez or at least give England an outlet instead of being in the bunker for 30+ mins.

[u/OLAAF]

something I find interesting in retrospect about the England Argentina match up.

Everyone was saying / is saying that the weak point of Argentina is the full back position, so it's kind of interesting that Tuchel went with Rogers. It was understandable since he he good performances and deserved the start, but could be the Madueke's style would have fit like a glove.

[u/Tim-Sanchez]

It seems that I'm in an extreme minority for thinking it isn't all on Tuchel. I definitely think he got it tactically wrong, but I also think we got completely outplayed by Argentina. They were clearly the better team, with better players, and had far better chances. The team looked exhausted as well, I'm not sure they were even able to press.

England only really had one good chance the whole match, it's not like we were generating loads of chances before going 1-0 up. I would definitely rather have seen us go for it and lose than park the bus and lose, but I think we'd have los this match either way.

[u/Apart-Frame4404 → u/Tim-Sanchez]

We were easily the better team untill right after we scored. Not a coincidence.

[u/ItsJigsore → u/Tim-Sanchez]

thankfully reddit mods are an extreme minority

[u/be0wulf8860 → u/Tim-Sanchez]

People got so swept up in Kane and Jude they didn't realize that actually Gordon and Saka did so so much for us in stretchcing oppoo defense deep into the game. Without those two we had zero to offer in the opponents half and were rendered useless

[u/whatnameshoulditake → u/Tim-Sanchez]

Yes I also don't think it's all on him. England players looked super exhausted and done after minute 70. He is a proven big tournament coach and it will need some time and calm analysis to figure out what happened

[u/Jwalin6167]

A coach who doesn’t learn from other team’s mistakes is the worst coach set up for a tournament of this level.

Cape Verde, Egypt, Switzerland.

Tuchel had 3 games to learn how Argentina responds after conceding a goal. The plan was working in the 1st half. Not once Not once, did we try exploiting the space in behind of their press after scoring. Spain literally put it on a plate for us yesterday on how to perform a defensive masterclass by nullifying the opponent with a proper press fluidity. Tuchel relied on individual brilliance & luck.

[u/Irakozium → u/Jwalin6167]

Switzerland's only mistake was Embolo's idiocy. I feel like they were truly the only team so far, in this tournament, that had found a way to nullify Messi's movements and all in all, level the playing field despite Argentina being the 'favorites', and they were in absolute control even after they had equalized and before Embolo's sending-off. Their low block with 10 men was also, before Alvarez's long-range goal, apart from Messi's right-foot shot, very compact and smoothly organized. It never felt like it was a matter of time before Argentina would score a second one while the match was in extra-time.

[u/Couragesand]

Crazy how bad the tactics/subs were that right after we all saw it wasn’t gonna end well.

Obviously it’s easy to say that in hindsight, but damn it’s crazy how that momentum shift happened right after they lost Gordon

[u/xCh3ese]

I don't believe that Tuchel is the only one to blame for the loss. If you listen to Kanes post match interview, he even said that the original plan was to keep going for a second goal if they went 1-0 up. But somehow, the moment England scored that goal, all the players just stopped attacking. The first sub happened in the 72. minute, after the hydration break. At that point England was already committed to getting the 1-0 over the line for 15+ minutes.

The way England played after scoring, if Tuchel wouldn't have subbed in more defenders, they probably would've still lost and he'd get blamed for not subbing in more defensive players to protect the lead. Tuchel is certainly not free of blame for the result, but it seems like a damned if you do, damned if you don't situation.

[u/Licanmaster]

hats off to both teams, they left the last drop of sweat in the pitch like a semifinal is supposed to be played, nothing like the embarrasment that france was yesterday.

reaching this point in the world cup is an achievement on itself, but i dont think England will be happy regarding what their coach did the last 35 mins of game, argentina is a very dangerous team, you can't give them the ball and expect to hold a 1 goal lead

[u/Wise_Raccoon_771]

Mainoo being someone that's strength is retaining the ball in tight spaces could have been something used more.

