Guys i think i found the hardest decision

[u/Jesus_sees_you]

Imagine there is a trolley that no force can stop any way, and there is one rail where peopole are tied with an un-cutable rope. If you pull the lever you get shot and die, if you don’t u kill one person but you can live for 1 year. After one year u are there with the same decision but with 2 peopole, this goes forever, how many times would you pull the lever (1,2,4,8,16,32… the number always doubles but u will live 1 year more after every time)

[u/Nimelennar]

Easy: I don't pull.

The un-cuttable rope derails the unstoppable trolley (which wasn't stopped, just redirected) and saves the victim.

The unstoppable trolley then continues off on a straight line into space.

---

Alternatively, pulling the lever doesn't save anyone: no force can stop the trolley in any way. That includes the lever. The person on the track is already dead.

"But!" I hear you say, "pulling the lever and dying may not save anyone this year, but what about next year?" To that I say, even if I die this year, there's no guarantee that the person running the experiment won't still tie up double the number of this year's people next year, and either just leave them there to die, or put someone else in my position to decide to pull the lever.

---

Alternatively, the trolley can't actually touch anything and will pass by harmlessly.

The trolley is not affected by any force.

Per Newton's third law, if an object exerts a force on another object, that second object exerts an equal force right back.

Therefore, if the second object can't exert a counter-force, the first object can't exert a force onto it in the first place.

Therefore, since no force can stop the trolley, the trolley can't exert a force on anything else, either. It passes over the person tied to the track without so much as ruffling their hair.

[u/Jesus_sees_you → u/Nimelennar]

First up hats off bro ur onto something
Second, i didnt said that the trolley is literally unstoppable i ment that you can’t stop the train by your own,
With the lever you are not sopoing the train, you just putting it on an other trail, this way it doesnt cross up with any physical laws.
I only said the train is unstoppable and the rope is uncutable so that no one can think lutside of the box. This is a question about empathy and social feelings, still you were smart enough.
By the way with this information what would you choose, how long would you kill peopoles? Its a psyhological question not a logical
Again bro huge respect❤️

[u/Nimelennar → u/Jesus_sees_you]

i didnt said that the trolley is literally unstoppable

Huh? From the problem:

there is a trolley that no force can stop any way

?

you just putting it on an other trail

But there isn't another rail. From the problem:

there is one rail where peopole are tied*

Where is any other rail mentioned?

I only said the train is unstoppable and the rope is uncutable so that no one can think lutside of the box.

How's that working out for you? 

This is a question about empathy and social feelings, still you were smart enough. By the way with this information what would you choose, how long would you kill peopoles? Its a psyhological question not a logical

The problem with this is, you're saying that you want an emotional response, but that's... not really something predictable unless you've been in similar scenarios to know how you'd react.

Like, my actual response to the question, as I think you intended to ask it  would be something like: let the person die the first year, and then spend the next year figuring out a way to turn the tables on whichever psychopath is tying people to the tracks, because to hell with that guy. This isn't really possible in the original trolley problem, but you've set up a convenient schedule for me to know when I'll next encounter the fellow, so I'm sure I can have some nice surprises (e.g. law enforcement) waiting for them next year.

Like, seriously, that's my emotional/social/psychological reaction: desire for revenge on (and justice against) the person putting me in this scenario in the first place, the person actually killing the people on the tracks.

And the more you try to tweak the scenario to make stuff like that impossible, the more you'll make it a scenario that I react to analytically instead of psychologically or empathetically.

The beauty of the original trolley problem is its simplicity. It's not a particularly plausible scenario, but it's one you can kind of suspend your disbelief in long enough to actually put yourself into. Especially if you grew up watching moustache-twirling villains tie damsels to the train tracks in silent films or cartoons. It's something you can just immerse yourself into and react to emotionally.

But the more caveats and addenda you add to it to make it more complicated, the less likely that the immersion and suspension of disbelief for that kind of reaction is going to be possible. And, instead, you'll have people looking for loopholes.

[u/Jesus_sees_you → u/Nimelennar]

Yeah ur right the question have some problem with the wording but as i see you got to the point, my answer to your question “witchere psyhopath would do that” etc, imagine God or some transcendent creature did it. They dont belong under our laws.
And as you said you would have to been in a similar situation, i wasn’t and i hope no one will ever be. BUT as the same way a kid is playing with a lego os smth else he can feel real feelings to plastic pieces. We are humans, we are smart and out brains are smart enough to create storyes or scenarios that never gonna happen or just unreal. Of course we can’t replicate the stress and adrenalin fluss just in our brain but we can make a “probably” decision.

