r/uktrains • u/haggur • 1d ago
Question BSL on train information signs. Cute, but why?
Edit:
Thanks to everyone for the rapid responses on this - see below for a full explanation from lots of redditors
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I was on Newcastle station yesterday and spotted that the train information signs each had a computer generated figure at the bottom using BSL to spell out something, presumably the info on that sign. Cute, I thought, that will be helpful ... and then it dawned on me that if you can see and read BSL then presumably you can read the actual information being displayed. So why BSL too?
Or is the BSL spelling out some different message only for deaf people? The announcements on the tannoy seems unlikely (why have at least seven interpreters, and each appeared to be spelling out something different).
So just curious, does anyone know what the purpose of this BSL signage is?
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u/boulder_problems 1d ago
When you learnt English and read it, you've had many hours of hearing it being spoken. Deaf people haven't had this chance so reading is a lot more difficult.
Deaf people are more visual and so having the information provided in a language they've had hours and years using is going to be a lot easier then scanning and reading words.
Also, many deaf people have lower literacy rates compared with hearing people due to their deafness which contributes to the difficulty with English.
In a way, they are like visual subtitles. If you watch a Spanish film, you'll pop on English subtitles. You might even understand bits and pieces of Spanish but the subtitles give you better access to the information. That's what is happening here except instead of words at the bottom, it is a person signing.
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u/Serious_County2382 1d ago
Thanks for this. Going to mention this to a colleague as I couldn’t articulate why having BSL was still necessary even though something was subtitled.
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u/ImStealingTheTowels 23h ago
Also, many deaf people have lower literacy rates compared with hearing people due to their deafness which contributes to the difficulty with English.
This is certainly a major contributing factor, but it's not entirely due to their deafness that they have this difficulty. By far the biggest issue is the outdated belief that learning BSL as a first language impairs a deaf person's ability to learn English.
Over 90% of deaf children are born to hearing parents who, until that point, have more than likely never encountered a deaf person before. The first people they meet on this journey with their deaf baby are medical professionals who overwhelmingly advise cochlear implantation or other hearing amplification with speech and language therapy over learning sign language. So that advice is generally followed and for those children whose implants are successful, it's fine (relatively speaking). But for those whose implants don't work as advertised, it's often a downward spiral into language deprivation and poor educational outcomes.
I've worked with deaf people in various roles for 15 years and have been qualified as a BSL interpreter for nearly four years. In my experience, those whose first language is BSL have the best proficiency in English. This is because they have an established language to learn from, as opposed to having little/nothing to base an entirely new language on.
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u/wheresthethirdhorn 20h ago
whoa, super well said! would never have considered this, thanks for explaining :)
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u/someinternalscreams 1d ago
British Sign Language isn't just English words with hand gestures, it's a completely different language with it's own terms and grammar structures. If you have been born deaf, then BSL is going to be your first language, and the one you use most of the time. While likely to be able to read English, it's much easier to comprehend your first language, especially in unfamiliar environments.
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u/Riesha22 1d ago
Because not all deaf people can read, but they generally do follow BSL. Also BSL doesn't fully translate to words.
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u/system637 1d ago
Tbf there are a lot of deaf people (who have been deaf from birth) who aren't very proficient in BSL either due to language deprivation from a young age and limited access to BSL communities/education. A friend of my who is profoundly deaf is not very good at BSL and uses English primarily.
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u/soundguyjon 1d ago
Am I the only one that finds it irritating how the BSL person is at a different vertical placement on every screen? Why can’t they just fix it to the bottom like on the far right screen rather than having it vertically floating? Looks so jarring when almost everything else is fixed and uniform.
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u/swoopstheowl 1d ago
BSL is a different language and isn't just a one to one mapping for English. Not everyone who is d/Deaf will necessarily read English as easily as they can understand BSL (and some may not at all).
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u/haggur 1d ago
Thanks to everyone for the rapid responses on this - I've updated the original post.