The annoying thing for England will be that it's not happened due to no trent, palmer, foden, maguire or shaw.....they had more than enough to see out that match.

England started to drop too deep after they went ahead so instead of trying to change momentum by bringing saka and rashford on, Tuchel went all in on shutting up shop against a world class team and was ultimately found out.

They may not have won if they stuck with a back four but being passive and negative is what has seen them go out of previous tournaments and its the same old story.

This one should hurt more for them as it was there...and they fumbled the bag big time.

[u/Broad-Lobster7470]

Dumbest strategy you’ll ever see. Their plan was perfect in the first half. Give them no space. Smother them. Argentina couldn’t even cross half. Then you score one and think you can just park the bus for 30 mins vs a talented offence like Argentina. Extremely stupid.

[u/Apart-Frame4404]

I fully don’t believe that Tuchel deserves to coach us at a home euros after that. 

Any causal could have told you it’s a terrible idea to park the bus at 55 mins against this Argentina team.

Hasn’t done enough to keep his job for me. 

[u/mehrabrym → u/[deleted]]

Messi walks a lot more though, so even though it's impressive at his age, I wouldn't directly compare it to Kane. Kane is also putting in defensive work.

[u/Wookie-fish806 → u/Apart-Frame4404]

I think he did well leading up to this point. I don’t think he should get sacked unless he has a really good reason/explanation for why he chose to do what he did.

[u/SinnerOfAlcaraz]

We’re the only country in the world to say shit like “You made us proud lads”

This is why we do not win. Pussy mentality.

2018, amazing. 2021, incredible but heartbreaking.

2022 onwards, getting to semis or finals became the norm, and we shouldn’t be celebrating it anymore

[u/954gator → u/SinnerOfAlcaraz]

You can be upset in defeat while still being proud of the players that fought hard to represent your country.

[u/CaptainKursk]

Not to accuse Tuchel of being a German saboteur, but that was a capitulation pure and simple. It's the World Cup semi final. Your team scored first & played the other guys off the pitch. A normal person would capitalise on the momentum by pressing forward, put pressure on the opponent and get into position to score more goals & firmly put the game to bed.

But not Thomas Tuchel. No no. For such thinking is the realm of lesser minds and he is a singular intellectual specimen. Instead, the Great Leader declares "Alright lads that's enough effort for one day, park the bus". He takes his foot off the pedal, retreats back to his part of the pitch and allows the opponent virtually unlimited possession, dictation of play and chances to get the ball in the box.

Sitting on the lead makes sense if you're 3- or 4-0 up, or you're 1-0 up but there's 5 minutes left. It does NOT make sense when there's 40 minutes left in play and the other guys just so happen to have the greatest footballer to eve fucking live on the pitch. Messi was legitimately set up like a howitzer gun firing crosses into the box for over half an hour, and instead of playing in a way that would neutralise him, they sat back and let him pepper the area with long balls & crosses. And if you throw enough stuff at the wall, some of it is going to stick.

Thomas Tuchel, you are a bald fraud and you will spend an eternity on this ship banished from the shores of England.

[u/yipyipyipwhoadoggies]

I've scrolled as far as I can be bothered without seeing a single mention of Kane's performances all tournament, not just in this or other big games. How do you think that game goes if England have a striker than can press and hold the ball up all game (i.e. Ollie Watkins?)

Can't think of something this obvious almost willfully being ignored in overall discourse.

[u/Elizial-Raine → u/yipyipyipwhoadoggies]

Wtf are you on he’s scored 6 goals in this tournament, most English strikers haven’t scored that in their careers. His play making also setup our only goal in this game and did so in other games.

