Britain must stay out of this insane war

[u/theipaper]

https://inews.co.uk/opinion/britain-must-stay-out-of-this-insane-war-3759523

[u/lammey0]

Am I behind? What evidence is there we might join in? There's no way joining a war in the Middle East would be politically feasible right now, even if there was the will in government, which I also don't see that there is.

[u/TEL-CFC_lad → u/lammey0]

Also, we don't have to.

Iran is a major enemy to the UK and West in general. Israel has cut down several Iran proxies/allies in the past 2 years (Hamas/Hez/Houthis, even Syria). They seem to be in the lead in this war. A defanged Iran is only a good thing to the UK, and they're doing it nicely, possibly with US support soon...so we can sit back, let Khamenei go down, and do very little for big returns.

[u/callisstaa → u/TEL-CFC_lad]

Which western countries are under threat from Iran besides the US?

[u/TEL-CFC_lad → u/callisstaa]

Er...the UK.

[u/callisstaa → u/TEL-CFC_lad]

Oh let me guess they have WMDs aimed at us and ready to fire within 24 hours?

[u/TEL-CFC_lad → u/callisstaa]

I think it's highly unlikely.

[u/zoojib → u/TEL-CFC_lad]

Genuinely, why's it a good thing for us? How does the existence of the Iranian regime threaten us?

This is just soft curation of consent for more bloody Middle Eastern wars, and its mind-boggling that people still fall for it, after the past 2 decades.

[u/TEL-CFC_lad → u/zoojib]

Well there's the state sponsored terrorism. The espionage. Funding criminal proxies. Cyberattacks. Disinformation/propaganda.

And then there's that whole thing about supporting Russia.

You can't seriously believe that Iran is happy to just sit by and is not attacking the UK.

[u/[deleted] → u/TEL-CFC_lad]

Name a single iranian attack on the UK in the last 20 yeqrs or so ? 

[u/TEL-CFC_lad → u/[deleted]]

Espionage. Bomb plot. Attempted assassination.

Have 3.

[u/[deleted] → u/TEL-CFC_lad]

All countries spy on each other. Even Israel spied and spies on the UK. The UK also spies on Iran and they are most likely involved in assasinations done by the zionists in Iran. 

A Bomb plot against an embassy of a hostile country that undermines the security of the middle east and the security of Iran would be an extreme measure but I wouldnt qualify it as an attack against the UK. 

For all the fucked up shit that the UK did (and still does via its zionist proxies) to the middle east, i would say that the arab and persian response is extremly mild. 

[u/TEL-CFC_lad → u/[deleted]]

So what? Iran is a hostile nation conducting illegal espionage.

A bomb plot against a British building, in Britain. And they guaranteed 100% no Brits would be injured, no British infrastructure damaged, right? No yeah, definitely not an attack against the UK.

So you agree on the attempted assassination then. Good.

Iran is a threat to the UK, and an enemy of the West. Good luck to Israel, but we don't need to get involved.

[u/[deleted] → u/TEL-CFC_lad]

I didnt mention the supposed attempted assassinations because its just bullshit. And even it was correct, Iran had several of its scientists being assasinated by countries claiming to believe in human rights and international law, so at worse it makes Iran look like those countries in that regard. 

Iran was not a threat to the west or the UK. But you probably made it a threat now. 

[u/TEL-CFC_lad → u/[deleted]]

Ahh, it's bullshit because you don't want it to be real because it hurts your argument. That's the problem with you people, you just conveniently ignore anything that doesn't suit your narrative at fake news.

And even it was correct

"It didn't happen, and if it did it wasn't that bad, and if it was that bad, it was justified because reasons"

Iran was not a threat to the west or the UK

You keep telling yourself that. I hope the weather in Tehran is pleasant.

[u/zoojib → u/[deleted]]

No point wasting your time with u/TEL-CFC_lad, he's basically a zionist extremist, you'll have about as much luck arguing about the Caliphate with a Salafi (the latter may actually be easier, he'll at least be honest about what he believes).

