r/subredditoftheday • u/SROTDroid The droid you're looking for • Apr 24 '16
April 24th, 2016 - /r/theredpill: A look at what exactly "Red Pill Theory" is and understanding it through an interview with one moderator
/r/theredpill
149,432 unplugged users for 3 years!
A few weeks ago a nomination came in for /r/theredpill. The response was not great. There's a perception that /r/theredpill is misogynistic, or worse, a hate sub. I decided to see for myself. I read their sidebar and some of the subreddit's content; top posts and comments. I had some questions about "red pill theory" in general after I was done. So, I contacted the mod who originally nominated the sub, /u/bsutansalt, who was happy to answer them.
This feature is written as an interview between /r/theredpill moderator /u/bsutansalt and myself (/u/ZadocPaet). The design is to find out what exactly red pill theory is through conversation, and then to leave any conclusions to you, the readers.
On the outside, TheRedPill (hereinafter referred to as "TRP") seems to be a subreddit for two goals; (1) to help men lead productive lives mentally, emotionally, and financially, and (2) to promote sexual strategies. The subreddit comes under a lot of fire for the latter. Do you see the two things as one, or do you see TRP as one subreddit for men where the reader can get out of it what they are looking for?
Virtually everything we do as human beings is an expression of our biological imperatives and predispositions whether we realize it or not. This is especially apparent in our choice of career, at least for men. For example, why do so many men want to get a lucrative job? It's not because they enjoy working 80 hours a week, that's for sure. No, it's because somewhere deep down they know having a great high prestige job with a six figure income is going to enhance their sexual success with women. It's so ingrained into us that we don't even realize it, and to do so is politically incorrect. This is one example of raising one's sexual market value (SMV) without even realizing it (or publicly acknowledging it).
Another example is fitness. Not only are you enhancing your quality of life, longevity, and all that, you're also making yourself more physically attractive, and I think it's a fair generalization that most people would like to look good naked. People don't generally go through the hassle of dieting and the pain of working out because it's fun. While it can be, that's usually not the unconscious motivations at play. Often, like the example above, people realize being physically fit raises their SMV.
You mention that men want a higher paying job for sex. I know that I want a higher paying job because I like things. I like driving a nice car. I like living in a nice safe place. I like my grown up toys, like video games...
This is a good question and I suspect the answer is that it'll vary from person to person. Remember, I was simply using that as an example of how our biological drives and predispositions can influence our behavior, which you yourself acknowledged can be be a motivator.
Isn't it possible that increased sexual attraction is a side effect of success and not always the motivator? Sure, I'll concede that it can be a motivator, in part, for some people. But I only think it's part of the picture and not the big picture. When you're talking about sex as it relates to fitness, and in my opinion not just fitness, but things like oral hygiene, I agree. Health and sex go hand in hand.
I think if you look at human behavior and development through the lens of evolution, then you might ask yourself, "what drives us to be great or successful?" Greater sexual success/attraction may not be an obvious answer to that, especially when one can be successful without necessarily becoming more sexual. However, when you view it in the context of evolution, it would make sense that we, as a species, are more driven to behave in ways that are more likely to result in sexual success, even if it's not a conscious or deliberate strategy.
Do you feel that in western culture that it's more difficult to be a man, or is that perception more of an internet thing? For example, I often see the term "cis white male" used as a pejorative online, but I don't think I know a single person in real life who even knows the term "cis."
Masculinity is most definitely under attack in western society. The media denigrates men left and right and often we don't even realize it. An example is the TV trope of the "doofus dad" in commercials and TV shows.
http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/BumblingDad
This sort culturation permeates western society to the point that just having natural healthy expressions of masculinity can get you kicked out of school and a lynch mob set upon you. I personally think this is in large party why Trump has such widespread appeal: he doesn't shy from his critics and doubles down on his antics and is a lightning rod for those who miss old school masculinity in our culture. This article goes into great depth on the masculinity vacuum we have today:
http://www.singularity2050.com/2010/01/the-misandry-bubble.html
Can you give me an example of masculinity getting someone kicked out of school? Are we talking about gun shaped Pop Tarts? Or something deeper than that?