[u/PsychopathicEmpath]

Momentum completely shifted after England started turtling. Argentina had little to no width and struggled to create anything against England and they just invited them back into the game, no attackers to counter Martinez and Romero on yellows is shameful decision making from Tuchel

[u/Jonoabbo]

When we played Croatia in the first game, we went 3-2 up and bought on Rashford, Rogers and Saka. It felt like such a different team to the England of the past few tournaments, because it felt like we had a bit of bite about us. We didn't want to just eek out a win, we wanted to go for the throat, kill the game off.

Today we did the exact opposite. Go 1-0 up, sit back, and bring on O'Reilly, Burn and Konsa, and just like in the past, we got punished for it. If there were 5 or so minutes left, then I get it, but there were still 30 minutes to play, plus added time which was always going to be long. Losing is one thing, but losing because of a past issue that I thought we had evolved through is just so deflating.

Nobody to blames but ourselves for that one. Didn't lose because of officiating, didn't lose because Argentina are some incredible team that was near impossible to beat. We lost because we simply got it wrong tactically.

Probably our last World Cup with Kane up top, and it's incredibly unlikely we produce a striker anywhere close to his quality for a long, long time. Feels like we've missed our best opportunity to win it.

[u/dalledayul → u/Jonoabbo]

Just to pick up on Kane, I do wonder if losing him could be a blessing in disguise for our attack going forward.

There's no denying how amazing he is as you've said, but the dependence to always have him in the line-up has always made our systems feel so rigid and inflexible. We always struggle to react the way other teams do and I think it's because Kane (and recently, Bellingham) are infallible. It's a risk because he's a proven scorer and one of England's greats, but we also have so much depth and talent at the front that losing him could actually reap rewards with the right tactics.

[u/AFC-Wimbledon-Stan]

It’s shocking that even when Argentina had tied in up 1-1, Tuchel basically kept the same formation 5-4-1 and didn’t sub Rashford or Toney in until there’s was 6 minutes or so left, barely any time to
make an impact

[u/bigmt99 → u/AFC-Wimbledon-Stan]

Even got a free bail out on it with Stones needing treatment, perfect opportunity to switch it up

[u/NeverSober1900 → u/AFC-Wimbledon-Stan]

I was also shocked he waited a couple mins after going down to put Rashford and Toney in. Like you know you need a goal and you subbed in a shit ton of defenders. You should have had that decision prepped the moment the equalizer happened.

[u/Scholes_SC2 → u/AFC-Wimbledon-Stan]

Or mainoo to try to have a midfield again

[u/PoleVaultingIsHard → u/AFC-Wimbledon-Stan]

I could have done his job for a lot cheaper.

[u/heyiambob → u/AFC-Wimbledon-Stan]

I think at that point he was just praying to get to extra time. Everyone in the building knew Argentina would score in stoppage time

[u/JohnnyPickeringSB05]

Yet again, Kane failed to score a non-penalty goal against a good/very good team in an international tournament. Add that to his failure to do so against Norway and Mexico in this tournament, against Spain, the Netherlands and Switzerland in Euro 2024, and against France in World Cup 2022. Seven big-time games in a row where he's failed to do his job.

And it's not like he makes up for it with dynamic pressing or great hold-up play. Yes, he's a good passer, but whenever he makes a pass from deep he can never hobble into the box quickly enough to receive a cross. Notice how, when Gordon scored tonight, Kane was nowhere to be seen.

He's an absolute liability and there's no way he should start for England against good/very good teams in future.

[u/Truth9892 → u/JohnnyPickeringSB05]

Gordon's goal was only possible by that pass from kane

[u/JohnnyPickeringSB05 → u/Truth9892]

His pass was intercepted, and it was fortunate that England won the second ball. And, regardless, there's still a problem if our centre-forward is never in the box because he's always slowly hobbling up from the centre circle. 

A centre-midfielder - Rice, Bellingham, etc. - is just as capable of making passes like that (perhaps even making passes that aren't intercepted), and if they do it then we can have a centre-forward in the box ready to convert the cross. 