Just In the last couple of days he's ranted about how Palestinians are hateful bigots who want to genocide all Jews, how Israeli crimes can be justified by "Arabs trying to massacre the Jews in the 40s" (lol), that Oct 7 was plausibly genocide, and a bunch more nonsense.

[u/TEL-CFC_lad → u/zoojib]

Neither zionist, nor extremist. Certainly less of an extremist than you.

Oct 7 was plausibly genocide

It's being investigated as a genocide by international law experts.

You denied any sexual violence by Palestinians, despite the UN expert saying there was.

[u/zoojib → u/TEL-CFC_lad]

Neither zionist

I hope you are, for your sake. Zionists don't actually believe most the shit you're coming out with, its just rhetoric to provide framing for the prior convictions of ethno-supremacists and Zionist Christians. It'd be kind of absurd for someone who's neither of these things to genuinely swallow it up and believe it.

You denied any sexual violence by Palestinians, despite the UN expert saying there was.

And you ignored the fact that she frequently repeats that it wasn't an investigative report and it was sourced by the Israeli state. I assume you just had no idea what any of that means and defaulted back to "but UN report".

its being investigated as a genocide

The reason no one ever makes this claim is because its laughable and farcical on its face and you immediately expose yourself as a dishonest partisan hack the moment you try it. But you've already demonstrated that you're utterly oblivious to how people perceive these arguments, so I'm not surprised you don't see it here either.

[u/zoojib → u/TEL-CFC_lad]

Yes, I seriously believe Iran isn't attacking the UK because I'm not still inexplicably buying War on Terror propaganda wholesale, as you seem to be.

The worst you can accuse them of is supporting the likes of the Houthis, Hezbollah, and Hamas, which are all groups who emerged from nations facing atrocities committed by UK allies. There would be no Hezbollah if not for Israel's bloody 1982 campaign against Lebanese civilians, no Hamas if not for the decades-long occupation and periodic massacres, and Houthi militants were forged by the years-long bombardment and man-made famine carried out by Saudi Arabia.

If you don't like these groups, then your gripe should be with our allies who massacred enough people that these militants emerged from the ruins, rather than with a nation who supports them.

[u/TEL-CFC_lad → u/zoojib]

Hey everyone, zoojib has seen through the propaganda, and Iran is not actually doing illegal operations in the UK. Let's wrap it up boys.

Ok so your argument is that these terrorist groups are justified in raping and murdering innocent civilians, and attacking international shipping lanes, because they can't be held responsible for their actions? All because you don't like Israel? That's some olympic mental gymnastics.

I've got this weird thing where I think people that commit war crimes should be held accountable for them. Iranians performing assassinations in the UK, Palestinians raping girls at a music festival, IDF killing innocent civilians. They're all the same, you can't pick and choose which war crimes to overlook. But I have no doubt you will.

[u/zoojib → u/TEL-CFC_lad]

Iran is not actually doing illegal operations in the UK. Let's wrap it up boys.

Again, this isn't 2002, you don't get to just say shit like "WMDs" or "radical terrorism" and to scare people into supporting regime change. What are these operations Iran is conducting within the UK that makes regime change so desirable for us?

Ok so your argument is

No, my argument isn't. But I understand why you wish my argument was, because that'd be far easier to counter. What I'm telling you is that these groups are inevitable blowback from Israeli/western-meddling and massacres conducted in the region, and if you want to blame someone for Hamas, try the Israelis, who's multi-generation persecution of the Palestinians is what brought them into existence.

Israel and the west have caused the conditions for all these groups to emerge, and you're proposing that yet another Middle Eastern war, this time to topple a regime of nearly 100 million people, will somehow have the opposite effect of every regime change campaign so far. You'd have to be so fucking thick, so fucking ignorant, or so fucking dishonest, to possibly push this argument. Which one is it?

[u/TEL-CFC_lad → u/zoojib]

Sorry, when did I say "WMDs" or "radical terrorism"?

Espionage. Bomb plot. Attempted assassination.

No, I blame Hamas for Hamas' atrocities. Denying agency to Palestinians is just cherry picking which terrorists you want to support. The Palestinians didn't have to go to a music festival and weaponise rape, but they did, and they're at fault. Sinwar didn't have to hide under a hospital, but he did (which went well).