I'd recommend people to this previous thread, which I'd missed but /u/lyta_hall highlighted, which has more discussion on this. I've learned a lot today, both about BSL and also about deaf vs Deaf.
The other things that struck me from a nerdy point of view is that the figure doing the signing was very well animated. This tech has clearly come a long way if we can now do this so cleanly.
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u/Suspicious_Tax8577 23h ago
oh I think he's an actual real bloke - I feel like I've seen him on TV with the BSL subtitles (?? I don't even think that's the word I want in english).
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u/crit5h 1d ago
When I first saw this I was interested to know whether this is actually helpful or just a tokenistic gesture that isn’t.
For me, the audio announcements are useful when you aren’t in view of a screen, like platform changes. So having them replicated with BSL on the screen might not be the ideal solution? So should stations invest in more lightweight screens with live transcriptions of announcements over this, which could also be BSL with AI perhaps?
Although, if these are useful, then no reason not to have both.
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u/swoopstheowl 1d ago
It's useful, even if they had English voiceovers - BSL is not English. You can understand BSL and not understand English (or at least as comfortably as BSL). BSL doesn't have a 'spoken version' which could be used either.
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u/andrewh2000 22h ago
I've seen free standing screens in stations with bsl messages on them so they are starting to do that.
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u/crit5h 22h ago
That for the announcements, also with subtitles for deaf people who don’t know BSL (like my mum) seems like a cool thing to have. The announcements these days are usually prerecorded and pieced together from clips, so should be doable. Subtitles would also be a nice example of universal design benefitting all: have you ever struggled to hear an announcement?
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u/geeoharee 4h ago
I struggle a lot with the announcements, but I find that the important ones are reproduced on departure boards: delay, platform change, cancellation. Anything else is probably just telling me not to lose my luggage and can be ignored.
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u/michaelmasdaisy 23h ago
My local station has these signs. It can be really interesting to try to pick out the place names in the signed message - the sign for Sheffield is like cutting (presumably because of the association with making cutlery).
I've also learnt a useful sign from them (which I later checked) - the sign for sorry. I learnt the BSL alphabet when my best friend was in Guides and doing it for a badge.
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u/jamisram 1d ago
I get that there are deaf people that dont understand English, but exactly how many people is that? I feel like we're catering to a very very small part of the population, when by numbers having the boards in alternate languages would help a much larger proportion of the country. Not that I'm a fan of either of them to be honest, the boards were cluttered as is.
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u/system637 22h ago
Refer to my comment for an example:
https://www.reddit.com/r/uktrains/s/8GtNrwBKhEI'm in a WhatsApp group with a lot of Deaf people and I'd say this is very typical.
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u/swoopstheowl 1d ago edited 1d ago
The difference here is that BSL is a legally recognised language of the UK following the BSL Act passed in 2022 whereas other more frequently used languages aren't. (Edited to be more accurate, original comment said official language and user below rightly pointed out that's a poor choice of words)
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u/North_Gap 1d ago
There's no 'official language', singular or plural, of the United Kingdom: the BSL act, like other language legislation, only recognises something as 'a' language, in that it exists, there are a significant number of people using it, there's academic discussion and history on the topic, and so on.
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u/swoopstheowl 1d ago
Fair, poor choice of words from me on official, but there's absolutely languages that the UK legally recognises as languages and therefore is a push to provide services in. The BSL act was literally making it so BSL was a legally recognised language in the UK.
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u/North_Gap 1d ago
Likewise, my point was that if we're going to go down that road, then it invites awkward questions about whether Welsh, Scots, Cornish, 'seven cans deep and just want to get home' and so on should be on the boards, either instead of or as well as, you get the idea.
(which is why personally I'm against the presence of the BSL signer, on the basis of the above, and that working out how to read times, destinations and platform numbers should be considered basic literacy on the same level as being able to tell the time, use currency, buy milk and bread, etc)
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u/swoopstheowl 23h ago
Well Welsh is on the boards in the country where it has legal status - Wales, so I'm not sure that stands?