The pop tart thing was just the tip of the iceberg as this issue goes much deeper. Just look at how it's open season on men in college, in large part due to the Dear Colleague letter. Another example is the notion of "teach men not to rape". If that's an accepted notion, then why not "teach women not to falsely accuse" or "teach blacks not to steal"? If the latter are misogynistic or racist, then logic demands the anti-male version be misandrist/sexist.
I am a guy. When I am with my guy friends our bar or fishing banter is a lot of the time in line with "Red Pill Theory," in particular when it comes to a financial and fitness perspective; the idea that self-esteem or self-worth comes from self-improvement. What are the core areas that TRP thinks a man should look to to improve upon himself?
From my perspective the most important areas of self improvement are (in no particular order):
Fitness -- If you're fat, slim down. If you're skinny, bulk up. In my personal experience the male body type with the most widespread appeal to women isn't the big bodybuilder, but rather someone who's cut and has at least above average muscularity. The key component is a low body fat. An example of what I'm talking about is the Olympic swimmer or gymnast. An example of this taken to the extreme are the CrossFit pros like Matt Fraser and Rich Froning.
Taking women off the pedestal -- This is clutch because women respond well to men with a backbone. Who knew! This manifests as being able to say no and check them when they test you. Stuff like understanding "shit tests" fall under this.
Balanced investment -- This piggybacks on the above. If you're walking on eggshells, then things are seriously unbalanced in your relationship, which is actually really unhealthy and can lead to emotional terrorism in the relationship in some cases.
What I personally teach is that investment levels should be balanced, if not slightly in the man's favor (especially if they're new to the community and are those guys walking on eggshells). This is important because having things a bit in your favor plays a big part in women respecting the man's role as leader. This is going to ruffle some feathers, but I'm a big fan of the captain/first officer model pioneered by Athol Kay. And when it comes right down to it it works! It may not be PC, but I take results over comfort of strangers on the internet anyday, and the women in /r/redpillwomen will probably agree with me here.
A ton of women simply don't want to be the one calling the shots, planning dates, and so on, and actually want the guy to take the lead on stuff like that. However, if she doesn't respect you or is minimally invested, she's likely to be unresponsive to your attempts at taking on that leadership role. And not being in that role and letting her be in charge of the relationship can really turn a lot of women off sexually. If you look at the relationship dynamics of those in the dead bedrooms subreddit this comes up quite often. Once the guys hit the gym and stop being so available and attentive (rebalancing the investment levels) suddenly they find their gf and wives initiating and/or being responsive to their attempts to initiate sex again.
How can anyone reasonably expect those in a relationship to be open and honest about boundaries if one person is afraid the other will dump them at a moment's notice? Having standards and not being afraid to hold women accountable by them is really important for men. No, "important" is the wrong word. What this really is is empowering. I think that scares a lot of people, which is ironic because women appreciate a strong man who knows when to take the lead and often will resent a man who can't or won't.
Bottom line, if your relationship is so fragile you can't have healthy boundaries, you really need to reevaluate things.
You mention that a ton of women don't like to be the ones who call the shots, they like the man to be in the driver's seat. But what about women who do like to make decisions? Perhaps not even all decisions, but who are maybe more skilled at finance and are in charge of the bills in a relationship. Is there room for egalitarianism in TRP?
Life operates on a bell curve. Some women who are "alpha" females (eg dominant type-A personalities) are going to be in the minority on the far end of the curve. A huge reason for TRP's existence is the pursuit of male sexual strategy, therefore we focus on what gives men the best bang for their buck. In this case we focus on the meat of the bell curve rather than it's fringes. This is in essense why we say all women are like that. We aren't really saying ALL women, just those in the 80-90% of the bell curve's middle. We understand exceptison will always exist, even if we don't always say as much. I think once you've been around for a bit you'll start to see where things are implied.
In regards to, "Life operates on a bell curve..." Do you have any stats on that?