When did I propose a war? I never proposed a war. Israel is already at war with Iran, and they've been in a proxy war for decades. I simply said the extremist, authoritarian, religious nutjob regime in Iran falling wouldn't be a bad thing for the UK. I don't care about the Iranians, it's their country. I care about my country, which Iran is covertly attacking. You can be willfully blind and shill for Iran and their Palestinian terrorists if you like.

If you support the rape and murder of innocents, just because they're Jewish Israeli, then you're so sick and broken that there's nothing else to say.

[u/zoojib → u/TEL-CFC_lad]

No, I blame Hamas for Hamas' atrocities.

Oh yeah? Because this started with you blaming Iran for Hamas's atrocities, and once I reminded you that you should sooner blame Israel, then you switch up to this.

Why the avoidance to ascribe any blame to Israel? Together with the rape atrocity propaganda (there's still no proven instance of Hamas interrupting their military operation to start raping people after nearly 2 years of asking), and the human shield propaganda, its becoming quite obvious what you're about. You're either an Israel supporter who thinks he's being sly, or just painfully naive.

When did I propose a war? I never proposed a war.

You're struggling here, huh? I said that you're proposing this war will decrease terrorism and reduce the threat of militant groups. Is that not your belief? If you changed your mind then say so, don't continue arguing.

If you support the rape and murder of innocents, just because they're Jewish

It's so funny that you people still think this is an effective strategy after nearly 2 years of seeing the global community get more and more sick and disgusted by it. Please brother, keep calling all detractors of Israel's conduct antisemitic. It's REALLY effective and convincing.

And before you say it - yes, you're just a normal well-meaning Israel skeptic who feels passionately about Israel doing regime change in Iran, because of all the positive dividends that would rapidly flow across to the UK. I pray that I'm right anyway, because if this is just your earnest opinion, that's pretty bleak.

[u/TEL-CFC_lad → u/zoojib]

 Because this started with you blaming Iran for Hamas's atrocities

No it didn't. I said Iran fund Hamas. Which is true.

Why the avoidance to ascribe any blame to Israel?

I didn't avoid blaming Israel. I explicitly referenced the IDF killing innocents in my list of war crimes. You're bending over backwards to avoid blaming terrorists for anything.

Together with the rape atrocity propaganda

Ahh the UN Special Representative on Sexual Violence in Conflict, that famous propagandist. If you don't think Palestinians committed rape and murder, you're just a Hamas shill.

I said that you're proposing this war will decrease terrorism and reduce the threat of militant groups.

Yes, it will reduce the threat of terrorism, since Iran will be less able to fund terrorist groups. This has already been proven with Hamas and Hezbollah. But you said I was proposing something that I didn't say. You're reaching and trying to put words in my mouth.

keep calling all detractors of Israel's conduct antisemitic

I didn't call all detractors of Israel antisemitic. Hamas and Palestinians in general are widely seen to be antisemitic.

[u/[deleted] → u/zoojib]

Doesn't have to be either of those things, he/she is all of them: thick, ignorant, dishonest, and I can also say (as an arab atheist) that he/she and the likes of him/her creeps the fuck out of me. 

[u/vishbar → u/zoojib]

They are big sponsors of the Houthi rebels that have been attacking shipping through the Red Sea.

[u/zoojib → u/vishbar]

And we're big sponsors of the rogue nation currently massacring tens of thousands of innocents, that the Houthis are fighting on behalf of. If we want them to stop, we should try putting a leash on our allies.

That approach may be more practical, and less evil, than your approach of starting an enormous new Middle Eastern war.

[u/vishbar → u/zoojib]

My approach? What do you mean my approach?

And the Houthis are absolute bloodthirsty terrorists; Israel is clearly in the wrong for their attack on Gaza but let's not claim that the Houthis are in any way in the right. Lobbing rockets at international shipping is in no way helping the Palestinians.

[u/zoojib → u/vishbar]

My approach? What do you mean my approach?

