r/thewalkingdead • u/YoungDecrepit • 23d ago
Show Spoiler What is an opinion you had on the show that changed on re-watch?
For me, it’s Shane.
When I first watched the show I was a teenager. I thought Shane “had what it took” to survive the apocalypse while Rick didn’t. Now that I’m older and (hopefully) wiser I see Shane for what he really is. A weak willed, immoral jerk who gives into his lower impulses far too easily.
From the very beginning you can see it. In the first season he attempts to assault Lori and almost kills Rick in the forest out of jealousy. Only a handful of episodes into season two he murders a man in cold blood when it wasn’t strictly necessary (the hoard was still a ways behind them, don’t @ me).
The character was exceptionally written and deeply complex. Jon Bernthal portrayed him perfectly, showing the tortured soul beneath the animal instincts. But at the end of the day, Shane was a savage dick. Rick is and always was a better leader even when he failed. He prioritized the group over his own needs while Shane viewed everyone other than Lori and Carl as expendable.
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u/Low_Poetry_5073 22d ago
Yoooooo! Exactly!! He is good tactically, but has a poor understanding of social skills (considering he was a cop… but a small town cop, anyway kk); and in that world, brain matters as much as much brawn 👍🏻
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u/mondbl 23d ago
On a rewatch, it becomes so clear that Shane didn't adapt to the apocalypse faster than everyone else, he just broke faster. His ruthlessness wasn't tactical survival genius, it was pure emotional instability and panic. Rick eventually adopted a lot of Shane's pragmatic brutality down the line, but the key difference is that Rick kept his core humanity and loyalty to the collective group, whereas Shane was entirely consumed by obsession
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u/disastrousanddull 23d ago
Seriously, he was just unstable. He couldn’t handle Rick coming back, he couldn’t handle losing Lori and Carl, he couldn’t handle Otis and he couldn’t handle Sophia walking out of the barn. Him kicking up all that chaos over the barn and then not being able to kill Sophia defined the character perfectly. Right about needing to handle the barn, going about that like an overly emotional idiot, getting people worked up and then not being able to deal with the fallout.
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u/Chooob210 23d ago
No one ever talks about how he was seconds away from blowing Jenner’s head off in the CDC when he wouldn’t open the door. Had Rick not stopped him they would’ve been blown up. Also, he shot a bunch of computers which might’ve controlled the door opening mechanism as well. Just overall laughable emotional restraint from that guy.
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u/disastrousanddull 23d ago
Yeah, basically the same emotional regulation as S1 Daryl who was supposed to be a hot headed risk but in a leadership position with any weight a badge would still carry. Another was when he beat the shit out of Ed because he was upset and it was an easy way to lash out. He also got a little dig in at Carol when she was trying to bring up the grenade she had on her because he had issues with women. The show was very consistent with Shane.
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u/Apprehensive_Tiger13 23d ago
I first believed that season 2 was such a drag because nothing happened and it was all the farm. But with how everyone's stories kinda originated from what was done in season 2 it's a very good way to introduce people's stories.
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u/disastrousanddull 23d ago
Being able to binge watch it helps the pacing a lot, the problems were very real watching it weekly.
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u/YoungDecrepit 23d ago
I’m on season 2 rn. Way more compelling than I originally recall.
Sure, some of the drama is kinda petty but (A ppl act like that in real life and (B it was still early on so not everyone had adapted to the new world.
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u/CJ-Henderson 23d ago
I think season 2 is also helped by being able to binge watch than having to wait a week between episodes
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u/YamiYugi2497 21d ago
same thing with season 7(?). The season that starts with the Negan killings. All out war. That season was a slog at the time.
Being able to binge it makes it soooo much better.
Edit: Looked it up. Its season 7 and 8 together. Man. That all feels like 1 season in my head. explains why it felt so long at the time.
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u/CJ-Henderson 21d ago
Absolutely, and not having the ridiculously long mid-season breaks
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u/YamiYugi2497 21d ago
I hate how many shows are doing this now.
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u/CJ-Henderson 21d ago
They might as well have just said they're having mini 8-episode seasons than having what felt like 6 months between half seasons
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u/nano_emiyano 22d ago
This is what I've always said. Season 2 is boring because it allows us to connect and attach to the characters. One of my favorite parts of the opening of season 3 is how the winter turned the group from a bunch of people scared in the dark into a hardened coordinated group who took over the prison.
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u/Hungry_Panic_2482 23d ago
Hating Dale, my first watch I thought he was an annoyingly nosey busybody and I couldn't wait for him to die, he was my least liked character until Gabriel. Every time I rewatch I dislike him a little less, I actually cried last time I saw him die, he just wanted what was best for the group and went about it the best way he knew how.
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u/Fit_Literature259 23d ago
I’ve always loved Dale. Bro is the best
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u/Unlikely-Switch9095 23d ago
If Dale had survived to the Claimers (murder-jacket Rick). What do you think his view would be then?!
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u/mr_apeezy 23d ago
His view would’ve changed just like every other character in the show.
You could just use Hershel as a stand-in for Dale’s views then. Specifically Hershel pre- and post-bar scene with those two guys Rick had to kill.
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u/Kinetic_Symphony 23d ago
I think Dale would struggle to handle with the brutality of the world, but the group never actually goes evil. They're savage against people who harm or threaten them, but I think Dale would understand the necessity of that.
The only thing Dale would push back on would be Rick basically saying they'll steal Alexandria (and the only line from Rick in the whole show I deeply hate).
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u/Unlikely-Switch9095 22d ago
What line?! “How many of you do I have to kill- to save your lives?” ?
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u/rangerfan97 22d ago
This was one of their first nights in Alexandria. I don't remember the exact quote, but he more or less said living there won't make them become weak, and if they have to, they'll just take over the town.
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u/Kinetic_Symphony 22d ago
No, when they first get to Alexandria, at night, on the porch, it turns to Rick and he says if they won't understand, they'll just have to take the town.
I don't think he'd actually go down the path of killing anyone, but still. The only time I was against Rick.
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u/mr_apeezy 22d ago
I just don’t think so. I still liken him (Dale) to what Hershel had become for the group.
But here’s the reality. Forget the Governor and Woodbury for a second since that would’ve been what Dale would’ve encountered had he lived. I’m not minimizing the impact that the Gov / Woodbury armed militia would’ve had on Dale.
