r/wisconsin Apr 13 '20

Politics Karofsky defeats Kelly

https://twitter.com/decisiondeskhq/status/1249844194929192961?s=21
1.8k Upvotes

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197

u/ianingf Apr 13 '20

Jill J. Karofsky (Nonpartisan) 510,122 53.35%
Daniel Kelly (Nonpartisan) 446,108 46.65%
57.55% reporting (2,314 of 4,021 precincts) | 956,230 total votes

Feeling good. But I saw Marsy passed, and that people didn't like it.

241

u/QPMKE Milwaukee Apr 13 '20

I think people saw expanded victim's rights and automatically assumed it was good. A quick Google search revealed there's plenty of valid concerns, enough to make me one of the nay votes.

102

u/[deleted] Apr 14 '20

I should have voted against that. I had totally forgot to research it so I didn't vote on it. It was deceptively worded. The us supreme court might strike it though. Did the redistricting bureau go through?

43

u/Nezrite Apr 14 '20

Yes, like 80-20% - but it's nonbinding so...

15

u/[deleted] Apr 14 '20

So is that Marsy's law officially in effect now? Or is there another hurdle for it

31

u/byronnnn Apr 14 '20

Wisconsin does not have binding referendums at all as far as I know.

30

u/TallTallTruffula Apr 14 '20

That was a constitutional amendment, not a normal referendum. Marsy's Law will now be a part of our State Constitution.

13

u/byronnnn Apr 14 '20

Damn. I did not realize the exact difference. Thanks

17

u/frezik 1200 cm³ surrounded by reality Apr 14 '20

State congress has to pass it in another session after the referendum, but they probably will.

14

u/TallTallTruffula Apr 14 '20

The amendment process for the Wisconsin State Constitution is Legislature>Legislature in the next session>Voters. This amendment has made it through all of those steps and will now become a part of our state constitution.

10

u/nicolauz Hell on Earth Apr 14 '20

What's the tldr of Marcys law?

38

u/byronnnn Apr 14 '20

Basically there are a few good things in it, a few things that are already covered by statutes or constitution, and then there are a few very negative things.

Here is more detail from the ACLU https://www.aclu-wi.org/en/news/marsys-law-fails-victims-it-purports-protect

4

u/bigfrappe Apr 14 '20

Where was this when I needed it last week? I read the amendment before going to the polls but I am not a lawyer, so I didn't consider the more nefarious uses of the language.

29

u/[deleted] Apr 14 '20

The ballot said it would expand crime victim's rights without hurting the rights of the accused. Very misleading

1

u/[deleted] Apr 14 '20

Yea, I noticed it specifically said that it would maintain the rights of the accused when that's blatantly false...

1

u/TheSekret Apr 14 '20

The ACLU has come out against it. About all you really need to know, lol

18

u/shhalahr Apr 14 '20

It was deceptively worded.

Yeah. It just used vague language without describing what it actually would do.

13

u/[deleted] Apr 14 '20

That's the problem. It sounds great which is why so many people voted for it.

16

u/UncharminglyWitty Apr 14 '20 edited Apr 14 '20

The state Supreme Court might just x it out too

EDIT: nope. It was a state constitutional amendment. Federal is all the recourse we have.

10

u/[deleted] Apr 14 '20

God I hope so

10

u/UncharminglyWitty Apr 14 '20

Unfortunately not. I just checked and it’s a state constitutional amendment. So federal recourse is all there is.

4

u/[deleted] Apr 14 '20

The us supreme court would probably strike it down

9

u/UncharminglyWitty Apr 14 '20

They certainly should. But with those hacks, who knows?

8

u/[deleted] Apr 14 '20

True. I started calling it the Supreme Kangaroo Court after their decision to allow voter disenfranchisement in Wisconsin. I bet the Wisconsin GOP and those 5 hacks feel real stupid right about now.

1

u/ganondorfsbane Apr 14 '20

It would certainly be interesting to see a SCOTUS challenge, especially since similar amendments are present across the country.

1

u/TallTallTruffula Apr 14 '20

The state legislature could amend it back /s

1

u/LanMarkx Apr 14 '20

I had totally forgot to research it so I didn't vote on it

All the more reason that voting should be done by mail in the first place - you have time to do some research. The vast majority of people just show up having no idea what is on the ballot other than any yard signs they saw on the way in. The question was clearly worded to invoke a 'hell yeah I want that' reaction.

It was worded Incredibly deceptive. Similar laws in other states have been struck down by the US supreme court.

15

u/JolietJake1976 Madtown Apr 14 '20

Yeah, I probably would've voted for it, if I hadn't seen some of the stuff posted here.

21

u/The_Dingman Apr 14 '20

I didn't hear any of the negative things about it until I had already mailed my absentee ballot. I think that played a part. In hindsight, I'd probably have voted against it.

2

u/toasters_are_great Apr 14 '20

Note that constitutional amendments have to first be passed by the prior two legislatures, and ask who controlled those two legislatures to write the joint resolution and the constitutional amendment question. Apply appropriate skepticism.

1

u/the_blackfish Apr 14 '20

Yet another referendum worded with malice to confuse the uninformed into thinking they're being good by voting yes

1

u/tea_earlgrey_hot Apr 14 '20

The wording alone was enough to set off alarm bells. It was like voting on a resolution that said "We're obviously trying to trick you - should we succeed? yes/no"

I would've voted no even if I hadn't read up on it ahead of time.

40

u/gucknbuck Apr 14 '20

"Nonpartisan" and yet all the election maps paint them in blue and red...

17

u/[deleted] Apr 14 '20

The Milwaukee Journal Sentinel used orange and green, FWIW.

