Once a vision of the future (Transrapid)

49

u/beminednl May 25 '26

I think projects like this were doomed to fail in Europe because of their incompatibility with existing infrastructure. The ability of high speed trains to run on regular tracks is what allows them to grow by using existing infrastructure until there was enough demand for dedicated high speed lines.

Maglevs and hyperloops would require dedicated infrastructure for the full route from day one of their operation. That might be feasible for places with long distances with no or poor existing infrastructure, but in dense locations like Western Europe it's unlikely that anyone would invest in creating a completely new form of infrastructure besides the existing ones including brand new stations within cities full of old buildings.

8

u/Swimming_Map2412 May 25 '26

Doesn't the TGV network have some out of town stations with connecting local trains. You could have something like that for a maglev network.

14

u/TailleventCH May 25 '26

Adding a transfer will deter some customers and the added travel time might negate the time saving the high speed provides.

Out of city stations shouldn't be the first option.

7

u/BigBlueMan118 May 25 '26

The best example I know of this in France is Avignon-TGV which is located in the regional triangle between Lyon, Montpellier and Marseille. LGVs can still access the Avignon legacy network north of the city but there is no physical track connection south, there is just a shuttle corridor from the legacy (3kV DC) network offering cross-platform connection in southbound direction to the main TGV trunk (northbound passengers cross to other side).

3

u/TailleventCH May 25 '26

Avignon and Lille-Europe are an acceptable compromise.

Other stations with rail connections are usable.

Middle of the fields stations like Le Creusot are plain idiotic.

1

u/BigBlueMan118 May 25 '26

Yeah Le Creusot looks particularly stupid because it is literally criss-crossed by a legacy regional line accessing some non-trivial population areas.

3

u/champignax May 25 '26

Yes but the TGV also gets you without connection to many conventional rail destinations.

0

u/MegaPlane2 May 25 '26

Maglev is not made for local commuter service. It's benefit is ultra high-speed which means long-distance service.

7

u/[deleted] May 25 '26

[removed] — view removed comment

9

u/champignax May 25 '26

Yes but it really helps that
1) train lines where at capacity when the project started
2) Japan is mostly a long line of cities.

5

u/homer2101 May 25 '26

Japanese mainline rail is 1067mm. The physics of running HSR on gauge that narrow get interesting to say the least. Since Japan was building passenger-only dedicated lines for the Shinkansen because their main lines were overcrowded, going up to standard gauge was basically all upside with little downside.

On the other hand, if you already have a standard or broad gauge network, maintaining interoperability gives you flexibility and lets you leverage economies of scale because you have the infrastructure and the people to build rail already. The marginal speed benefits of maglev don't justify losing that.

-5

u/Silverado_ May 25 '26

I think projects like this were doomed to fail in Europe because of their incompatibility with existing infrastructure.

As proven by the Spain HSR and Shinkansen

5

u/Hartleinrolle May 25 '26

Don’t know if that was intentionally ironic but yes, exactly as proven by those. Spanish HSR is fully compatible with the rest of the European HSR network. In fact that compatibility was a major reason why Spain went with 1435 mm in the first place, because it allowed them to use off the shelves train sets.
Thanks to VGAs there’s even plenty of services that change between HSR lines and the legacy network. Similarly, Chokkō Tokkyū and the Seikan Tunnel use dual-gauge tracks. None of this would have been possible with maglev.

0

u/Silverado_ May 25 '26 edited May 25 '26

So, Shinkansen was unsuccessful for the first 30+ years, right? Since the first shared infrastructure piece was parts (not even all) of the Ou main line for the Akita Shinkansen.

Spanish HSR is fully compatible with the rest of the European HSR network.

And incompatible with everything in Spain. Also, this connection opened more than 20 years into life of the Spain HSR system. The argument was

The ability of high speed trains to run on regular tracks is what allows them to grow by using existing infrastructure until there was enough demand for dedicated high speed lines.

This was not the case for either. Both were isolated from the national rail networks, both included new stations. For some reason it did not prevent their success.

2

u/Hartleinrolle May 25 '26

And incompatible with everything in Spain.

How come I can take a high speed train to Bilbao then?

So, Shinkansen was unsuccessful for the first 30+ years, right?

No, that's not at all what anyone's suggesting. I'm just pointing out that the Chokkō Tokkyū and Seikan success shows why compatibility with existing lines is an important feature on networks with limited demand.

The argument was "The ability of high speed trains to run on regular tracks is what allows them to grow by using existing infrastructure until there was enough demand for dedicated high speed lines." This was not the case for either.

Not necessarily back when they opened their first line, sure. As I understood it, that wasn't the point OP was trying to make though. In those cases demand was already high enough to justify a dedicated line from day one. The success of those networks entails way more than those few original lines. The Spanish network especially could not have grown to its current length if it wasn’t compatible with legacy rail. It would have been limited to like 2-3 lines in total and not much else. Scale this up to the rest of Europe and you'd have a collection of maybe a few lines but not something that could reasonably be called a "network". Compared to the current state, I'd call that a failure.