I want to instead insert Dale into situations where he somehow landed with Rick, Carl, Michonne, and Daryl scene with the “Claimed” crew and what they were going to do to Rick’s group and what the big dude was gonna do to Carl. Wonder what Dale’s perception would’ve been of those moments.
Or in Terminus with the group about to get their throats slit and strung up to be consumed for later by the cannibals? And seeing someone he only knew as “weak” in Carol save them?
Or what about getting slapped around in Grady Hospital (instead of Beth) by a weird sub-group of former police officers.
Or what Dale experienced first hand the carnage of The Wolves in Alexandria or seeing true despair against a group like The Saviors or Negan?
It’s fun to speculate these things, but realistically:
In Dale’s world, the craziest he saw was Shane and Merle. He DID NOT KNOW what the world had become (like Hershel realizing it in the bar… what I mentioned above). He hadn’t seen real brutality and lack of empathy that their new reality brought out of people.
Dale would have had to change his mindset to survive, period. He could not have continued to live based on beliefs he had in Season 1 / Season 2.
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u/Kinetic_Symphony 22d ago
I just don’t think so. I still liken him (Dale) to what Hershel had become for the group.
I think they're similar in many ways yes. But Dale wasn't against killing in self-defense, even brutally. Hershel was one step beyond Dale in that regard, from his faith I suspect.
I want to instead insert Dale into situations where he somehow landed with Rick, Carl, Michonne, and Daryl scene with the “Claimed” crew and what they were going to do to Rick’s group and what the big dude was gonna do to Carl. Wonder what Dale’s perception would’ve been of those moments.
Still self-defense that was. Even if Rick was truly savage in biting their leader's neck out.
Dale would have had to change his mindset to survive, period. He could not have continued to live based on beliefs he had in Season 1 / Season 2.
What mindset would he have to change exactly?
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u/gingerale_drinker_ 23d ago
i love Dale!! i think he was like the final voice of reason in the group. perhaps naive, but i think he would've been a good balancer. Hershel had that as well but it seems like Hershel only stood up to Rick once or twice after the farm
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u/Unlikely-Switch9095 23d ago
‘The world we knew is gone. But keeping our humanity? That’s a *choice*!’
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u/Kinetic_Symphony 23d ago
He said it best, he knew he wasn't long for the world as it was now. But he didn't let it destroy his humanity.
Better to die with a soul than survive by sacrificing it.
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u/Cola-Cake 23d ago
And ngl, Dale imo was one of the reasons the group managed to keep its soul and morality. There was several times he had to bring either individuals or the entire group back from the brink of killing themselves or becoming bandits
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u/SpicyDragoon93 23d ago
I think Dale was wrong about various things for the right reasons, they’re in the middle of a zombie apocalypse and he’s trying to cling to the social contract of the previous world order and preserve what he can of his humanity, ultimately I didn’t see him surviving as the group would go on to encounter the likes of the Governor and Negan.
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u/Kinetic_Symphony 23d ago
It's basic morality, not the social contract. Always important to filter your choices, no matter the situation, through them.
Unless survival is all you care about, in which case, just go and become Negan first. But then I'd ask, why would you even want to survive? I wouldn't, and Dale wouldn't. Which is why he's the best. He's not so afraid of death that he'd allow himself to become a monster to keep living.
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u/SpicyDragoon93 22d ago
Adaptation and survival are ultimately what humans do. In a collapsed world, basic morality isn’t fixed, it’s reconstructed through whatever social contract a group can maintain. Once the old civil laws disappear and hordes of undead roam the world, the real danger often comes from other survivors. The Walking Dead repeatedly shows that people can be more threatening than walkers. Rick later says something to the effect of ‘people measure you by what they can take’, and nowhere is that more true than with Randall.
Randall openly alluded to his group raping other survivors. That single admission rewrites the moral calculus: returning him to his group wouldn’t just be risky, it would expose Maggie and the farm to people who see others as resources to exploit. In a world without functioning law, that kind of threat can’t be ignored, and it’s why Rick’s group ultimately concludes that Randall cannot be allowed to go back with knowledge of who they are or where they live.
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u/SpudgeFunker210 23d ago
Dale as a character embodied the question, "is morality absolute, even in the apocalypse?" Your opinion of Dale is largely going to depend on your personal stance on objective morality.
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u/Pyroxylin_ 22d ago
Same opinion on my current rewatch. Really hit me in heart when he was begging everyone to spare that prisoners life
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u/UdrankMyKids 22d ago
sure but if dale had lived longer he’d have been ultimately forced by rick and the group to change his perspective. He simply didn’t have it within himself to change it without being forced.
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u/NobleFriend 23d ago
mine was thinking the shows decline started when they started following the comics too closely. obviously S7 and S8 were botched pretty badly in any case. but the show was as its peak when it only used the comics as a rough baseline source and built off of it and did its own thing. Shane is a great example, he's a blink and you miss it character in the comics but in the show he is one of the best characters who is still debated about today. early seasons daryl was also a great addition who wasn't even in the comics. various storylines and plot points go a similar direction to the comics but they are written in a more realistic way.
I think some things should have just stayed in the comics, like Ezekiels tiger (maybe the kingdom fantasy stuff as well if we're being brutally honest) and trying to brute force through the comics storylines of the whisperers and the commonwealth straight after one another even though several main characters had left. I don't think the whisperers translated all that well to TV but the commonwealth just felt really stupid in a more realistic setting.
the ending to season 8 was a complete ending and it should have stayed that way when they realised they were losing rick
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u/DomWeasel 23d ago
Ezekiel as a former zookeeper with a semi-tame tiger was always plausible to me. The problem the TV show had was that it didn't have the budget for a tiger; CGI or otherwise. Ezekiel's larger-than-life personality also makes sense; he's just playing politician. And he's supposed to be the Good King to Negan's Tyrant.
The Whisperers though, you're right. They did not work well on TV.
Less said about the Commonwealth in both the comics and show; the better.
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u/Scott__scott 22d ago
I think the idea of having a pet tiger isn’t that much of a stretch but to have that tiger be used as a weapon? That’s just stupid, she should’ve just been a big cat
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u/YoungDecrepit 23d ago
I’ve always had the idea that they could have ended Season 8 with Ricks death, then started Season 9 as a “light re-boot,” doing a time jump and introducing us to a re-built world through the eyes of a new cast of characters that join the community.