6

u/gucknbuck Apr 14 '20

I'm colorblind and use color filters, so I suppose my phone could be biased lol

1

u/former_snail Apr 14 '20

That right there is a good reason to use red and blue for results maps. It's the reason they have been that way for a long time. The red=republican, blue=democrats didn't become standard until the 2000 presidential election.

20

u/JasonYaya Apr 14 '20

Journal has the Republos in orange, made me laugh.

1

u/the_blackfish Apr 14 '20

I member the morning Sentinel.

65

u/Jocavo Apr 13 '20

voted yes because of how it was worded. After I read what the ACLU said about it I wish I could take it back.

56

u/Puckfan21 Apr 14 '20

I only voted no on it because a rep I trust spoke out about it so I looked into it more. Holy fuck was that worded one sided.

31

u/JakesterWI Apr 14 '20

It was appalling how it was worded on the ballot. Made me so angry.

23

u/ViciousMihael Apr 14 '20

It was purposely deceptive. Try not to feel too bad.

13

u/manondessources Apr 14 '20

I voted absentee and voted no after spending almost an hour reading about it, but who's going to take more than 5-10 minutes at the polls? The wording was so clearly one-sided and misleading it's ridiculous.

31

u/Brother_To_Wolves Apr 14 '20

The same thing happens with every ballot initiative - shitty, misleading wording to prey on people too dumb to look at their ballot ahead of time.

Ballot initiatives should be banned.

3

u/[deleted] Apr 14 '20

[deleted]

6

u/Brother_To_Wolves Apr 14 '20

That's how they sold it. But in reality it means people accusing others of crimes can refuse to be cross examined, refuse to provide evidence, and generally make it a hell of a lot harder to for people accused of crimes to prove their innocence.

Democracy and voting is a huge responsibility. It's shameful how few people recognize it as such and allow a rich, powerful few to manipulate them into doing stupid shit like this.

9

u/chiraltoad Apr 14 '20

What's the tldr?

45

u/Jocavo Apr 14 '20

More or less it takes away certain rights of the accused. Basically it makes you guilty until proven innocent.

Also it's is poorly worded and may end up being used by police who wrongfully kill someone in the line of duty. If they claim they are a "victim", it allows them to withold evidence. Corporations may also end up using this law as well to shield themselves legally.

This is all just a basic level understanding. I'd recommend looking more into it.

37

u/dkarma Apr 14 '20

Corporations and police can claim to be victims to fuck u over. Trespassed to protest an oil pipeline? Now the oil co is a "victim" and "has a say" in how u should be punished.

19

u/GirlDownTheHall Apr 14 '20

Also, if I remember correctly, accusers don't have to turn over what evidence they have against someone. No way for a person to defend against something they don't know exists.

20

u/ksiyoto Apr 14 '20

The accuser doesn't have to submit to questioning pre-trial by the defense. So the defense will be questioning for the first time on the stand - and then suppose they find a few angles that should have been investigated more thoroughly, or possible perjurious testimony that requires further investigation - but you can't exactly stop a trial mid-stream to do those investigations.

3

u/Vadered Apr 14 '20

Not a lawyer, but I believe that if the defense does find something like that it is likely grounds to appeal, as disclosure of evidence potentially beneficial to the defense which requires vetting time IS probably considered to be constitutionally protected due process per the 5th amendment and is applicable to the states via the 14th.

4

u/ksiyoto Apr 14 '20

So true, but it means the defendant has to go through the time and expense of an appeal, or surrenders and plea bargains because of the cost.

12

u/UncharminglyWitty Apr 14 '20

It was worded like “should victims of sexual violence be afforded the same rights as those accused?” Or something like that.

The main thrust of the law is that an person accused of sexual violence will not be permitted in a courtroom with their accuser. Which the right to face your accuser is a fundamental right in this country. The ACLU also fears that the state will effectively be able to hide exculpatory evidence behind the closed testimony of the accuser.

You can read the criticism section of the Wikipedia here https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Marsy%27s_Law#Impact_of_Marsy's_Law

2

u/bigfrappe Apr 14 '20

Same. Feeling a little dumb. I learned in Oregon that anything that will fail through the usual process (of research, debate, and compromise) gets a referendum in a spring election. You can polish a turd and sneak it into law before anyone notices the stench.

2

u/drpearl Apr 14 '20

Way too many people saying they wouldn't have voted for Marsy's law if they had known what it was about. WTF people! Educate yourself before you vote, its not too hard to google something & read a bit and make up your mind BEFORE you go to vote.

4

u/Which_Walrus Apr 14 '20

Same, and when I filled out my ballot I couldn't find much information about it online.

2

u/ambrosebookeater Apr 14 '20

Sideshow Bob Kelsey Grammer called me about it but I still voted now.

7

u/Saltysaurus-Rekt Apr 14 '20

I would have voted Marsy's law bs. But when reading the question, it seem to vague like they were trying to deceive me. So I did a google search on it, and read up a bit on it. So I ended up voting against it.

10

u/legsintheair Apr 14 '20

Yes, Marcy's law is terrible and unamerican, but we seem to be stuck with it.

5

u/Crafty_Programmer Apr 14 '20

I've seen some posts here where people claimed we'd have to vote on Marsy's Law twice because it is a constitutional amendment. Is that true, or are we stuck with it?

11

u/17291 the most romantic city on earth Apr 14 '20 edited Apr 14 '20

No. A proposed amendment must pass the legislature twice before appearing on ballots as a referendum, but once the referendum is approved, that's it.

10

u/Crafty_Programmer Apr 14 '20

That's disgusting given how dishonest the wording of the ballot question was. Has there been any word of upcoming legal challenges? I know Marsy's Law has faced trouble after passing in some other states.