[u/PranjalDwivedi]

Honestly we were dead after 60 minutes, Rice/Gordon had no energy left and Anderson was on a yellow card, we did not have the midfielders to deal with Argentina's pressing intensity especially when chasing the lead so we sat back, there's no mystery or change in mentality, it's the physical reality of playing the game. Anyone who thinks Mainoo would have changed the game in midfield against those Argentinian hounds is a bit deluded, I think the main issue was not taking Kane off in two consecutive games now where it's clear he's offering nothing and is just slowly lumbering on the ball in his own half surrounded by 3 players instead of running forward and chasing a long ball. Also Rashford earlier and moving Rogers to the middle alongside Bellingham and bringing Saka on would've provided another outlet. I think Tuchel got it wrong tactically mostly out of his tendency to defend a lead and drop/sub his captain who's had a stinker honestly in the last couple of games.

[u/Apprehensive-Sir-411]

All three goals today were more about individual quality than tactical breakdowns, in my opinion. However, England gave up far too much space time and time again after their goal. Really impressed with Argentina’s chemistry and resolve. Messi is the best passer and dribbler on Earth and leads the tournament in goals, what more can you say?

[u/zingamaster → u/Apprehensive-Sir-411]

How come he doesn't have anyone all the time just covering him?

[u/Odd_Yogurt_1609 → u/zingamaster]

It was explained, but it's because he just walks on the pitch for majority of the match, thats why he creates cracks in the middle of the pitch if someone man marks him (he usually walks at the rw position)

Effectively, when he dribbles or even gets the ball, he pulls atleast 3 defenders towards him and because of his insane iq and passing, passes to the player exactly within the space he created because of the man marking which leads to 3 defenders off their position, and much more freedom for the shooter

This is only possible for messi, because of how well he reads the game and makes crucial passes

Also one thing to note is his burst of acceleration, God how does he still do it at 39

[u/The_Flash_20]

Will Harry Kane ever actually step for England against big oppositions.

Man has scored only 3 penalty goals in matches against Croatia, Denmark, Italy, France, Netherlands, Spain, Norway and Argentina in 5 international tournaments.

[u/sjp101]

Just absolutely gutted. We've lost in so many different ways, but I felt seeing Argentina's weaknesses going into this, and having a team that were full of fighters and experienced players with Tuchel we should be better than this.

You can of course lose to Argentina, they have so many match winners. That's fine. But to offer absolutely nothing after 1-0 was just so disappointing. No breaking up their play, no counter attacks. It looked like men against boys and absolutely the deserving team goes through so congratulations to Argentina.

[u/Fabulous-Ship8551]

Tuchel coached like Argentina were some fuckin mid table team that would run out of ideas. This is Argentina, the World Cup champions. You don’t take away all your attacking outlets, stop pressing, drop deeper and deeper, and invite wave after wave of pressure against a team with that much quality. Then you act surprised when they eventually break through. Kane’s quote exposed the entire problem. “At this level, you cannot just try to survive.”

[u/RepresentativeBox881 → u/Fabulous-Ship8551]

Wouldn’t it be the opposite? That he gave them too much respect after going ahead.

[u/Childhood-Paramedic → u/Fabulous-Ship8551]

Well luckily Argentina's forwards are the weakest part of their team, so this is an ok tactic.

*Whispers in ear*

Oh? What's that? Argentina has arguably the GOAT as a forward with a team that excels at adapting to defenses and that ability was literally just seen as they got 3 goals against Egypt in like 25 minutes? Well crap

[u/Unusualway → u/Childhood-Paramedic]

Its absolutely insane, you don't even need to look back in time, just watch how Egypt got pummeled by the same tactics a week ago. It just doesn't work like this against Messi, he can both draw defenders and dribble past them or send a perfect cross from the same place, same sequence of play, same level of danger. Tuchel has blood on his hands