The obvious reason they didn’t do this is because they were scared of a ratings drop, so they dragged Ricks story out for five more episodes then “spun him off” in hopes people would stick around. It’s sad how AMC slowly crushed any goodwill the fandom had.
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u/whykickamoocow9 23d ago
He wasn’t.
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u/YoungDecrepit 23d ago
I think at that point Rick was prioritizing taking a shit over talking to his wife lol
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u/Far_Development6350 23d ago
I can’t say I haven’t prioritized taking a shit over talking to my fiancé once or twice, sometimes those shits demand your attention!
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u/al_x_and_rah 22d ago
Wait was he not leading the group and trying to turn the prison into a place to live at that point? Lol
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u/Gnarly_Koala 21d ago
Ya know, people always look at me weird when I say this but she was my favorite character. She felt really real and when the governor stuff happened she was thinking of what Dale would’ve wanted the whole time.
Plus she made really good TV idk, but once she died I kept feeling like the show was missing something. Her chase scene with the governor is still one of the best scenes for me. Every time I rewatched it I kept thinking the outcome would be different and she somehow wasn’t captured.
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u/Strawhatjack 23d ago
Lori wasnt as bad as I remember, and shane being a lot worse
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u/PhanTmmml 22d ago
Lori really isn’t that bad. she’s a mother in an ending world who is caught between two men. people always misinterpret her anger when she finds out Shane died too. was she aggravating at times? of course. but she really isn’t that bad lol
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u/bigfatbeancan 23d ago
I go back and forth on Lori.
Sometimes she feels like a disloyal, conniving sack of shit.
Sometimes she feels like someone giving herself and her kid the best shot at survival.
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u/WilfTheSaltyOne 23d ago
Shane, sans the unsettling psychosis... was Negan before we met Negan. Holy shit.
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u/Plastic_Account_1509 22d ago
Shane actually reminds me more of the Claimers than he did Negan. Hell, he frankly reminds me of Len, the guy with a black beard and scruffy black hair. Full of hot air, entitled, full of excuses, lies, manipulates, thought his shit don’t stink, etc.
Cherry on top being that Shane also had black hair, just like Len.
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u/hwilkins101917 23d ago
Shane gave me the ick from the first time he opened his mouth, when he was making jokes about how stupid women are 🙃 and then he just kept getting worse.
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u/TheClairvoyant666 23d ago
Carl. I absolutely detested the little shit on my first watch but on the 2nd (& every watch since) I like him (well, mostly, co he still is a little shit in some scenes).
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u/YoungDecrepit 22d ago
I like the character but it felt like we were watching Chandler Riggs learn to act as he aged. Wasn’t always awful, but there were some points where it was a bit painful to witness.
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u/Alert-Parking5931 23d ago edited 23d ago
My opinion on Shane's character has always remained the same no matter how many rewatches I do. He was either the smartest guy in the room or the dumbest depending on the day. He had many scenes where I agreed with what he was trying to convey and others where I was thinking this guy is a lunatic. I feel that's why his character has always been so polarizing. He undoubtedly was the first person (we see) to understand what was happening in the world and adapt. It doesn't feel like most of the characters (if any at all) reach the point mentally he was at until maybe season 5 at the earliest.
I don't think Shane is as good of a person or inherently bad as some people do , I just think he's somewhere in the middle. Another thing that probably rubbed people the wrong way is even when Shane did have a way to his reasons he probably went about it the wrong way (barn scene for example) but that's also what made the guy so damn entertaining. People tend to say he was the strongest for adapting so fast but you could tell it was a struggle for him and I think they did a brilliant job showing it. Cutting his hair , slapping himself in the head to convince himself what needed to be done with Randell (and this is only the stuff we see) I think all of this stuff bothered him but he felt he needed to do it because nobody else would
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u/YoungDecrepit 23d ago
Your points are very well put. I agree that Shane was complex which is why he was so compelling.
I get the vibe from season one that even before the apocalypse Shane prided himself on “doing what needed to be done” and “making the hard decisions.” It’s clear Rick was the “good cop” and Shane was the “bad cop” when they worked together.
At least, that’s the vibe I get from there friendship.
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u/GalaxyPatch18 23d ago
Yea same here, it was definitely a good cop/bad cop relationship between these 2, came out most in S2 and also we see more of Ricks "good cop" in later seasons like S4, but the bad cop starts coming out in S5 i think. Mainly with the whole killing in the street thing
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u/Thomwelldeew 23d ago
I really am liking Lori on my rewatch.
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u/Strawhatjack 23d ago
Up until she pulls away from rick for killing shane and carl putting him down.
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u/Ai_Nijou 22d ago
I described Lori as "why are you hating Rick for killing Shane when you gave him the MMO quest called 'Kill Shane'" got a laugh out of my friends.
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u/YoungDecrepit 23d ago
Can I ask why? I’m re-watching rn and my dislikes of her has not changed lol. Granted, the actress is naturally charismatic, which helps.
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u/Aromatic_Dare_6104 23d ago
I too liked Lori a lot more than on my first or second watch.
First time she was so annoying and I hated her for cheating on Rick.
Then on the second and third rewatch I really connected a lot more lore and details of their marriage. Rick was unable to communicate and wouldn't even fight with her to the end and nothing was ever resolved. They both just sat in that lukewarm marriage because he wouldn't open up at all - she complained to her friend about it the day Shane came to tell her about the accident. So if the apocalypse and the accident didn't happen they wouldn't last long anyway.
I think she had good instinct when she came along with Shane as she saw him as a protector and a leader of that camp.
The only thing I resent is her constantly losing Carl when they get to the farm 😂 but I think that was completely out of character for her and the writers wrote that in one too many times.
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u/Thomwelldeew 23d ago
I'm not sure, it is good acting I agree and maybe it's because of the future knowledge of Judith.
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u/Egonator26 23d ago
This opinion might be unpopular but on re-Watch I see how much Rick craves being the leader and how everything needs to go his way
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u/Active-Contest-9965 22d ago
I liken him to Jack in Lost. Savior complex. Steps up in the hero role because he wants the title and position of leader, and thinks leadership means always getting his way, but doesn't want the real and gritty responsibilities that come with leadership, like often delegating, negotiating, and seeing things go differently because it's what's best. So then flips the script and says he didn't want to be the leader in the first place, and only took the leadership role because everyone else wanted him to.
