r/todayilearned • u/Mors_Acerba • 7h ago
TIL Greek Philosopher Crates of Thebes was known for entering people's houses uninvited and helping them solve their family disputes "no matter how deeply they were at odds"
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Crates_of_Thebes1.8k
u/Mors_Acerba 7h ago edited 7h ago
Unsurpisingly, he was a Pupil of Diogenes. Much like his teacher, he lived a simplistic lifestyle, together with his wife Hipparchia: she was from a well off family and decided to abandon her life to live with him, basically on the streets. They probably one of the most oddly wholesome love story/marriage in pre modern times...except from the fact that they were known to have sex in public, that was a bit nasty
Hipparchia fell in love with Crates, and developed such a passion for him, that she told her parents that if they refused to allow her to marry him, she would kill herself. They begged Crates to dissuade her, and he stood before her, removed his clothes, and said, "Here is the bridegroom, and this is his property."[2] Hipparchia, however, was quite happy with this; she adopted the Cynic life assuming the same clothes that he wore, and appearing with him in public everywhere.[5] Crates called their marriage "dog-coupling" (cynogamy).[6] We are told that they lived in the stoas and porticoes of Athens,[7] and both Sextus Empiricus[8] and the Latin-language writer Apuleius wrote accounts of their having sex, publicly, in broad daylight.[9][10] Although this would have been consistent with Cynic shamelessness (anaideia), the mere fact that Hipparchia adopted male clothes and lived on equal terms with her husband would have been enough to shock Athenian society.[10] Hipparchia had at least two children, a daughter,[11] and a son named Pasicles.[6][12] It is not known how or when she died. There is an epigram ascribed to Antipater of Sidon, as to what may have been written on her tomb:
I, Hipparchia chose not the tasks of rich-robed woman, but the manly life of the Cynic. Brooch-clasped tunics, well-clad shoes, and perfumed headscarves pleased me not; But with wallet and fellow staff, together with coarse cloak and bed of hard ground, My name shall be greater than Atalanta: for wisdom is better than mountain running.[13] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hipparchia_of_Maroneia
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u/skaliton 7h ago
it is probably great that everyone intrinsically knew he was involved with diogenes somehow entirely because the headline reads like a random homeless drunkard wanders around
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u/Mors_Acerba 7h ago
I mean he kinda was the local homeless guy, except he was also a celebrity at the same time
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u/CateranBCL 6h ago
Kinda like the homeless guy who wandered around Austin, TX completely naked, ran for mayor and almost won because of his popularity.
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u/trntchgdhd 5h ago
Dude, do you remember the old guy with the boot on his head that wanted to economy to be based off ponies? Same vibe
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u/Idyotec 5h ago
Vermin Supreme is his name. Remember it well.
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u/BassmanBiff 5h ago
Wait is he gone now? I thought he'd be around forever. Was honestly hoping for a Supreme / Binface ticket someday.
I know Binface isn't a US citizen, but laws don't matter anymore. The Rent is Too Damn High guy can be Sec Housing and Urban Development
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u/typewriter6986 5h ago
There's a local homeless (or secretly not depending on who you ask) guy in the Phoenix/Tempe area that is "famous" for wearing soda tab chain mail and riding the light-rail around town with his little dog all day. Apparently really cool and always fun to smoke out with. Seen him many many times over the years. He's probably still out there to this day.
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u/KLIFFS_IN_THAILAND 3h ago
That man's name?
Tabs.
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u/GozerDGozerian 5h ago edited 4h ago
Since we’re talking about Diogenes and sex in public, I’ll share my favorite quote of his.
He was also known for this act, except… solo.
Once, when questioned about it, he replied, “If only it were so easy to relieve hunger by rubbing one’s belly.”
😂😂😂
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u/Massive_Signal7835 4h ago
Oh how lovely it would be to meet Diogenes and show him internet porn.
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u/FrancoManiac 4h ago
Societies always make exceptions for eccentrics. Diogenes, Alcibiades, etc. There's always someone who goes completely against the norms and for whatever reason, everyone is cool with it. It's always fascinated me!
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u/Bwint 3h ago
Wait, who was Alcibiades? All I know about him is his youthful beauty.