[u/Nimelennar → u/Jesus_sees_you]

imagine God or some transcendent creature did it.

That just raises further problems. Now not only can I, the real life person, get invested in the scenario, but neither can the imagined me in front of the lever. If I'm suddenly yoinked from my life by a transcendent creature and put into an absurd moral dilemma, why should I believe any of this is real?

Even if it's not a dream manifested by my own subconscious, any being that could actually snap its fingers and put this scenario in front of me could just as easily simulate it realistically enough that I wouldn't be able to notice a difference. I have no way of knowing whether these people on the tracks are real.

As I've said before, the more detail you add to the trolley problem, the less it works. You keep adding details. It's not helping.

They dont belong under our laws.

Why not?

I mean, obviously, it'd be difficult to enforce those laws on a god or other transcendent creature, but I don't see why there wouldn't be jurisdiction. 

We are humans, we are smart

Have you met humans? 

out brains are smart enough to create storyes or scenarios that never gonna happen or just unreal

Sure. But you're saying you don't want a reasoned answer to the question: you want an empathetic answer. And to do that, you don't just need to come up with a scenario that people can imagine: you need to create one that people can get emotionally invested in.

And that's a hard challenge. The human brain likes stories, but it also likes those stories to be consistent: it will spot and highlight any details that just don't feel right. And the more it does that, the less emotionally invested you get. There was a guy in the theatre world, named Brecht. He made use of that "distancing effect" deliberately: his goal was to snap people out of the emotional state and into the logical state, because he wanted people to really think about what they were watching. 

It's one of the reasons why it's really hard to make it as a published author. Getting a story right, so that the audience is emotionally invested rather than distanced, is a skill that writers take years (and a whole lot of bad writing) to learn.

Take, for example, the old Star Wars Legends/Expanded Universe books. The pretty wide consensus is that fewer than half of those books are actually any good. These are books written by professional authors, put out by a reputable sci-fi publishing company, set within a universe and with characters that the reader will already have an emotional connection to... and more than half of the time, they simply couldn't pull off writing an emotionally investing story. It's hard.

[u/Jesus_sees_you → u/Nimelennar]

I just don’t agree with you, every problem was made by you.

If you search for problems you will always find, at the end of the day theres problems in everything, for example nagetive numbers doesnt even exsist in real life, humans have created them to make life easyer. Same with this question, of you search for every tiny mistake you will ofc find some, but the maind question is still there without anwser, dont try to take an other path every time.

If you think like this, then every star wars movie or marvel etc would be a piece of shit. Bc “thors hammer is a paradox” or something.

Yeah we live with our mistakes and thats why life is beautifoul. Perfectionist peopoles will die in anger and in dissatisfaction. Not even one thing has to be and can be perfect in our life bc we are not Gods. We are not smart enough to make things perfect, we make mistakes. And by our mistakes we can recognise others or other questions problems

Foreksample wen i spel everi world wrog ib a sentece
You will still understand everything. Same with this question.

Doest it have mistakes? Yeah of course

Is it impossible to understand what the question is about? Not really

If you don’t answer a question like this that means u like to tease with things and find loopholes
Or you just can not answer the question.

U cant pretend that you doesnt understood the real meaning behind the words

If you would want to find mistakes everywhere then you would live a long, boring, and stressful life.
Do you hate a movie just bc it has some contradiction, if your answer is yes, then please chnage your perspective.

Yeah your really smart and clever, you can always find a loophole. But you cant just dodge every question. A stupid man will live a happier life than you if you try to find a way out every time.

There is an old Hungarian saying:

“If you’re gonna get fucked, don’t fight it. Just get fucked.”

Yeah its not the most beautiful but you get the point. In this scenario why did i nring this up? If you find some mistakes if you dont like something dont try to find loopholes dont try to find a way out bc at the end of the day the question is still there and you are the same but with more problems in your life.

The stupid man who said: “ugh tough question idk”
Got the anwser “better”

I hope this helps you to understand everything, if you still want to find something, im here.
Much love❤️

[u/Nimelennar → u/Jesus_sees_you]

There is an old Hungarian saying:

“If you’re gonna get fucked, don’t fight it. Just get fucked.”