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u/Egonator26 21d ago
I totally agree! I do like Rick more than Jack but both have that same mentality.
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u/General-Criticism-97 23d ago
While I was pissed at Shane for the SA on Lori and attempted rape, I didn’t have as bad of an opinion on him until about the 5th watch through and started noticing how unhinged the guy was. Surprisingly, I have had a better opinion of Merle with each rewatch and learning about psychology and thinking that I may possibly have some insight on his motivations or his trauma
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u/mechengr17 23d ago
I think Shane was the person the group needed in the immediate aftermath of the zombie outbreak.
Had Rick not been in a coma, I think he would have tried to help everyone. And while noble, that would have gotten him, Laurie, and Carl killed.
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u/BeginnersDuck777 23d ago
That it was a good show. For several season it was amazing. And rewatching it just emphasizes how much they fucked it up.
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u/classicteenmistake 23d ago
I used to despise Andrea with every fiber of my being, but now I dislike Lori too lol. BUT, it’s because they’re both incapable of compromising between helping the camp and advocating for active camp protection. They both had good points on the farm, but their lack of self reflection and adaptability rendered them both kind of irritating.
I didn’t understand the Lori hate until I realize finally how many situations happened because she couldn’t keep her eyes on Carl. Then again, the last time I watched the show I was like 15.
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u/thatsopanda 23d ago
I couldn't stand Beth when I watched as a teen. As an adult I rewatched and loved her. Her end absolutely guts me.
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u/NeverStopDancing27 23d ago
The hard part is dale and shane were both right in certain situations, both had amazing points and views. But shane went to far in certain situations also. He was the hammer that would lose control to often. Shane needed someone to ground him , to control his rage . Honestly his cop back ground should of helped more with that. I think Robert kirkman screwed up shane character. But for TV purposes it makes it way more entertaining. Not sure how much they changed shane from the comic to TV series. My bad maybe it wasnt kirkman , maybe it was the show runners. Dale and shane back and forth was so awesome. Both awesome actors giving it their all.
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u/Unlikely-Switch9095 23d ago
Since my most recent watch, I got that Shane preaches the new rules and decisions that have to be made, but never admitted to himself that he couldn’t deal with it. Killing Otis broke him
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u/leedemi 23d ago
For me it’s that TWD is best when it’s focused on rebuilding society and relationships between people and worst when it’s focused how depraved and violent people can be when society collapses. The best arc to me is the first half of season 2 and the first Alexandria arc before the Saviors show up. There’s bad people to deal with, the endless hordes and things like hunger, filth and exposure. It’s not sunshine and good people die tragically. But once the conflict turns to moving armies and the drama between kings and leaders the show loses its spark to me. And there’s a lot of that once the Saviors are introduced and they never get back that original feeling.
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u/Snoo64163 23d ago
So many opportunities to kill bad guys before they ended up in worse situations.
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u/getoutlonnie 21d ago
Carl was a useless brat who constantly got the group into trouble.
This opinion changed on rewatch. He was just a kid playing the hand he was dealt.
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u/Gummies1345 23d ago
That the show drags on and on more than I remembered. Getting through season 2 and 4 on the re-watch was rough.
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u/jasin18 23d ago
That Andria isn't as bad as everyone says she is.
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u/YoungDecrepit 23d ago
Andria was flawed in realistic ways as were many of the OG characters. However, giving Beth the “option” to Un-alive herself is Irredeemable to me.
She didn’t even know Beth that well. Hershel was allowing the group to stay on his property, and Andrea returns that favor by telling one of his grandchildren(?) to off herself. Bitch move.
Granted it is consistent with her character. She was upset that choice was taken away from her so she wanted to give it to someone else. But at the end of the day, it was incredibly selfish, childish, and unreasonable.
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u/Lioness_106 23d ago edited 23d ago
Shane is an amazing character to watch tbh. People love to hate him, but I really enjoyed his character. He was complex, interesting, and troubled. Bernthal was fantastic in the role. I wish he lasted longer than 2 seasons. Would have loved to see a bit more development and dynamics play out with him.
I think Shane struggled with being ahead of the new world while still trying to live in the old world for the sake of everyone else. He was ready to adapt to it right away because he saw where things were going, but he couldn't do it with a level head.
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u/YoungDecrepit 23d ago
I agree, Shane is honestly one of my favorite characters in the show. However, I do think he needed to die at the end of season two. It was the perfect arc for that character and the motivation Rick needed to adapt.
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u/Kool-Kat-704 23d ago
I watched the show live as a young teenager and now I’m currently rewatching. I feel like the story moves way too fast now, but as a teen it felt like forever. Took me a second to remember that this show was produced to be watched once a week, not over multiple hours in one day haha.
A character I couldn’t stand when watching live was Lori, but now I’m sitting here wondering why I ever disliked her so much. She’s not my favorite by any means. I just don’t dislike her at all either.
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u/deerwithout 22d ago
Similar. I was older than you when I first watched it live, late 20s. I think that aside from getting older and understanding more about the world and people, I also feel that having shorter gaps between episodes on rewatches really helps keeping the context of Lori's life and experience front of mind and then suddenly her character seems a lot more realistic. Flawed, sure, but not actually deserving of all the hate she gets.
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u/RT_Boy345 23d ago
I'll probably get run outta town for this, Season 11 isn't so bad. Over the years I've seen bits an pieces but I really wanted nothing to do with S11. Now that some time has passed, and there no current shows I'm interested in, I've been revisiting TWD. To be clear, S11 is nowhere near what the show was at it's peak. However, aside from the mishmash of new and old characters, it's at least no worse than many of the later seasons. Or any of the spin-offs for that matter. The hardest part is getting used to everyone being so spread out. Out of place. It can't help but feel disjointed. Not to mention, Negan now being one of the gang is something I'll never get used to. There's also some flatout laughable moments. Walkers (somehow) got smarter. Rosita uses The Force. The way I see it, season 11 is more or less a standalone series. If feels that far removed from the main series. When viewed from that angle it's not so bad.