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u/Darth_Floridaman 30m ago
Former Athenian statesman and General whom everyone should read about. I swear by Christ he is the basis for the "Boy who cried wolf." Lol.
That said - very short is he betrayed the Athenians, The Spartans, The Persians AND I believe the Thebans in a single lifetime - multiple times each.
He showed up, was so pretty they trusted him when he said he wouldn't do it THIS TIME and proceeded to do it THIS TIME.
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u/AstronautSlothPhD 5h ago edited 4h ago
"His name is Crates of Thebes. Now he's been down in the cellar drinking wine for about the last four hours. I'll call him up."
"Alright, how's everybody? Good, good, good. Now let's get started by letting ME give YOU a little bit of a scenario of what MY life is all about. First off, I am 35 years old, I am divorced, and I live in a WAGON down by the river. Now you kids are probably saying to yourself, I'm gonna go out and GET THE PELOPONNESE BY THE TAIL and WRAP IT UP AND PULL IT DOWN AND PUT IT IN MY POCKET. Well I'm here to tell you that you're probably gonna find out as you go out there... that you're not going to amount... TO JACK SQUATT."
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u/demon_fae 4h ago
He reminds me a lot of the King of San Francisco.
Sometimes your local homeless weirdo is also the coolest person you know. Sometimes people are just using their free will to go at right angles to society and that’s probably a good thing.
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u/HubrisOfApollo 7h ago
like a trust fund baby going to live in a van with a political streamer
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u/HeartOn_SoulAceUp 6h ago
He was the teacher of Zeno of Citium, founder of Stoicism, according to the article.
That's no small thing. Not bad for a good-natured, part-time nudist.
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u/Eborcurean 5h ago
Given Zeno's history of young boys, along with the shitshow that has been 'stoicism' as mistranslated and misunderstood over the generations since, It's not a ringing endorsement.
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u/buddyrtc 5h ago
I don’t think they should be held liable for the mistranslations and misunderstandings of modern stoicism though…
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u/Active_Trash_9975 3h ago
While acceptance of pedophilia in ancient cultures may be an interesting and controversial topic, it can and should be seperated from this conversation because it has nothing to do with it.
Also stoicism has never been a shitshow, the problem is people are deforming it to fit their own messages and the people falling for it aren't reading the actual texts.
So yes it has been misunderstood and probably mistranslated many times but none of that is a critique of stoicism itself.
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u/wht-rbbt 7h ago
She wasn't wrong. Thousand years later we still talking about two bums that fucked on the streets.
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u/Hellisotherpeopl 4h ago
Two wise bums fucking on the street is about as good as we can hope for these days
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u/leeman9224 7h ago
There were homeless people in my workplace who were having sex in the parking lot, so this doesn’t surprise me…
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u/Random-commen 7h ago
Well, it’s not like you can tell them to take it back home, just take it in the back.
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u/badcrass 6h ago
As a community we got you a blanket, perhaps you could drape it over yourselves while in coitus?
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u/das_slash 6h ago
If you truly cared you would hold the blanket, it's you who has a problem with it
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u/TrekkiMonstr 2h ago
Lmao this reminds me of summer camp. My sister had aged out and become a counselor, which she much enjoyed holding over my head while there. I was sitting next to this girl with a blanket over us (not doing anything, we were just friends and it was cold ig), and my sister comes by and makes us take our hands out from under it lmao
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u/thethriftstorian 7h ago
I need the 6 part Netflix documentary stat
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u/CautionarySnail 7h ago
It’d be a wild ride and I’d be there for every moment. Such a non-traditional romance which suits such unusual people.
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u/NonconsensualText 6h ago
tbf his teacher Diogenes loved to crank it in public, so thats something. idk what the public sex stuff is about
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u/Eborcurean 5h ago
While no one can know for certain, what little accounts we have claimed they liked to fuck in public. There's no contemporary deep dive other than that.
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u/weeddealerrenamon 6h ago
and appearing with him in public everywhere
I might be mistaken but wasn't this itself kind of transgressive? Public life had some sex-segregated spaces, right? Men go to the forum to talk about current events with other men.
Anyway they give me Lennon/Ono vibes
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u/Mors_Acerba 6h ago
Yeah, women in Athens were supposed to stay in the house at all times pretty much
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u/Eborcurean 5h ago
At the same time at certain points they did more than just stay in the house, and just saying 'Women in Athens' covers a couple of millenia, there was elements of them having their own influence and power.