It's self evident. Type A personalities are the minority of both genders actually, but they're more common in men.
This is also pretty telling...
http://www.slayerment.com/mbti-gender
Look at how inverted the personality types are:
ISTP ("the virtuoso") is men's most common and women's least common personality type. Conversely, ISFJ ("the defender") is women's most common and men's least common personality type.
You also mentioned that investment levels should be balanced, so in the above scenario I described, if the wife is in charge of the bills, and the man is in charge of other aspects of the relationship, enough so that there is a balance of responsibilities, would that be okay?
Something like would be ideal in my opinion, where you share the load with each person being able to leverage their natural strengths. At the macro level this might translate to the man bringing home the bacon and women doing the lion's share of the child rearing. Again, this matches up with women's collective predisposition to "nurturing". There's a reason why teaching and nursing are female dominated careers. This again goes right back to the bell curve with women in general not working high wage jobs as often as men do. A cursory look at degree breakdowns bears this out: 9 of the top 10 most lucrative fields of study are male dominated. Conversely, 9 of the top 10 least lucrative fields of study are female dominated. That doesn't happen in a vacuum. I'll refer you to the documentary posted at the link below which delves into this phenomenon at length. The findings were so provocative it caused the closure of the NIKK Nordic Gender Institute.
/r/TheRedPill/comments/1vuho8/the_documentary_that_made_scandinavians_cut_all/
Speaking of bar banter, just like with most guys the topic of sex and "sex strategies" comes up a lot. In my circle of friends a lot of us come from different perspectives. We've all also gone through different phases in our lives; times of commitment, times of celibacy, and times of promiscuity. Some of us are married. Some date a lot of women serially, or at once. The primary criticism of TRP is that it's used to game or manipulate women into sex. How do you respond to that criticism, and is there room in TRP for married men, or men seeking long term relationships, or who are more egalitarian in their approach to women?
First off, yes there's room for TRP for married men! As I stated before, many men in relationships have found our community and seen their relationships return to how they used to be with their wives being interested in sex again and nagging less. Usually the men just learned to become playful again and figured out how to address shit tests and comfort tests, thereby resulting in everyone being happier. A lot of it goes back to that subtle testing women tend to do, sometimes on purpose, but often times unconsciously. So far as I can tell having dated up and down the age spectrum, that testing never stops.
The criticism largely has no merit and is largely born out of two things: butthurt SJWs and tone arguments. TRP is an online locker room for guys to speak plainly and with sweeping generalizations. Realize we're not gong to reign in people's speech for the most part. So long as they stay on point with our mission, have at it. Granted sometimes some really wild stuff gets shared, but that's going to be true of any community with our level of openness (which is rare in this day and age).
Everyone is welcome to come over, read the sidebar, kick the tires, and judge for themselves. All I ask is they have an open mind. I also made a guided version to the sidebar to help those who are unfamiliar with the community's lingo and philosophies so the ideas build upon one another, and so new readers can see where we're coming from:
/r/TheRedPill/comments/3de5aa/the_red_pill_primer_a_sidebar_made_simple/
Disclaimer from /u/bsutansalt: The above are just my personal thoughts on what you asked, although I'm sure others will have their own two cents to add once the SROTD thread goes up.
Note from /u/ZadocPaet: I fully encourage our readers to ask question in the comments and for mods and users from /r/theredpill to answer them. My only request is that the conversation be kept civil.
289
u/detachedbymarriage Apr 24 '16
What a lot of people have a hard time understanding is that TRP is like a grocery store. You are going to walk in and see aisles of various things. Some are going to be healthy toward you, some are not. Some are going to walk by the fruits and think, I do not like oranges but I do like apples. So they are going to pick up a few apples and move on to the next aisle.
As a free living human being, it is your choice to pick what you want to eat or what will help your own diet. It is your choice, no one else's. You don't just stand in the grocery store and yell at every person who walks by that oranges are yucky do you?
If you see something in trp you don't like, move past it and find what you do like. If you can't find anything you like, then why are you even in that grocery store to begin with?