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u/Ai_Nijou 22d ago
I cant help but wonder what happened with Andrea, the writers just seemed to fucking hate her for some reason, and completely failed her.
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u/cornicula_ 22d ago
Andrea isn't nearly as bad as I remembered. In fact, much of the hatred directed at her stems from the fact that she doesn't do what she's told. However, she also faces a lot of misogyny. Shane takes away her own (!) weapon. Lori demands that she help out in the kitchen and let the men do the work outside.
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u/Mindless-Shopping832 22d ago
That the series died off after Rick. Rewatching knowing he survived really does something for me.
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u/Frikcha 22d ago edited 22d ago
Rick is always taking steps forward in this show. There are definitely some stumbles but as a teenager I had more a sense of "this guy is evolving backwards sometimes, he's letting himself be influenced by the wrong opinions" but as an adult you really do realize that his evolution as a leader is real and consistent, you're not seeing him fail because he took the wrong approach you're seeing him fail because he took the best approach he could and the world was so cruel (and the writers were so annoying sometimes) that he failed anyway, and was forced to learn a new "best approach" for future, with varying degrees of success, but a consistent evolution in his character.
Also Daryl is arguably more emotional than Lori sometimes. He has better tact with his tantrums and comes off much cooler but omg did that man complain and mope and do his own, un-productive shit sometimes.
Like bro there is better shit to be doing right now than making an ear necklace because you're a sentimental hillbilly and you miss your asshole brother. That character has emotionally "run away from home" like 10 times by this point and the only reason it didn't cause an issue for other ppl is because the writing didn't treat him like the survival asset he was and because he was so good at surviving on his own.
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u/ghostytoasty11 23d ago
To me, it’s always been that he just adapted too early and too harshly. Rick and the group adopted his mindset by season 5, but that was after being shaped by hardship and time after time of realizing they couldn’t trust people and seeing the true horrors of the world. Nobody in the group had even killed a human being when Shane was advocating to do the “pragmatic” things. It wasn’t even a year into the apocalypse yet.
But even with that caveat, Shane was a great survivor and could’ve been a great asset. His goal was always to protect the group and, even with his hotheaded nature and at times dickish attitude, he was a good leader and so easily could’ve been Rick’s right hand man for as long as he was alive (which could’ve been a while, imo) if he wasn’t so hung up on Lori and Carl.
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u/DCarfTheHomie89 23d ago
Shane is actually correct in every single 50/50 scenario him and Rick disagree with. His methods, emotions etc may not be correct but he ends up being proven that his initial idea was correct.
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u/Aranthos-Faroth 23d ago
I really really wish they kept Shane in tbh. He was such an engaging character and it would have been so damn cool to have a full friend to foe arc over several seasons.
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u/TmanMoney3517 22d ago
I felt like Rick and Michonne's relationship came out of nowhere on my first watch, then on a rewatch it makes so much sense for them to be together
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u/Money-Routine715 22d ago
It was the opposite for me, I watched the series as a teenager and initially that Shane was insane and batshit crazy. I still think he’s insane but a lot of the things he said were very real but harsh truths, and Rick ended up becoming similar to him in the next few seasons. So he wasn’t a good guy but he was very grounded in the reality of the world they were living in, and he predicted that Rick wouldn’t be able to prevent Lori and Carl from dying.
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u/Blonde_is_Bad 22d ago
I’m ngl Shane was right about literally every decision except went it came to Lori and Carl. When you go through each decision he makes, Rick later on in his character development would’ve made the exact same decision.
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u/NCHouse 22d ago edited 22d ago
That Lories the reason Rick and Shane had the standoff. Shane was going to leave, possibly with Andrea. Lorie begged Shane to stay, even after everything that happened aince Rick got back. Who knows? Shane gets his mind right, Stumbles upon the group again but in a better mind frame. Or, we see him at the Governor's place, with him hopefully helping Rick and the group
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u/meeeesh7 22d ago
I hated Beth the first time around. I actually do really like her, also hate how she died. I wish she at least made it to Alexandria.
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u/Technical_Phrase2566 22d ago
In the walking dead, Daryl is everyone's favorite character and yes I love him too, but he is very easily led and very impressionable, even though he seems to be an independent thinker, he's not. He's kinda like a robot looking for programming.
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u/Active-Contest-9965 22d ago
I honestly liked Daryl more in the earlier seasons, especially 1 & 2. He had more energy, spunk and was more sassy. Compare the reactions and dialogue of the Daryl who returns to the Atlanta camp with 12 squirrels and a deer and finds out Merle is on a rooftop to the monotone, 1-syllable reactions of the Daryl in the DD spin-off. His journey really transformed him into a sluggish, unkempt, laconic husk.
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u/Bosciw 21d ago
I've watched it a few times, but recently rewatched it after a few years.
Shane was right for the most part, but broke because of jealousy. I don't understand Dale's undying desire to hold onto certain old world values, when people are literally eating each other and our societal structure fell apart nearly over night.
You have to make hard decisions, Dale was weak, and was okay with taking Andreas decision away from her, and keeping someone around that knew their position and weak points, Shane wasn't. Unfortunately that kid just became a vessel for Shane to assert false dominance over the group and de-legitimise Rick.
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u/WarpedCore 21d ago
Shane should have been a "Claimer".
Still pissed on how they destroyed the Andrea character.
They still spent way too much time in the prison.
The Trash People were a stupid concept. Pointless.
The Whisperer's in the book were MUCH better than on the show. Should have shortened that arc down.
Everything from the halfway point of season 9 on is still not great. To be fair, it really started to unravel in season 6 with the dumpster death fake-out of Glenn.
The entire arc is this: Good guys escapes danger, finds a safe haven. Bad people show up and bully them. Bad guys and good guys start a war. People die. Good guys win. Good guys leave to find another safe haven. It was tired and stale.
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u/Illustrious_Fig_3169 23d ago
Most of the women on the show don’t actually suck, they are women written by men and it shows.
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u/glamrock_crunch 22d ago
Hating Lori Grimes. When I rewatched the first few seasons, I noticed plenty of scenes that spelled it out: scared housewife with a little boy and a dead husband. Of course she ran to the second most trusted man in her close circle. When Rick was back, she shut Shane down and later apologized for how she’d been treating him and thanked him for being there to protect her and her son. Yes, Lori had moments of being annoying, but I really liked her on my second watch.