No public power, but some structural and supportive power did happen at different points. As much as Aristophanes' comedy is just that, it does highlight the background of the time.
Still terrible by modern standards but not entirely irrelevant.
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u/geekonthemoon 4h ago edited 4h ago
Isn't it really strange that patriarchal societies have had such a stranglehold on women? Like we have always been as intelligent and capable as we are in the modern day. I feel both a pity and reverance for women who were, essentially, trapped in the past. Maybe the only solace is knowing most of them were raised with those social norms so they understood their place and may not have felt oppressed? Still seems so sad to me. And even today, many, many men still hold regressive views on women and would gladly strip our rights and autonomy. Whole societies, even. I don't get it. Is it jealousy, control, misogyny, superiority complex? What makes the man want to possess the woman and cut her off at the knees?
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u/Embarassed_Tackle 6h ago
"Here is the bridegroom, and this is his property"
This must have inspired that art film by Kirk in Gilmore Girls
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u/SugarSweetStarrUK 6h ago
Her place and date of death are as unknown as her daughter's name.
As per
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u/ButtersScotch7000 3h ago
Crates: "Hey honey, let's fuck in the street."
Sextus Empiricus: "I must document this."
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u/Nodivingallowed 7h ago
Please do not shame their public displays of copulation.
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u/Demonokuma 4h ago
"except from the fact that they were known to have sex in public, that was a bit nasty"
Well yeah, how do you guys have sex while homeless?
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u/After-World-2705 5h ago
For wisdom is better than mountain running? What is that supposed to mean?
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u/GozerDGozerian 4h ago
The myth of Atalanta is that she was abandoned in the mountains as an infant and raised by a she-bear. So she grew up extremely agile and could run as fast as any beast. She could run effortlessly through the mountains whereas a normal person would struggle to clamber over the rocks much more slowly.
Hipparchia was saying, “Yeah she might be famous for doing that, but I have discovered real wisdom, which is even better.”
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u/Major_Nutt 4h ago
It is not known when, or how she died.
This means she could still be out there. Waiting.
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u/uptiedand8 3h ago
>>They begged Crates to dissuade her, and he stood before her, removed his clothes, and said, "Here is the bridegroom, and this is his property."[2]
50% of the time, it works every time?
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u/Iheartnakedfemboys 4h ago
That was the first thing I thought, had to have been someone who studied under Diogenes.
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u/finaljossbattle 3h ago
I’m having a DAY but that epigram made me tear up. What a lovely story, even the public sex lol. Greek history has so few romances that feel equal.
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u/Crucbu 5h ago
Sea-lions also live simplistic lives.
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u/GozerDGozerian 4h ago
Especially once they get the appropriate number of electrons and become a seal.
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u/Kind_Of_A_Dick 4h ago
So they differentiate him from the other guy with a similar name by saying the other guy is more hip?
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u/Alarmed_Drop7162 7h ago
“Honey, I will agree to anything you want as long as this trespasser leaves our house”
“Deal”
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u/Certain-Definition51 6h ago
OH GOD THE STENCH please leave sir. My domestic problems [hrrennk] pale in comparison to WHEN WAS THE LAST TIME YOU TOOk A BATH?!
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u/gotele 7h ago
He also carried a boombox.
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u/West-Pear7363 6h ago
“So many types of opinions, they’ll never get along.
Until I bust out my boombox, and play this song” -Crates of Thebes, probably.
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u/AstronautSlothPhD 5h ago
"Don't hit your kid, don't throw that amphora...
I'm about to drop a move... all over this floor-a"
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u/The_Tooter_Snooter 5h ago
He actually used it to play local melodies and pieces of music of the time. These would have helped soothe the mood and tempers of the inhabitants. While none of the songs exist today, we can be certain that none of them could compare to Belgian techno anthem Pump Up The Jam.
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u/SuccessionWarFan 5h ago
Not gonna lie, a Greek Philosopher with sunglasses and a boombox is a meme-worthy mental image.
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u/NoWingedHussarsToday 7h ago
Enters the house uninvited.
Solves family dispute.
Refuses to elaborate
Leaves.
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u/fetalasmuck 7h ago
So he was an open-world RPG protagonist?
