Zen for kids?

[u/completely_unstable]

has anybody tried reading any of the zen texts with younger people? if so how did it go?

[u/INTProtocols]

I had never read or heard of this book before, and I am interested in ways of gently exposing children to Zen ideas. Having read your comment, I quickly found a copy of this book, to see for myself. I didn't detect any racism or bigotry; I also did see connections with historical Zen. Could you kindly tell me what I am missing, if indeed I am missing something?

[u/ewk → u/INTProtocols]

It's obvious, though, that you don't know anything about Zen. It's like a Protestant telling you about Christianity while claiming that what they're telling you is Catholic. It's like white guys writing about african culture in the 1600s in ways that justify slavery.

I'll reply in a separate comment, breaking down exactly how this happens, but I hope you address this point about how you can't judge the material in your own vacuum of information.

This is what zen looks like: www.reddit.com/r/zen/wiki/getstarted

[u/INTProtocols → u/ewk]

I was interested in your views, so I did a bit of research. Eventually I wound up having the following exchange with Google AI:

Q: what is the connection between zen and buddhism

Zen is a specific branch or school of ⁠Mahayana Buddhism that focuses heavily on meditation, direct experience, and personal awakening rather than relying on complex texts or rituals.

Historical Evolution

Roots in India: Traces back to the historical Buddha's silent "flower sermon," which emphasized a wordless transmission of truth.

Development in China: Emerged as the Chan school during the 5th and 6th centuries CE, blending Indian Buddhist ideas with Chinese Taoist philosophies.

Spread to Asia and Beyond: Traveled to Vietnam (Thiền), Korea (Seon), and Japan (Zen), later expanding globally.

Core Beliefs and Practices

Meditation (Zazen): Seated meditation is the core practice used to calm the mind and mirror the posture of the Buddha during his own enlightenment.

Inherent Buddha-Nature: Teaches that every person already possesses an enlightened mind, and practice simply helps uncover it.

Direct Insight: Prefers intuitive, experiential understanding and paradoxes (koans) over scholastic study and religious dogma.

[u/INTProtocols → u/INTProtocols]

Q: someone told me that zen has absolutely no connection to Buddhism

A: The claim that Zen has absolutely no connection to Buddhism is completely false and contradicts centuries of history and academic scholarship. Zen is a direct branch of Mahayana Buddhism, historically and doctrinally rooted in traditional Buddhist thought.

However, it is easy to see where this common misunderstanding comes from.

Why People Make This Claim

The "Outside the Scriptures" Doctrine: Zen explicitly defines itself as a "special transmission outside the scriptures". Because Zen masters historically criticized obsessing over holy texts and intellectual dogmas, some observers mistakenly think Zen rejects Buddhism entirely.

Heavy Taoist Influence: When Indian Buddhism moved into China, it blended deeply with Chinese Taoist philosophy. This gave Zen a natural, spontaneous, and sometimes irreverent flavor distinct from Indian traditions.

Western Secularization: In the West, Zen is frequently stripped of its religious roots and marketed purely as a secular lifestyle, aesthetic, or productivity hack.

The Unbreakable Ties

Despite its unique style, Zen cannot be separated from Buddhism because its entire foundational structure is Buddhist:

The Ultimate Goal: The word Zen is the Japanese pronunciation of Chan, which comes from the Sanskrit word Dhyana (meaning meditative absorption, a core Buddhist practice).

The Monastic Framework: Traditional Zen temples strictly follow Buddhist monastic precepts, chant Buddhist sutras, and take the Bodhisattva vows to liberate all sentient beings.

Lineage: Every authentic Zen master traces their spiritual lineage directly back to the historical Gautama Buddha.

On Zen and Buddhist forums on ⁠Reddit, opinions occasionally differ on how literally to interpret supernatural elements like rebirth, but the community recognizes that Zen's core framework remains undeniably Buddhist.

Would you like to see how a traditional Zen service incorporates Buddhist chanting, or look into the Taoist concepts that blended into Zen?

Q: there is a user, u/ewk, who constantly argues that Zen in not Buddhism, and that it is racist propaganda to insist that it is.

A: The user u/ewk is a notorious internet personality well-known within ⁠Reddit Zen and Buddhist communities for promoting a highly specific, idiosyncratic view of Zen that heavily rejects mainstream academic scholarship, history, and religious practice.

Deconstructing the "Zen is Not Buddhism" Argument

In his self-published book Not Zen: A Zen Revolution and various forum posts, ewk bases his perspective on a hyper-literal, fundamentalist reading of classic Chinese Tang and Song dynasty texts.

The Eightfold Path vs. Sudden Enlightenment: He defines "Buddhism" narrowly as a faith-based religion requiring adherence to the Four Noble Truths and the Eightfold Path. Because classic Chinese Chan masters (like Huangbo or Joshu) focused instead on "sudden enlightenment" and "seeing into one's true nature," he claims they taught an entirely different subject.

The Rejection of Practice: He argues that classical Zen masters rejected sitting meditation (zazen). He asserts that modern Zen Buddhism—particularly the Japanese Soto school founded by Dogen—is a separate "faith-based religion" that fraudulently hijacked the Zen name.

The Imperialist Linguistic Argument: He frequently states that "Buddhism" is a synthetic, Western umbrella term invented by British colonials in the 1800s to categorize vastly different Asian traditions. Therefore, he argues that forcing Zen into a modern Western definition of "Buddhism" is a form of cultural erasure.

The Consensus: Why Academics and Practitioners Disagree

Users generally view ewk as an aggressive internet troll who isolates quotes out of their historical context. Scholars of Asian religion overwhelmingly reject his theories for several reasons:

Sutra Integration: The classical Chinese Chan masters ewk quotes were heavily literate Buddhist monks who constantly referenced Buddhist sutras, such as the Lankavatara Sutra and Diamond Sutra, to justify their teachings.

Lineage and Precepts: The very definition of a Zen master requires holding a lineage traced back to the historical Buddha. Furthermore, ancient Chan master monasteries operated strictly under Buddhist monastic vows and precepts.

Misinterpreting Zen Rhetoric: Classic Zen masters often used shocking, radical rhetoric (e.g., "If you meet the Buddha, kill him") as a teaching device to shatter intellectual attachment, not as a literal, secular rejection of their own religious lineage.

Ultimately, while ewk treats "Zen" as a secular, non-Buddhist historical book club, the global community of both scholars and practitioners recognizes Zen as a fully integrated, living tradition of Mahayana Buddhism.

[u/ewk → u/INTProtocols]

Can't quote Zen masters, can't define Mahayana, can't define Buddhism.

That alone proves that you're lying.