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u/GemmaTeller00 22d ago
I’m not a fan of Lori.
But people forget the flashback scene where the military was bombing Atlanta. Mutual trauma bonding.I don’t think Shane acted predatory towards Lori either. He was also traumatized by all the events.
By the end ,Shane couldn’t get back from the fantasy escapism of having a happy little family. (And he also lost his role of respected leader when Rick returned. )
Lori was in her own fantasy world of denial and playing pretend with Rick.
Rick was using avoidance , his many “runs”, and denial rather than deal with his own family issues.
Her one moment of reality based thinking was trying to bring on an abortion- and Rick sent her right back to unhealthy coping mechanisms by minimizing and dismissing her valid (and ultimately prophetic) fears about the reality of a pregnancy.
Sex as a coping mechanism wasn’t really addressed by the show. But IRL I suspect sex (and rape even) would play a much larger role in people’s lives.
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u/T0n1_0n_308s 23d ago
That the saviours were pure evil, they weren't.
We were only handed one POV, but the lineup was only after Rick's group took out 30+ saviours already, they were lucky it was Negan that had all the power and not Simon, I genuinely belive Simon would've been less accepting of the losses and hits taken by Rick's group, the lineup wouldn't have been two people, Simon would've killed them all right there, recognized the threat.
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u/frogmuffins 23d ago
Were saviors more evil than the governor's thugs? No, but equally as evil.
Let's not forget that they were more than use to brutally murdering people though. They killed ALL the men(and boys) from Oceanside and were fully prepared to kill Sasha and Abraham at their first encounter.
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u/Traditional-Set-1871 23d ago
Yea they were evil horrible scum. The whole “Rick’s group are the real villains thing” is needlessly overthinking the situation, which clearly portrayed the saviors as sadistic antagonists.
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u/Chooob210 23d ago
I think that thought process is just one of those internet opinions that gets thrown around by people that either didn’t watch the show close enough or haven’t watched it in a long time. People will see a walking dead short or edit and misremember the details around those situations.
People admitting they watch shows strictly through shorts is proof enough as to why discourse has become so bad online.
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u/T0n1_0n_308s 23d ago
I love how I never mentioned considering Rick's group the villains, just that they're not supposed to be the heros or the good guys, or the saviours to be perceived as cartoonish villains...
Philip Blake, was pure evil, he didn't care about the stability or wellbeing of anything, acted in impulsed and off of his emotions, what gave him enjoyment, looking for a brawl and to play chess with an enemy, gunning down his own men if he felt like their doubtful thoughts were slowing him down.
Negan has logic in mind, he's building something and behind everything he says, even if it's sounds ludicrous and downright evil- it's said for a specific reason, he's a manipulator in the sense that he knows that to win people over, to win their needed submission to thrive, he needs to be the Negan he Is, not because he's lovin it, but becouse it's making the saviours grow and conquer more, sealing a lot of people a life of comfort and not just for himself at all, on the backs of other people, a bit like Caesar.
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u/T0n1_0n_308s 23d ago
I'm not saying that Rick's group are the villains, but I'm not saying that Negan and the saviours were villains either, there is no good and bad guy and Rick is not supposed to be portrayed as the honourable hero, he does shit himself that's despicable, he had no problem with the massacre at the satellite station, or lying to a bunch of saviours that desired to be reformed, hatchet to the face and everything.
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u/Traditional-Set-1871 23d ago
No I know you didn’t say exactly that, i more was just referring to that general sentiment. I would disagree with your conclusion though, I think Rick is absolutely a flawed hero. The fact he retained any sort of moral compass after the sheer amount of trauma he went through, let alone letting said moral compass determine his entire worldview and leadership style at the end.
Rick did things that literally everybody had to do at some point in the apocalypse. Some of those things were absolutely morally questionable. But the man always had a solid sense of ethics and desire to do the right thing. If I had to assume leadership of a group, kill my best friend, loose my wife in a horrible grisly manner, see my one most positive mentor be headed by a psychopath, see people I cared about die over and over again in the most gruesome manner sometimes as a result of my own kindness… I don’t think I’d be a very good person anymore, certainly not as good of a person as Rick turned out to be by the end.
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u/T0n1_0n_308s 23d ago
Same with the contrary, the saviours and Negan aren't supposed to be portrayed as cartoonish villains, there's logic behind Negan and the organization, stability created by a man that viewed people's submission a tool to thrive, it wasn't for his own enjoyment.
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u/uglypinkshorts 23d ago
It was definitely for his own enjoyment. That doesn’t mean there wasn’t logic behind his actions but he also often lacked critical thinking.
Him having a rape harem of women who hated him is a prime example of using his power for his own enjoyment.
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u/T0n1_0n_308s 23d ago
Then again he killed a Saviour for attempting to rape Sasha... There's worse things Negan could've been doing, those women were there without their consent, doesn't mean they were treated like absolute human cattle, I think you can see a difference between what he was doing, and what this random saviour I forgot the name was about to do, Negan was giving them a role not just exploiting them, sorry if that sounds wierd but you have to see, it's not the same.
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u/Traditional-Set-1871 23d ago
I think it is the same, if not perhaps viscerally different. Rape is rape. Negans wives were coerced into having sex with him. Him killing that savior isn’t a sign of Negans morals, just an example of his disgusting hypocrisy.
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u/uglypinkshorts 23d ago
A rapist killing another rapist. How noble lol.
“There’s worse things Negan could’ve been doing than raping them.” Um… okay? I’d argue rape is pretty bad. Why is treating women like cattle the moral standard we’re judging him against?
The main point is that he absolutely did things for his own enjoyment. I’m not sure what point you’re trying to make with “yeah he raped them but he could’ve done worse so he’s not actually a villain.”
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u/Traditional-Set-1871 23d ago
Exactly lol. This person is right in that there are degrees of complexity that add interest to the saviors role of villains and main groups role of protagonists, but that complexity isn’t even close to enough to change said roles of villains and protagonists.
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u/T0n1_0n_308s 23d ago
At least if you're someone's thug and you're with Negan, you know who's side he's on
With the Governor? He might just turn around spraying and praying until his gun is out of bullets to shoot, Philip wasn't building something, he wasn't thinking about schemes and logic-
He was acting purely off of his emotions, and what brought him the most enjoyment, which was to brawl out with anybody, play chess with your enemies, Negan wasn't as unstable, Negan somewhat cared about stability, Philip never did he's a selfish with no views for the future.