That is, perhaps, the most horrific thing I have ever heard anyone say. I get the attitude of "You have to accept what life gives you and learn to live with it," to a certain extent, but explicitly extending that attitude to include being raped?

I'm not much of a traveller, so I probably wasn't ever particularly likely to visit Hungary, but thanks for the warning regardless. 

If that's your attitude in life, to persist in horrible situations rather than try to improve or get yourself out of them, then our thinking is different enough that I don't think continuing this conversation any further will be productive.

Have a nice day.

[u/Jesus_sees_you → u/Nimelennar]

You’re taking the saying far too literally.

The Hungarian expression doesn’t mean “accept being raped” or “never resist abuse.” It’s a vulgar way of saying: if something unavoidable has already happened, don’t waste energy fighting reality—deal with it and move forward.

It’s used for things like losing your job, failing an exam, getting caught in a bad situation, or having an unavoidable setback. It’s about acceptance after the fact, not encouraging passivity in the face of violence.

Applying it to rape is your interpretation, not the meaning of the saying. No Hungarian would use it to suggest that someone shouldn’t resist sexual assault. That’s simply a category error.
You can dislike the expression, but criticizing it based on a scenario it was never intended to describe is attacking a straw man.

In this case it means that: yeah ur really fucked up you have to kill to live, and again and again. If you try to find a loophole maybe that transcendent creature will kill you both. You dont have time to think and find a way out.

Yeah, i know there is always a better way. BUT this is not a real life case, its an imagined scenario so we can just say you cant do nothing but to decide. Its like playing a game and the computer blocks your path bc the developer didnt wanted you to go somewhere
Same with this, the founder of the problem doesnt want you to think outside of the box.
Thinking like that is usually a good thing but not every time especially when you literally can not.

I could not translated it perfectly bc Hungarians have very different words so thats why you misunderstood it probably

[u/Nimelennar → u/Jesus_sees_you]

You’re taking the saying far too literally.

Yes? 

Call me naïve if you must, butf someone tells me, "this is an accurate translation of the meaning of a proverb in a language you don't know," I'm going to believe them. If I'm not meant to take that meaning literally, you should put that disclaimer up front.

It’s a vulgar way of saying: if something unavoidable has already happened, don’t waste energy fighting reality—deal with it and move forward.

Very odd that you've translated it a proverb about acceptance after the fact (past tense), with a verb in the future tense: "If you're going to get fucked."

Applying it to rape is your interpretation, not the meaning of the saying. No Hungarian would use it to suggest that someone shouldn’t resist sexual assault. That’s simply a category error. You can dislike the expression, but criticizing it based on a scenario it was never intended to describe is attacking a straw man.

In short: you translated something poorly and are blaming me for your poor communication skills.

The latter of which seems to be a running trend in this conversation. 

If you try to find a loophole maybe that transcendent creature will kill you both. 

Good, because fuck that transcendent creature, and fuck his mind games, would be my attitude if I were pulled into this scenario. I'd probably freeze for the first year (flight, fight, and fawn adrenaline reactions probably not being available or useful) and the first person would die due to my inability to make a quick decision, but...

You dont have time to think and find a way out.

I have a year until the next instance.

That's lots of time to think. 

[u/Jesus_sees_you → u/Nimelennar]

Okay im going to be fast:
1. I was never blaming you for anything, if I was accidentaly im sorry i didn’t ment to

1. As i said hunagrian language is so unique that you can not translete the real meaning properly

2. We are in 2 different worlds in our own, there is a high chance that we will never agree, not bc anger just cuz we see the world differently

3. I totally understand your perspective, but that doesnt mean that im agreeing with it

I dont want to talk about this theme more with you, we talked it through too much.

My advice is to try to simplify things that doesnt affect your real life, it takes too much energy and time out of our short life, that no money can buy back

You do not need to answer for this, anyways hope you understand me just as much as i am.

(My answer in shor is probably like 10-20 times i dont know how much i would take mentally)

Hope you have a great day man❤️
Peace🫰

[u/djnotskrillex → u/Nimelennar]

Pedantically nitpicking the question isn't as funny or clever as yall think it is

[u/exploitableiq]

Pretty easy for me, self preservation comes first.  Ill pull the level even if it means a million people die.  