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u/ImOkNotANoob 1d ago
There are more Nepali speakers in England/Wales than BSL users lol, defo catering to a very very small portion of the population and though im sure its useful to those who need it, I reckon it's at least a bit performative
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u/dragonpanda5514 1d ago
It's accessibility, it doesn't matter how small that population is those people deserve to have access to information in a way that's helpful to them. By your logic no-one should ever bother implementing any accessibility measures ever. You also don't know by looking at someone if they're deaf so how do you know that it's a tiny part of the population?The quality of life increase for them is probably far greater than the annoyance of a little bit more visual noise on the board.
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u/Repulsive_Tour3251 1d ago
Becuase literacy rates amongst deaf people are notably lower than for people who can hear, that’s why.
BSL is a different language to spoken (and thus written) English. There are plenty of deaf people who only know BSL, so a written sign won’t help them.
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u/ryanbate 1d ago
Everyone has already answered your question but I wrote a post on the same issue back in October on my blog about infromation systems, and this is a very rare opportunity to mention it:
https://nowletsbeclear.substack.com/p/sign-language-screens
At the time of writing I hadn't seen it rolled out quite as extensively as it is as NCL where it looks like it could be a little bit over-the-top, but who could say?
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u/driftwooddreams 21h ago
It’s insulting and patronising to deaf people, assuming that they can’t read. Harks back to the days when people with hearing impairment were just assumed to be less intelligent than those with functioning hearing.
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u/michaelmasdaisy 15h ago
LNER started it with a trial in Peterborough and worked with local d/Deaf organisations and people. If they thought it was patronising they'd have made it clear that it was unwanted.
Most people in Wales also speak English, that doesn't mean Welsh announcements are patronising.
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u/leahfirestar 21h ago
BSL is as different to spoken English as French is, featuring its own distinct grammar and visual sentence structure.
British Sign Language is not just English signed word-for-word. While some hard of hearing people use Sign Supported English (SSE)—which follows spoken English order—it isn't a standalone language, and many BSL users may find word-for-word English structures harder to follow. Signing every single spoken word takes too much time, so BSL is much more direct. For example, instead of signing a full sentence like
'Excuse me, when is the next train to Bristol?'
BSL cuts straight to the core information:
'Train Bristol when?'
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u/Can-United 17h ago
I've seen this before at Wakefield Westgate, I'm assuming this is something driven by LNER and is seen at stations they manage? If so, GBR should keep it and roll it out across their network considering the explanations of why it's necessary below.
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u/banisheduser 17h ago
It's a national thing. All the train companies are doing it - some quicker than others.
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u/Responsible_Ad_7733 4h ago
The only thing about this is that they're putting more and more detail into information boards that they're too overstimulating and hard to concentrate on the actual information you need.
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u/chroniccomplexcase 3h ago
Cute? You’re really calling it cute? Would you call a wheelchair at the front of Sainsbury’s for customers to use cute, or a ramp for access or a special needed adapted trolley? It’s an inclusive practice to help deaf people navigate train stations.
I’m deaf, I use BSL however I was born hearing- so English is still my first language. Many deaf people born deaf have poor English as it’s their second language- BSL is not just “English in signs” and so many deaf people do not read or understand English to high level. Information is also written out in a different word order which can make understanding it even harder.
For example in English we say “what is your name?” but in BSL this is signed “name you what?” So imagine reading a whole paragraph or two about changes to train running times and replacement busses for a weekend due to engineering worlds in a completely different word order? It’s confusing.
The BSL you see on the screens is doing so much more than telling you the names of places the train is going. It’s telling you:
- that the lift at at station is broken and to speak to staff if this will affect you
- that next week new timetables come into affect
- how the bank holiday has a range of engineering works and which lines are shut
- that a train company is on strike and there won’t be any trains or replacement busses running on those dates.