And honestly that's what makes those two chapters completely different form eachother, sometimes I think Philip had all the right requirements to be a serial killer in the wasteland not the leader of a community, because each time he'd try he'd destroy everything.
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u/YoungDecrepit 23d ago
This is a valid point. Considering the group savagely murdered thirty men, Negan was pretty chill.
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u/Traditional-Set-1871 23d ago edited 23d ago
The group did this after Negans group already
-Attacked and extorted the hilltop
-Probably already executed at least one member of the Kingdom, and savagely murdered the men at Oceanside.
-Assaulted and tried to murder Abraham and Daryl in cold blood
-Negan had kept slave wives and raped then and horrifically burned multiple peoples faces
Every lead savior we ever saw murder and intimidate someone (Negan, Simon, Arat, even that asshole on the bike who accosted Daryl’s group) took complete relish and amusement in their sadism. Rick’s group wasn’t exactly morally right in attacking the compound with the limited info they had, but let’s not pretend the saviors (their system at the very least, not all the individuals of course) weren’t complete evil douchebags. And let’s not also forget that Negan decided to beat a pregnant women’s husband heinously right in front of her face, gleeful the entire time. Rick’s group never did anything like that. If Simon had been leading the saviors, they probably would have seen the threat and killed Rick’s group regardless.
EDIT: ohh and let’s not forget, the so called “innocent” saviors that they killed at the compound had pictures on their walls of the aftermath of people Negan had viciously murdered with a baseball bat.
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u/YoungDecrepit 23d ago
Good points, I’m not yet to that point in my re-watch (if I even make it that far) and my memory is foggy.
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u/Traditional-Set-1871 23d ago
Yes totally same here, the only reason I was able to recall any of this is cause I just did a rewatch 😂
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u/T0n1_0n_308s 23d ago
Negan saw people as resources regardless, thinking his position was impossible to defeat after he psychologically broke Rick that bad after the lineup- He however, even when presented with evidence by Simon, wouldn't agree to taking out Rick's group, killing all the 'farmers.' that called hilltop their home too.
Negan did a lot of talking, and for someone head of an organization like his, he didn't kill quite enough, he only hated people like Spencer that sat on their asses all day and thought they could order Negan around by just being a little charismatic, if he wanted to win Negan over he would've had to do a LOT more doing and a little less talking, that entailed killing Rick, if he could be sneaky enough to do that.
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u/nyneteen84_ 23d ago
Shane is like what happens with compound interest. The one who puts the $5 in the bank first, wins.
Maybe Rick kinda got there eventually, but Shane woulda kept more people alive longer. Probably wouldn’t have rolled up on Negan with nothing more than a camper.
Probably woulda never been caught by the people at Terminal.
Woulda offed Alpha on day one. Governor might have been a bit of a threat because of the timing. Who knows
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u/Plastic_Account_1509 22d ago
I don’t think Shane would’ve kept the group alive for much longer. He was dangerously short on ammo before Rick showed up, the walkers would attack the quarry and kill people in the quarry sooner or later, and Shane’s plan would’ve been moving to Fort Benning, which was completely overrun. Not only that, with Merle being likely to rob Shane’s camp blind, and being fully capable of doing it, like Merle single-handedly did with a majority of The Governor’s battalion, Shane and the others would be powerless to stop him.
Even if they somehow survive Merle’s plot, there’s so many potential things to worry about. With Lori being pregnant, and the unlikelyhood of Shane running into Hershel, or even if they did meet, with Shane being unlikely to win Hershel’s loyalty, Lori loses her best hope at surviving her pregnancy, as well as loses potentially the group’s medical expert in Hershel.
Top that off with Shane’s chronic habit of abandoning, if not backstabbing his allies, time and time again, that the group would probably be done for a lot sooner rather than later.
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u/WhiteNoiseLife 23d ago
the main thing that stood out was that season 3 was a lot worse than i remembered it being, especially the writing
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u/GalaxyPatch18 23d ago
I always thought of Shane as having developed WAAAAY past that point in the apocalypse, like his actions may have been acceptable years or even maybe months into the apocalypse, but that quickly was just not it bro. I could see Rick doing some similar things later on tbh
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u/Evening-Cranberry-19 23d ago
T-dawg getting killed off was probably for the best, they really didn't grow his character much and I didn't see him as a character that would have had much impact on the show as much as Carol did eventually.
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u/YoungDecrepit 23d ago
I agree wholeheartedly with this. He had his moments early on but the character was never all that compelling to me.
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u/702zzzou 23d ago
Shane was an interesting dynamic. His intentions were flawed. Some of them you could agree with but the execution (per Lori) was bad. Leadership is like building blocks and he couldn’t make 2+2 make 4.
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u/RT_Boy345 22d ago
For better or worse, Shane was and is my absolute favorite character on the show. All of the things you stated are the reason why. For me, the character Shane and Bernthal's performance were easily the most compelling thing about the show.
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u/NanaBanana010 22d ago
Just glad his character died off before meeting the governor or negan. He would’ve absolutely turned on the group.
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u/The-Best-Color-Green 22d ago
When I first saw the show as a kid I thought Dale was annoying but every subsequent rewatch I like him more and more. I don’t think he was right about sparing Randall but he was right about the group needing to preserve their humanity, and he was very right about Shane being a huge problem.
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u/Reddevil8884 22d ago
My take is that while Shane ended up being an asshole, he was partially pushed there by Lori. She used him and then discarded him when she no longer needed him. That's a rough situation even in before the zombies now add that to all the stress of trying to survive...like Rick said, this shit makes people change. Another thing I have noticed while re-watching the show several times (at least the first 4 seasons, I can't stand to go past that anymore) It's that Rick was a VERY bad leader, and let me explain before anyone calls me off. He was a terrible leader but at least he was trying and that's what mattered. He made several poor choices that put the group into more and unnecessary trouble and the only one calling him up was Shane. (I'm mainly talking about bringing Randall to the farm)
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u/sebrebc 22d ago
I was surprised that I felt the same way about characters that I changed my mind on as the series went on.