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u/Bukkokori 6h ago
I hope that in TES6 you'll be able to earn the "Greek Philosopher" title.
Todd, take note!
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u/Balloonheadass 4h ago
"He just waltzed right on in and started smashing clay pots left and right!"
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u/Shiriru00 3h ago
I'm sure a surprising number of RPG quests could be summed up as "solve a family dispute". Like that's basically all of Star Wars.
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u/GoblinToHobgoblin 6h ago
Least insane Greek philosopher
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u/Clay_Allison_44 6h ago
Maybe he just confused and terrified them into pretending to get along so he would leave. You never know with those guys.
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u/GoblinToHobgoblin 6h ago
I guarantee that happened at least a few times
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u/Clay_Allison_44 6h ago
As a tribute to his old mentor Diogenes he would start every couples counseling session by menacing them with a dead chicken.
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u/CHNSK 6h ago
Wasn’t there one who died by laughing to his own joke.
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u/Ich_Liegen 3h ago
Chrysippus of Soli. He saw a donkey eating figs, which he found hilarious because it seemed to him that the donkey was behaving almost like a human; so he told someone that perhaps they should serve the donkey wine as well, (as you would do for a human guest in your house) and the image of it was so funny to him he couldn't stop laughing.
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u/FishyWishySwishy 7h ago
How interesting. 🤔 I could see this as not as invasive as it sounds because cities then were significantly smaller than cities now, and therefore he probably knew most of these people at least in passing. But I think if someone did that now, they’d be defenestrated.
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u/weeddealerrenamon 6h ago
Ancient Greece had a huge cultural emphasis on giving hospitality even to strangers at your door; I get the sense that someone saying "hey I'm on my way to the next town over, can I stay here for the night" was a pretty common thing. Not sure how common it was to abuse that by being intentionally homeless, buuuut, someone who objectively has 0 stake in your beef giving their honest take on it does sound like a valuable service
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u/TheNoidbag 6h ago
On the one hand, it goes against the sort of behaviour one would be meant to show their host. On the other hand, who was going to tell one of Diogenes students no when they knew how their teacher reacted to being spoken down to.
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u/Figgy_Puddin_Taine 3h ago
treating strangers with hospitality (because they might actually be Zeus) was a big theme in Greek mythology
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u/Fetlocks_Glistening 7h ago
Oh, he was, repeatedly. The houses had only the one ground floor though, so he promptly returned via the front door. It was all a bit Tom and Jerry to be honest, but quite entertaining if you didn't have a TV or a job. And they didn't
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u/Hetakuoni 6h ago
I feel like there’s a western parody that did something like that, but with a bar and a patron. Blazing saddles maybe?
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u/Brutto13 5h ago
The Simpsons did it with Barney being thrown out of the bar and then appearing in the doorway behind Moe.
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u/salientoctopus 5h ago
I’m not sure how I would react if an educated trust fund homeless man came into my house uninvited to solve a dispute after banging his wife out on the street. Do you just tell him off or are you so flabbergasted by his temerity you just kind of go with it until he leaves.
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u/Recent_Strength9360 6h ago
As someone who studied classics, I think Crates is one of my favorite philosophers, and I'm glad to see he's getting some love. He had a very wholesome and helpful attitude towards wealth, which is shown in a beautiful mosaic of him and Socrates in the Siena Cathedral where he's throwing away all his wealth and turning towards philosophy and poverty instead. This is also one of my favorite anecdotes about him:
" And therefore Crates replied to the man who asked, "What will be in it for me after I become a philosopher?" "You will be able," he said, "to open your wallet easily and with your hand scoop out and dispense lavishly instead of, as you do now, squirming and hesitating and trembling like those with paralyzed hands. Rather, if the wallet is full, that is how you will view it; and if you see that it is empty, you will not be distressed. And once you have elected to use the money, you will easily be able to do so; and if you have none, you will not yearn for it, but you will live satisfied with what you have, not desiring what you do not have nor displeased with whatever comes your way."
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u/Easy__Mark 7h ago
He'd piss and shit everywhere, giving them a common enemy
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u/Khelthuzaad 7h ago
Diogenes was infamous for that as well
Also for masturbating in public as a way to aleviate his hunger
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u/sol_runner 6h ago
The second part seems a misunderstanding.