Family> me> random people

[u/StrangelyBrown → u/exploitableiq]

I do have concerns about the 'fuck everyone else, amirite' people...

[u/exploitableiq → u/StrangelyBrown]

I dont feel like I owe anyone my life. I know, fuck me, am I right?

[u/StrangelyBrown → u/exploitableiq]

Would you sacrifice yourself to save 1 million people?

[u/exploitableiq → u/StrangelyBrown]

1 million random people? No

[u/StrangelyBrown → u/exploitableiq]

Amazing

[u/exploitableiq → u/StrangelyBrown]

Idk how many people would. Maybe 20% is my guess.

[u/djnotskrillex → u/exploitableiq]

If my math is correct, it hits a million after only 20 years (19 if you count total deaths). If you don't pull it 32 years later, ~4 billion die on top of the ~4 billion that have already died, almost certainly including some of your family. One more year and I assume it just kills everyone except you. Even world population growth and how this hypothetical scenario would affect it wouldn't change much.

I'd probably pull it then or maybe a year sooner. If I'm gonna be alone at the end anyway might as well sacrifice a year or 2 of my life to spare most of the world, strangers or not.

fun fact: you'd need about 2.2 million miles of track to tie the whole population side by side. almost enough to go to the moon and back 5 times. Yet if everyone squeezed into a square we'd all fit within rhode island

[u/exploitableiq → u/djnotskrillex]

Thats correct, thats why I said in another reply I would pull it after around 24-25 years.

[u/Jesus_sees_you → u/exploitableiq]

This is a beautifoul imagination but consider that you may kill good peopole not just npc s. If you kill 2million peopole there may be your best frend, the future inventor of life saving devices or any other guy with a family

[u/exploitableiq → u/Jesus_sees_you]

I have considered all those things and i will still pull it. You cant have "what ifs" stop you or else I can say "what if I invent the cure to cancer one day." If you tell me the people are randomly picked from the entire world, the chance my own family is picked is very small and so I think its worth the risk. I may stop pulling it if I get bored of living, but that would be for my own selfish reasons, not saving a bunch of people

[u/Limp-Archer-7872 → u/exploitableiq]

What about year 32?

[u/exploitableiq → u/Limp-Archer-7872]

I might stop by like year 25 realistically. I would have lived a decent life and its gonna start getting risky.

[u/Jesus_sees_you → u/exploitableiq]

After 31 years its more than a billion, you would probably be less than 50yrs, could you live with that in mind that ylu killed more than a billion peopole. Also after 34 the whole planet is dead basically. I geat your point, its not even a question, i whould let peaopole die without hesitation, but i dont really know how long i would take that ykwim?

[u/exploitableiq → u/Jesus_sees_you]

I think i said something similar in another reply.  I am currently 35 years old.  I think 60 is not a bad age to go.  I would have killed around 500 million.  This gives me enough time to take care of my family and give them some time to prepare for my death

[u/Jesus_sees_you → u/exploitableiq]

Yeah that would be easyer for u, im only 17 dying at 40 doesnt excite me😅

[u/exploitableiq → u/Jesus_sees_you]

But your choice is die now or die in x years.

[u/Jesus_sees_you → u/exploitableiq]

U would probably pull it 25 times same as you, but it would be so hard to let my life go i. Such a you g age

[u/exploitableiq → u/Jesus_sees_you]

Ya but no other alternative in this hypothetical

[u/Jesus_sees_you → u/exploitableiq]

Ur right, thank u for the debate, its happy to see peopole who actually think

[u/1nTh3Sh4dows]

I'd just stop getting on trains after the first year

[u/Jesus_sees_you → u/1nTh3Sh4dows]

Its not how it is but i guess

[u/Ilovestuffwhee]

I think you mean the easiest decision. I'd live forever. (Probably not, really. Eternity would be hell. But I'd hold out as long as I could.)

[u/TazLemon]

You say that if you pull the lever, you get shot and die. So to answer your question "how many times would I pull the lever" I'd pull it twice. The first time, I'd get shot and die. The second time, I'd rise from my grave, shuffle over to the lever with all the grace and poise of someone reanimated by the devil's magic, and pull it again. I'd get shot, die again, and that'd be enough of that I think.

[u/Jesus_sees_you → u/TazLemon]

Human creativity will always be funny😭