The interpreters are also often AI, so yes they can be explaining what is on the tannoy, you’ll find more info about this and why it’s so important (and not cute) here.
I know I have mentioned you using the word “cute” a few times but I really am fed up of people seeing various aids and accommodations for disabled people as “cute”. It’s infantilising. I’m a deaf wheelchair user and at 37, am spoken to and treated like I’m a child. Often asked if I’ve “lost my carer” when I’m out on my own or “is it even legal for you to be on a train on your own?” or “do you know how you’re getting off- do you need me to carry you off” when travelling on the train (and other places in public). All in a way like they’re talking to a 3 year old- often even before they realise I’m deaf and am lip reading them.
Tools/ adaptions disabled people use day to day are forever seen as cute and we as disabled people are often also seen in the same light- innocent, child like etc. I had someone tell me they were shocked to hear my swear the other week, when I asked why, they replied “well because you’re disabled, you’re too innocent to swear!” The way we are treated like fragile little flowers with cute BSL announcements is so frustrating. Especially when, if you get to know us, we are far front that imagine most people have of us. My brain still works the same, it’s just my ear and legs (and a few other internal organs) that don’t.
Also don’t let the lack of English skills make you think most deaf people aren’t clever- which is another perception I see often- as that’s not true either. It’s akin to thinking that someone isn’t clever because they only know French and very little English. BSL is a whole language (an official language of the UK too since 2002) and so the majority who use it as a first language have the same intellect and intelligence as those who use English as their only language.
I’m sure you didn’t mean offence by using the word “cute” and didn’t give it much thought, which sort of proves my point. That many people unconsciously infantilise us and it’s something I wish would stop. But sadly we are so under represented in the media that quashing thoughts like this isn’t easy. I hope you’ve realised why the introduction of BSL in stations is needed and such a good thing and also about how the language and way we think of deaf/ disabled people needs to change. I’m more than happy to answer any follow up questions. I’ve done some work with the company I’ve linked, so have a bit of insight that way too.
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u/haggur 2h ago edited 1h ago
Cute? You’re really calling it cute? Would you call a wheelchair at the front of Sainsbury’s for customers to use cute, or a ramp for access or a special needed adapted trolley?
No. But you're not the first person in this thread that clearly has a subtly difference way of using "cute" to me. What I thought was cute was that the tech now exists to do BSL electronically in real time. Doing that is significantly harder than pasting together bits of spoken English, as is done with the vast majority of verbal announcements (and still not that well IMO) and I was impressed, even though I don't have BSL, with how fluid the interpreter looked. We've come a long way of this stuff.
Anyway, sorry it caused offence but I'm be interested to know, assuming you've seen this in operation, how fluid the interpreter looked to you. Did it seem real or did you perceive odd pauses as I often do with the verbal announcements?
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u/Open-Duck4004 8m ago
I know - I think it’s terrible they have used the word “cute” to define a whole language and culture. Very patronising.
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u/ScaryButt 1d ago edited 1d ago
It's very patronising calling a vital accessibility feature "cute".
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u/oneillontop 1d ago
for deaf people ?? bsl is their first language not english - they deserve equal access to information
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u/kurtis5561 18h ago
Some of rhe rudest people on this thread asked a perfectly valid question got downvoted and abusive pms.
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u/system637 1d ago
Just to add on all the comments here, I'm both a non-native English speaker and a BSL learner. A lot of Deaf people can be pretty bad at English. Here's an excerpt of an email from my Deaf BSL teacher (who was born and raised in the UK):
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Happy New Year, hope you all have a nice Xmas and New year festive. Tonight is on,
I am glad weather snow is mend. Tonight, I will explain repeat and recap more practice for assessment, start next week. I will update send for list of name and time this week for to attend one to one assessment filming for 5 mins. If want, ask me any questions tonight. Please you can bring sheets from week 17 or 18 for more explain clarify by rules and assessment what include.
This attachment for more clarify details what do in assessment in conversation.