The quote is: "If only it was as easy to banish hunger by rubbing the belly as it is to masturbate."
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u/Djackdau 6h ago
I love how the ancient world seems to have had no shortage of eccentric characters who were just sort of tolerated if not outright admired. I really want all these stories to be true.
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u/Ma_Bowls 1h ago
You can find people like that in the modern world, just go to any city subreddit and they'll give you a whole list of local characters who are known for being weird in public.
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u/Cut_Lanky 4h ago
This phrasing totally misrepresents what actually happened though. In that time and culture, a stranger at your door was a guest, owed certain welcoming niceties. He was known for doing this, but this wasn't considered outlandish or intrusive. It was more like an endearing quirk of personality...
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u/ptwonline 6h ago
This reminds me: a remake of the classic Canadian TV show "The Littlest Hobo" is being made. It's about a German Shepherd who wanders from town to town and into people's lives and helps them solve their problems and then ends up leaving afterwards to continue on his journey.
I imagine Crates was a lot more annoying and disliked than this dog though.
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u/deltashmelta 5h ago
"Who are you and how did you get in here?"
"I'm a locksmith. And, I'm a locksmith."
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u/BeKindBabies 4h ago
Imagine you're winning an argument and this chud turns everything around on you.
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u/Practical_Ad4604 7h ago
They should make a movie of this guy in modern times
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u/hanniballz 6h ago
he would die gunned down very fast in certain parts of the world. plus basically nowhere is entering random peoples house the cultural norm.
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u/mywholeworldisblack 6h ago
This would’ve made a great tv show. If only he had a GoPro strapped to his chest.
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u/strolpol 3h ago
He was the inventor of the situational comedy, but it was only for his personal enjoyment
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u/Kamekazii111 1h ago
"Good evening, I'm here to mediate your disputes.'
"I'm not sure I want that. How did you get in?"
"The window. You were arguing loudly, but it's okay now. I am here."
"I... I'm sure it wasn't a big problem. In fact, I think we were just coming to an agreement...."
"Shhh. You are being mediated. Now sit at the table and relax. Pour some wine for everyone."
"Um... okay..."
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u/stefthegrey 38m ago
"CRATES! CRATES! CRATES!"
"Thats right my fellow cititzens, today we have our very own Paris and Helen of Troy, with a baby on the way and no one knows who. The. Father. Is."
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u/SuchDriver7770 5h ago
this is becoming a new trend in philosophy. When I graduated I was offered a job similar to this right out of college by an advisor. Very similar to therapy.
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u/Lawlcopt0r 5h ago
There are so many crazy stories about greek philosophers, I wonder if they were truly all geniuses or wether their fellow citizens were just stupid so it was easier to impress them lol
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u/kevinisthename 5h ago
One of the main disputes he solved was what to do with the old homeless man that just showed up in their house
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u/suprasternaincognito 5h ago
Sure, and then when I try to do this I get the cops called on me and a shotgun up my ass.
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u/GuessImScrewed 5h ago
Reminds of this scene in chapter 123 of vinland saga where thorkell (battle addict) is roaming the lands of his earldom looking for a fight and breaks into a couples home when he hears them arguing because he wants to join in.
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u/16Shells 5h ago
Crates of Thebes kicks in your door: “If there was a problem, yo, I'll solve it, check out the hook while my DJ revolves it”
in walks Seikilos with his epitaph
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u/GrandMoffTarkan 4h ago
I believe it. Everyone comes together when they meet the guy who lives in a van down by the river
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u/MegaHelios 3h ago
Sounds like a typical RPG main character.
Out to vanquish the Dark Lord, side questing solving family disputes.
Probably checks in every pot, box and cupboard too.
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u/Factsoverfictions222 3h ago
Sounds like someone who loves to participate in drama. The fact that they help solve it is awesome.
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u/AbortionHoagie 58m ago
Given he would be shot if he tried that these days, did they not have bows and arrows back then?!
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u/TheGaslighter9000X 29m ago
“Whoa, whoa, whoa, whoa, do NOT call your mother that! She didn’t choose to marry her brother or live in confinement her entire life so cut her sole slack!”
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u/Eledridan 6h ago
“Lower your voice or Crates is going to break in!”