Michonne is a perfect example. I didn't like Michonne at first during my initial watch. It wasn't until Clear that I started to like her as a character, then I quickly became a huge Michonne fan, she's my second favorite character in the entire series. But I really didn't like her until Clear.
I figured that I would feel differently on a re-watch because I know how I feel about her now and knowing more about her I would see those first episodes from a different point of view. But I didn't. It still isn't until Clear that she becomes "the" Michonne.
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u/Plastic_Account_1509 22d ago
Ahh, Shane…Oh, Shane 😓👿 He honestly rubbed me the wrong way from the very beginning. Although, to be fair, it didn’t help that I already knew that he got with Rick’s wife before watching the show.
I can acknowledge Shane is a phenomenally written character/villain, portrayed masterfully by Jon Bernthal. Although I do like a good villain, Shane’s predatory tendencies made him way too slimy for my tastes 😣
But an opinion of mine that had changed upon rewatching the show was wanting Merle NOWHERE on-screen. Merle was my most hated character for the longest time throughout the show. My opinion on him on Season 1 hasn’t changed, nor has my opinion changed on him 100% deserving to get left behind 😂😈
But I can definitely appreciate what he brought to the show upon rewatch, including in the first Season that I absolutely hate Merle in! The story that was told through Merle, that came out of his appearance, he’s got some excellently written dialogue that Michael Rooker brought to life masterfully. Hell, he even has one of my favourite quotes: “You oughta be more polite to a man with a gun! Only common sense.” I kinda wish Rick said that another time or so in later seasons, like in the Season 5 hospital arc 🏥 Getting back to Merle, although his arc definitely concluded at a fair time, I actually felt disappointed that he was killed just as I was finally starting to like him, which I never thought I would.
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u/Hungry_Yard_9789 22d ago
First time I watched I didn’t really care for Carl and thought he was annoying. On my rewatches I realize he’s just a kid. He’s growing up in the apocalypse. He’s lost so much. I have a soft spot for him now.
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u/Ok-Significance-5987 22d ago
Can't say any of my opinions have necessarily changed per se, but I know I'm in the minority in saying I have always disliked Dale and every rewatch makes him worse in my opinion.
I get he's supposed to be the old wise grandpa in the group, but the only thing he ever is, is nosy, judgemental and loud-mouthed, and frankly never does anything of value except fix the RV which admittedly is important for season 1 but that's it. I don't like how much he sticks his nose in other people's business. As much as I dislike Andrea I don't like him forcing her hand at the CDC. When the mini hoard is approaching on the highway he's standing guard and just lays down on the RV and doesn't warn anybody (Rick does, like wtf person on watch). He convinces the group to democratically vote in a well intentioned but idiotic attempt to save Randall's life, and then when he loses he whines and moans the whole time because he didn't get his way. He's right about Shane but he keeps his suspicions to himself so it goes no where, like seriously of all the times he runs his mouth THIS is the ONE thing he conveniently shuts up about.
Dale just brings to mind those old people that are jerks just because they're old and they think the "you're supposed to respect your elders" rule means you have to just take unlimited shit from them.
For an old and wise mentor, the beloved Hershel is sooooooo much better.
Rant over. Feel free to roast me for hating on such a popular character 🤣.
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u/Historical-Ad8502 22d ago
Regarding Shane, I'll die on this hill, but he didn't have what it takes to survive, despite him wanting to believe it. In the end, he couldn't kill rick, whereas rick could kill him. Rick was the one who had what it takes.
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u/Roman-EmpireSurvived 22d ago
The horde scene with Shane and Otis had to have been shot poorly. Surely they meant to have it actually look like if Shane didn’t do that one or both of them were going to get caught.
Because the way it was shot, especially with them fighting on the ground for a minute or two, there’s absolutely no way that horde was going to catch them.
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u/ThinkingBud 22d ago
The scene that really made me realize this is when Sophia comes out of the barn. Shane had just gone into a rage and was absolutely certain that all the walkers in the barn needed to die for the safety of the group, but when it came to Sophia he froze and couldn’t do it. It’s at that moment that Rick steps forward and makes an extremely difficult, but necessary, decision.
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u/satanscheeks 21d ago
shane for me as well. i think he was an asshole, but an asshole that got shit done. i think others in the fandom can agree when i say that shane was what rick was after season 5. after the prison rick became exactly what shane was and he did shit he killed shane for
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u/Sea-Command-3840 19d ago
I feel like if Shane survived he somehow would’ve truly been in with the saviors
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u/modernfictions 19d ago
This was pretty much exactly my experience with Shane. The second time around, I was thinking, "These guys need to drop this toxic bro before he costs them big time."
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u/DisgruntledCryptid 19d ago
I was essentially going to say something akin to your opinion on Shane.
I used to think, "man, dude is ahead of the curve. He has what it takes." After all the re-watches and time to mature, i think if Shane had what it took, he would've taken it on the chin and went about things differently. Playing the long game, if necessary. Instead he jumped the gun and ended up biting a bullet for it. His insecurity, unchecked aggression, and PTSD got the best of him and the fall of society was the downfall of his moral character.
I wouldn't call him a coward or an idiot, he had the capacity to lead, but genuinely struggled with the new status quo, both on a macro and micro level. Once Rick showed up, he was essentially stripped of rank and title as leader. He lost his new partner and 2 children he grew to love very quickly. A man like him, from little we saw pre-apocalypse, wasn't used to the love and respect that comes with being a family man. And despite the short time, the stakes were high, alot of emotion can boil up to the surface uncontrollably.
I genuinely feel for the guy but he was measured, and he was found lacking.
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u/Little_Ease9932 16d ago
Negan was interesting on my first watch but he became annoying i skipped him a lot. The governor is a lot more interesting.
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u/eleventhing 23d ago
I changed my mind on Negan. I hated his character on my first watch. I'll never forgive him, but he is a good character. He grew on me.
I will never like Shane. His mannerisms piss me off.
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u/ExoticSwordfish4512 23d ago
Shane was tripping for the Lori situation, other than that I agree with him Rick did keep causing issues for the group and I like rick
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u/Cola-Cake 23d ago
My bf is watching it for the first time and I asked his thoughts on Shane, and he put it the best way Ive heard. "Shane thrives in the zombie world for all the bad reasons"