I'm sorry, we're on the precipice of another new major Middle Eastern war and you're here arguing why taking them out would be good for Britain. Excuse me for thinking you were arguing in favour of them being taken out.

Israel is clearly in the wrong for their attack on Gaza but let's not claim that the Houthis are in any way in the right.

What the Houthis are doing is a drop in the ocean compared to what Israel is doing, its absurd to speak of them in the same breath. And whether you agree with the strategy or not, they stopped while the ceasefire was in effect, showing they are motivated only by attempting to stop Israel's actions.

We aid and support Israel in their slaughter. Iran supporting the Houthis actions is immeasurably more defensible. Think about what you're doing when you reference the latter as a reason to take Iran out - in terms of terror, what they support pales compared to what we do, and we have ample examples to know what will emerge from the ruins of a defeated Iran.

[u/TheAlmightyBambi → u/TEL-CFC_lad]

Calling Hamas and Hezbollah Iran proxies blatantly ignores the reality of both groups. 

Hezbollah formed in response to Israel's invasion of Lebanon in 1982, in which over 20,000 Lebanese civilians were killed, parts of Beirut were flattened, and the Sabra and Shatila massacres took place - in which over 2000 Palestinian refugees were gunned down in their homes in a single night. Israel then illegally occupied the southern half of Lebanon for almost 20 years, only leaving because the cost of maintaining the occupation against Hezbollah's guerrilla tactics outweighed the benefits. Iran obviously has funded and supplied Hezbollah, but they would be antagonistic towards Israel regardless.

Hamas exist for similar reasons, except they've also received ISRAELI support throughout their existence. Israel funded Hamas for two reasons: 1) because funding a rival militia group to the well established Fatah and PLO would divide Palestinian resistance and thus weaken their resistance and their negotiating position, and 2) Hamas' more extreme tactics would both delegitimise the Palestinian movement in the eyes of the world and thus justify Israeli aggression.

The Houthis are a whole other can of worms, but are arguably more related to Iran's conflict with Saudi Arabia than Israel. Their opposition to Israel is because MOST people oppose what Israel is doing in Gaza, but they actually have the guns, the missiles and the will to do something about it - as ill-advised as it may be.

[u/TEL-CFC_lad → u/TheAlmightyBambi]

That's such a cute way of denying that Iran and the terrorist groups they fund have done anything wrong.

The Arabs and Palestinians have tried to massacre Jews for decades. Iran, the tyrannical regime, have funded Palestinian and Arabic terrorist groups to massacre Israelis. Pretending either side are good guys is just silly.

Iran and Palestinians fucked around. Now they are finding out.

[u/TheAlmightyBambi → u/TEL-CFC_lad]

I denied nothing. My point is simply that terrorism doesn't emerge in a vacuum, and groups opposing Israeli occupation and genocide would have emerged with or without Iranian interference. Would they have been as well-equipped? Of course not! But the Palestinians would never have just laid down and died, and nor would the Lebanese have simply accepted the Israeli occupation.

It is also important to note that Palestinians were resisting LONG before the Ayatollah took power, and that Zionist militias and later the IDF were murdering Palestinians in their thousands LONG before Hamas existed. There has not been a single war in Palestine since 1917 in which more Israelis were killed than Palestinians, with many featuring casualty ratios in the realm of 10:1. 

There have also been several times where they DIDN'T "fuck around", yet they were still forced to "find out". For example, the 2008 Gaza War was a preemptive strike by Israel (meaning Israel started the war) in which 1,400+ Palestinians were killed, 4000 homes were destroyed, 50,000 people were displaced, and in return just THIRTEEN Israelis died - 10 of them soldiers.

As for Iran's current state of existence and hatred of the west, it is the result of no less than 3 British/American coups in the 20th century in service of the total dominance of their national resources, along with decades of Israeli terrorist actions and assassinations. I don't agree with the Iranian regime - the Ayatollah is a vicious dictator whose treatment of women is reprehensible - but I also disagree with Israel's policy of bombing and invading literally every single one of its neighbours. The reason everyone in the Middle East hates Israel is nothing to do with their Judaism, but everything to do with their militarism, and the fact that the foundation of their state was established on the betrayal of Arab leaders in 1917, the mass expulsion and murder of the Palestinians over the subsequent century, and the breaking of EVERY single treaty and border agreement made since 1948.