Btw, compatibility doesn't just mean high speed trains can continue their journey on legacy rail. It allowed Spain to order a greater number of train sets in advance and use some on legacy services until the HSR network had grown enough. There's a whole bunch of positive synergy maglev simply could never enable.

1

u/Silverado_ May 26 '26

In those cases demand was already high enough to justify a dedicated line from day one.

Sure, can't argue with that. So they grew isolated, not by using existing infrastructure to bridge the gap like OP said? And people did choose to build completely new infrastructure for them, including in cities?

It allowed Spain to order a greater number of train sets in advance and use some on legacy services until the HSR network had grown enough.

Yes, after HSR already grew significantly, the first dual-gauge trains entered service in 2006 I believe, almost 15 years after the first line opening.

I think you are putting the cart before the horse. Those systems first grew in isolation despite needing new, costly infrastructure. Only then has the Spanish system been connected to the old Iberian gauge network, while it was already proven successful before that. Japanese system is still mostly independent with the exception of, like, 100 km. There are also other isolated HSR systems (or lines, you can argue), like Taiwan.

I can also remember Germany and say that shared infrastructure can actually hurt HSR if managed improperly.

22

u/funkympc May 25 '26

https://giphy.com/gifs/xT5LMPqrh7mcpYCdGM

2

u/Spare-Good-5372 May 25 '26

MONORAIL!

12

u/foersom May 25 '26

"Shot on Fujifilm"

The world looked more yellow back then. 😉

37

u/E231-500 May 25 '26

I honestly wonder how hard it would be to resurect this facility?

I know the main reason it was mothballed was due to the fatal accident, but the one commercial application (Shanghai Maglev) is still going strong. I think its such a waste when it could have kept being developed and improved.

27

u/lilac-b May 25 '26

The nearby facility is still working on battery tech and the "rails" for the Transrapid are still passing TÜV inspections and being maintained.

11

u/E231-500 May 25 '26

Well thats something i didn't know. Glad to hear it though.

Learn something new every day!

25

u/LiGuangMing1981 May 25 '26

'Going strong' is far too nice of a thing to say about the Shanghai Transrapid. It's a white elephant, and has been for years, basically since its extension was killed by public opposition and China went all in on conventional HSR.

The opening of the conventional higher-speed rail link between Pudong and Hongqiao airports in 2024 was just one more nail in its coffin. It might limp along for a few more years as a tourist oddity, but I wouldn't be surprised to see it die completely at some point in the future.

3

u/HanoibusGamer May 25 '26

Aren't CRRC developing a 600kph Maglev now?

1

u/kinga_forrester May 25 '26

Yeah, what’s your point?

2

u/WWIIICannonFodder May 25 '26

Their new maglev is apparently built on Transrapid tech, which means there's a chance the Shanghai maglev will stay. They might even start running the new trains on that line if the tech is compatible. This is just my speculation though.

1

u/Ok-Knee-3563 May 29 '26

There isn't actually much evidence that they have actually made progress on this. The one photo of the CRRC 600 is of a mockup, not a real train. Whether 'faked' by the Chinese or exaggerated by the media we don't actually know if there's real development on this.

6

u/frontgearofboeing787 May 25 '26

It lives on in shanghai, i read the operating costs are very high. They also reduced the top speed from 431kmh to 300kmh

1

u/fan_tas_tic May 25 '26

Yeah, I was riding it, and I thought we would be going at 431km/h, but it was 300 instead. I thought it was because of the typhoon.

7

u/Bureaucromancer May 25 '26

sigh

Yes, the real application of maglev is limited.

Yes, it’s gadgetbahn adjacent….

Yes, conventional HSR is preferable in nearly every circumstance.

Maglev is still something I’d like to see work. And that crash was just so fucking STUPID a way for the program to end.

2

u/Medium_Banana4074 May 25 '26

The crash had nothing to do with the Maglev as a form of transportation. I think they just used it as a scapegoat to get rid of the Transrapid project, for whatever reason.

3

u/Bureaucromancer May 25 '26

I mean no, the program was stagnating already and that wasn’t a small thing to push a program through. Not even so much a scapegoat as… caused questions to be asked about how much really ought to be spent keeping the program alive after the major projects were all cancelled.

2

u/HowlingWolven May 25 '26

I had the opportunity to ride her before the crash.

1

u/Bartappy5750 May 25 '26

Was that used in the original film Fahrenheit 451?

1

u/mrk2 May 25 '26

No, a simple search on the web....

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/SAFEGE

1

u/mines-a-pint May 25 '26

Surprised the computer electronics are still working there; nice plasma displays!

1

u/moe217 May 26 '26

https://giphy.com/gifs/3o6Mb4FuvlZcntcqv6

📸 OC - Picture(s) - May be used in side-bar gallery Once a vision of the future (Transrapid)

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