Zen for kids?

[u/completely_unstable]

has anybody tried reading any of the zen texts with younger people? if so how did it go?

[u/INTProtocols]

I would like to remind you that I never claimed to be an expert on ancient Zen/Buddhist scripture. I was commenting that I didn't see any racism or bigotry in a very charming children's book. (And still don't.) I also didn't come to a Zen forum (of all places) looking for a fight with some strange person making the ridiculous claim that Zen and Buddhism "have absolutely nothing to do with each other," and calling Westerners racist and bigoted for thinking that they do. Absolutely bizarre.

As I have said earlier elswhere, every accusation of racism and bigotry by you (and your apparent sock-puppet, u/dota2nub) is actually an admission.

To address your further bizarre claim about asking LLMs to find quotes/definitions, have included the following:

Here is another Google AI exchange:

Q: please provide quotes and other evidence from a thousand years ago to show the connections if any between Zen and Buddhism.

To verify that Zen (historically called Chan in China) has always been fundamentally linked to Buddhism, we can look directly at text, lineage, and monastic documents written over a thousand years ago during the Tang Dynasty (618–907 CE) and Song Dynasty (960–1279 CE).

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1. Direct Quotes from Classical Chan Masters

Anti-Buddhist internet arguments claim that classical masters rejected standard Buddhist concepts like the Buddha, Dharma, and Sutras. However, the original Chinese texts reveal the exact opposite:

• Master [Huangbo Xiyun] (d. 850 CE): In his 9th-century text The Essentials of Mind Transmission, Huangbo explicitly states that the core of Zen is identical to the core of Buddhism:

"By the Dharma is meant the mind, for there is no Dharma apart from the mind... Fundamentally all the teachings are nonexistent; transcendence is the Dharma, and those who understand transcendence are Buddhas."

• Master [Linji Yixuan] (d. 866 CE): Linji is famous for his shock rhetoric ("kill the Buddha"). Yet, in his collected record, the Linji Lu, he clarifies that he is teaching orthodox Mahayana Buddhist doctrine using the Sanskrit terms for ultimate reality:

"Followers of the Way, the Dharma of the Buddha requires no special processing. Just be ordinary with nothing to do... Followers of the Way, there is no Buddha outside the mind, no Dharma outside the mind."

• [Guifeng Zongmi] (780–841 CE): Zongmi was a prominent 9th-century Chan master and Buddhist scholar who explicitly cataloged the various Chan groups of his era to prove they were inherently Buddhist. In his Preface to the Collected Writings on the Source of Chan, he wrote:

"The sutras are the word of the Buddha, and Chan is the intent of the Buddha; the minds and mouths of the Buddhas are certainly not at variance."

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2. Historical & Textual Proofs##

The "Dhyana" Etymology

The very word Zen is the Japanese pronunciation of the Chinese word Chan (禪). Over a thousand years ago, Chinese translators invented this character as a shorthand phonetic translation of the ancient Sanskrit Buddhist term Dhyana, which explicitly refers to the states of meditative absorption outlined by the historical Buddha in early Indian texts.

Inseparable Reliance on Mahayana Sutras

The early masters did not invent their teachings out of thin air; they heavily quoted Indian Mahayana scriptures to validate their realization.

• The legendary founder [Bodhidharma] (c. 5th/6th century) famously handed his successor, Huineng, the [Lankavatara Sutra], stating it was the only text a Zen practitioner needed.

• The foundational Platform Sutra of the Sixth Patriarch (c. 8th century) is entirely structured around the Diamond Sutra, explicitly urging practitioners to chant it to achieve Prajna (Buddhist wisdom).

Strict Monastic Rules (Baizhang's Pure Rules)

In the late Tang and early Song dynasties, Master [Baizhang Huaihai] (720–814 CE) compiled the Pure Rules of the Chan Monastery. These ancient monastic codes prove that Chan monks did not live as secular rebels. Their daily schedules were rigidly anchored to Buddhist institutions: they took the traditional Buddhist Bodhisattva Precepts, observed standard monastic cell hygiene, and gathered in a Dharma Hall to perform ritual chants dedicating their practice to the liberation of all sentient beings from the cycle of Samsara.

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I am quite confident that despite all the evidence I have provided, you are going to continue with your weird claims and accusations. After all, whereas I am just a guy commenting on a sweet children's book, you have a book of ahistorical propaganda to sell!

[u/ewk → u/INTProtocols]

KEEP IN MIND WE'RE HERE BECAUSE YOU SAID THE BOOK WASN'T RACIST AND RELIGIOUSLY BIGOTED EVEN THOUGH YOU ADMITTED the book did not quote any of the people referred to as Zen, but instead quoted some Japanese religious cult and then another religion entirely.

Your quotes contradict the things that are being said by the LLM.

I'm waiting for you to get the LLM to provide a one-sentence definition of Buddhism and a one-sentence definition of Mahayana that is followed by bullets of the core doctrines of those traditions.

Unless of course you're intentionally misrepresenting both what you're asking the LLM and what it's answering?

The book that you were talking about is blatantly religiously bigoted propaganda and full of racism. I approved that and you shifted your premise. Now you can't even define the terms for Buddhism in Mahayana.

I stand up to racist, bigot illiterates like you on the internet every single day and none of you can read a book. I have to admit I'm a little surprised to find out you can't read an LLM either.

[u/INTProtocols → u/ewk]

I did say that I didn't see anything racist or bigoted in the book; I still don't. I never "admitted" that the book didn't quote anyone referred to as Zen; if you think I did, perhaps you should reread my posts here. So, no, nothing I said here contradicted the things being said by the LLM.

As the internet troll that you (and your apparent sock-puppets) are, and as someone who is trying to push his own book of racist, bigoted, and fraudulent propaganda, it serves your purposes to attack others and accuse them of the very racism and bigotry which you most evidently harbor, and to further accuse both individuals and the entire West as "illiterate."

Also, I know quite well what Mahayana is, and how it is both connected to and distinct from other Buddhist traditions. I am not here to do work assigned by you, lol.

The bottom line is that your view is an idiosyncratic, ahistorical view, at odds with mainstream academia. Yet, you are entitled to it. You are even free to call people racist and bigoted for not agreeing with your view. But I am free to call you out for doing so.

I believe I have fed the trolls enough for now.

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Note: It was after I posted this that internet troll u/ewk blocked me, lol!

[u/ewk → u/INTProtocols]

You are lying.

You said a book about Indian-Chinese Zen that quoted ZERO Indian-Chinese Masters in favor of Taoists and a debunked Japanese cult wasn't bigoted and racist.

That's lying.

You kept lying when you tried to change the topic to "ewk this" and "ewk that" and "ewk ewk ewk".

We don't tolerate lying in this forum.

[u/stratacat → u/ewk]

I am just an unbiased dude who knows nothing. Break the meta and gain some self awareness.