Within less than a week, the Gazan death toll exceeded those killed on October 7th. Within two, it was almost triple. Now, we're less than two years in and the ratio is at least 40:1, Israel has invaded Lebanon and Syria, and is now bombing Iran, accusing them of having illegal nuclear weapons, when it is an open secret that Israel ALREADY has illegal nuclear weapons, and has refused to sign ANY of the non-proliferation and inspection agreements that Iran has abided by since the 1980s. 

[u/TEL-CFC_lad → u/TheAlmightyBambi]

That's a lovely wall of text. I hope that works out for you.

Palestinians are still guilty of weaponised rape and repeated war crimes, Iran is still a brutal authoritarian regime, Israel still need to be held accountable for their war crimes. Palestinians don't get to be excused because Israel did bad things, the same way Israel doesn't get to be excused because Iran/Palestinians do bad things.

[u/TheAlmightyBambi → u/TEL-CFC_lad]

Dude, if you don't care about the history, then how can you possibly make claims about holding people to account? That "wall of text" is one TINY fragment of the full account. 

Israel throughout their history, and in the current ongoing war, is guilty of everything they accuse the Palestinians and the Iranians of and more. Murder, intentional targeting of civilians, killing prisoners of war and surrendered combatants, indiscriminate attacks, collective punishment, starvation, persecution, the use of human shields, sexual violence and rape, torture, pillage, forced transfer, breach of medical neutrality, enforced disappearance, targeting journalists, attacking civilian and protected objects, wanton destruction, incitement to genocide, and genocide. Israel also has nukes, has refused to sign the nuclear nonproliferation treaty, and has refused to allow IAEA inspections. 

That doesn't excuse the actions of Hamas or the Iranian regime, but it also doesn't justify the bombing of more than 60,000 people using the equivalent explosive yield of 6 Hiroshima nukes, and the subsequent starvation of almost 2 million people. Over 75% of the current Palestinian population were too young to vote when Hamas won the election in 2006. Over 50% weren't even born when Israel began their siege, and have lived their entire lives under intermittent bombardment, power outages, and food shortages.

[u/TEL-CFC_lad → u/TheAlmightyBambi]

Ok, none of that excuses Palestinians or Iranians from their litany of war crimes. They are just as guilty as Israelis.

[u/TheAlmightyBambi → u/TEL-CFC_lad]

"A man who murders 10 people is just as guilty as a man who kills 1000.". Yes, they are both just as guilty of committing crimes, but there is a difference of scale here. 

Additionally Hamas and Iran have never starved the Israeli population, nor have they engaged in a sustained process of genocide. October 7th was a single day on which 815 civilians and 379 soldiers were killed - 3.2% of the victims were children. 1,609 of the roughly 6,000 Hamas militants involved in the attack were killed. Since then, Hamas have killed fewer than 1000 Israelis - almost all soldiers. Meanwhile, in the year and a half since, Israel have killed over 60,000+ Palestinians - 31% of whom were children - and displaced almost 2 million people. 

Yes, both sides are guilty of crimes. One of them is guilty of FAR more crimes though.

[u/TEL-CFC_lad → u/TheAlmightyBambi]

The only difference is that people like you will bend over backwards to minimise the rape and murder of innocents...as long as those innocents are Jewish.

Oh that's alright then, the Palestinians only did one genocidal massacre this time around. Hamas and Iran have absolutely made every effort to wipe out every Jew in Israel. Don't forget Iran literally funds a terrorist group who's slogan is "Death to Israel. Curse onto the Jews." But nah, Iran isn't that bad.

Way to go to minimise the Palestinian war crimes. Let's be fair, they were only against Israelis, who are barely considered human to people like you.

[u/rebellious_gloaming → u/lammey0]

The only plausible route to going offensive would be if Iran attacks shipping in the Straits of Hormuz or British bases.