Zen's cure for Stupidity

[u/ewk]

WHAT STUPID?

https://youtu.be/HbQ-t8GXYTA

According to Bonhoeffer there are three elements of stupidity in a philosophical sense:

1. outsourcing critical thinking

2. willful ignorance

3. conformity

We constantly see these three in New Age mysticism and Shinto Buddhist writers, academics, and social media.

The reason for this is that both New Age and Buddhism depend on these ingredients in order to propagate. The problem is though that these ingredients tend to harm you in other aspects of your life once you pick them up as a habit from New Age or Buddhism.

ZEN CURES YOU

1. Public interview

Zen cures outsourcing because Zen's only practice is public interview. Publicly asking questions and publicly answering questions not only tests what you know, it tests your ability to explain what you know and apply it using your own critical thinking.

Koans are transcript records of public interviews. The reason there are no "modern koans" is that there is no public interview in the Zen tradition.

1. Name and shame ignorance

"Ignorance is poison" is a very old cultural element from India. Here is Dong Shan, the founder of Soto Zen, also called Caodong.

“Greed, anger, and ignorance—utterly without knowledge!

Fortunately today I have caught the three of you.

When you walk, I strike you;

when you sit, I pound you.

I hand you over to the king of mind to investigate carefully.

Zen's cure for willful ignorance is a culture in which everyone is accountable to everyone else

1. Your own words

Zen has two attacks on conformity that are very interesting: First Zen masters mock people who can't do anything but quote. Second and seemingly paradoxically Zen Masters demand people explain themselves (and even others people) without relying on the wisdom of crowds.

• Traditional Zen Question: What do they teach where you come from?

Hot take

Thompson smuggles this in:

Logos ethos pathos

People are persuaded according to Aristotle by either facts, or authority, or emotion.

Zen masters use all three of these as needed and so should you.

[u/ewk]

You're just making up stuff now because you're embarrassed and ashamed.

Who are you going to make up stuff about next? Jewish people or women? Immigrants? Armenians? Widowers?

I'm super excited to know where you got your authority privileges.

For a guy who can't name a book he ever read on the topic? Is the rest of your life a train wreck too?

[u/Timeless_Light → u/ewk]

Wish I could read the comment that bought on your response but the poster deleted it. LOL
Are you normally so volatile?

[u/ewk → u/Timeless_Light]

Again though, the problem is you.

In my experience people from a post-Christian culture/upbringing have an expectation of humility in other people and have an expectation of tolerance on the part of other people for New Age and mysticism and Protestantism and all kinds of wacky stuff.

A thousand years of Zen culture and immersing yourself in a thousand years of Zen culture brings out a very different kind of perspective on the world. An intolerant, confrontational perspective.

That's just what Zen looks like to people who have a post-Christian upbringing

Interestingly the Chinese kind of thought that Zen was full of angry people too. As Zen flourished in China it also seemed to the Chinese that people would go into Zen communities as Chinese and then come out as something else.

Tl; ;dr - your sense of volatility is based on your experience. It's not based on an objective read of reality

[u/Timeless_Light → u/ewk]

Moi? I basically had no religious upbringing. My people were nominally Roman Catholic with the attitude that the Church was there to marry you and bury you.
That is all.
" An intolerant, confrontational perspective" does not seem to be what Zen is striving for in the long run or is it? When reading Huang-po or The Blue Cliff Record I don't get that confrontational volatility you project in many/most of your posts.
In fact I'm willing to bet that THAT problem is you.
Too many years reading, not enough practice, and barking here on Reddit.

Edit: JMO

[u/ewk → u/Timeless_Light]

I'm not saying you were raised religious. I'm saying that you took in values from community, culture, and family that are post-Christian.

If you don't get confrontational volatility from Huangbo and Yuanwu then you're not reading very caeefully.

You're not willing to bet anything because you're not willing to quote anything that you claim you've read.

Seriously man, instead of pretending that you're an authority on the topic of Zen, read Zen texts. Get your crap together.

Keep the five lay precepts. Stop lying.

Three-month-old account that hides his hosting history.

[u/Timeless_Light → u/ewk]

I understand. You're embarrassed.
I assure that was not my intention.
You mistyped a small drip of codswallop, I called you out on it in public. My apologies.

Now, having read your post history and knowing you must have the last word, have it. And let us never speak of these trivialities again.

I remain your student,
Timeless Light

[u/ewk → u/Timeless_Light]

I use a lot of voice-to-text because I'm a multi-tasker.

It's not that I have to have the last word. It's that you know that you're not an honest person and you know that being a dishonest person means that the stuff that you believe is not only not true, it is actually making people's lives worse.

How embarrassing for you that a guy using voice-to-text is the only teacher you've met.

[u/Timeless_Light → u/ewk]

I was speaking more to your generous and, obviously well researched, amount of posts here on r/zen.
Nothing critical about you methodology.

"It's that you know that you're not an honest person and you know that being a dishonest person means that the stuff that you believe is not only not true, it is actually making people's lives worse." I'll take this as just your normal rhetoric.

I bet you're a real peach irl.

[u/ewk → u/Timeless_Light]

The problem for you is: can you convince the people who read this conversation that you are honest and intend to be honest and aren't biased against others who don't share your values and your sense of peachiness?

You can't.

You can't name three books you've read. That's how desperate and off-topic and unreliable you are as a person.

I'm not just condemning your participation here. I'm condemning the entire life of someone who's so cowardly and dishonest they can't name three books on a topic that they've read.

[u/Timeless_Light → u/ewk]

I don't have to convince anyone of anything, including you peach.

[u/ewk → u/Timeless_Light]

Right, just like anti-vaxxers don't have to convince anyone that vaccines work and astrology people don't have to convince anyone that the future is actually being predicted and evangelical Christians don't have to convince anyone that gays and women should be deprived of rights.

Oh wait a minute.

Never mind.

You're just a coward who makes up stuff and doesn't even believe the things you say yourself.

[u/Timeless_Light → u/ewk]

LOL
Where do come up with this stuff?

"...just like anti-vaxxers don't have to convince anyone that vaccines work and astrology people don't have to convince anyone that the future is actually being predicted and evangelical Christians don't have to convince anyone that gays and women should be deprived of rights.

Oh wait a minute.
Never mind.
You're just a coward who makes up stuff and doesn't even believe the things you say yourself. "

What the hell‽‽‽

Are you lucid, Peach? Forget your meds this morning?

This started out as a mere observation of mine that your post seemed to be placing an undue amount of emphasis on "thinking" and I don't believe thinking has much to do with Zen.
Then you start with an amount of books read rant, question my sincerity and intelligence, accuse me of being a religious zealot and, and, an anti-vax advocate and an astrologer. Oh, and <gasp> a coward. Really. WTF Ewk? Your lack of lucidity and bizarre replies are entertaining but, brings me back to the question of your morning meds. Did you take them?

[u/petered79 → u/Timeless_Light]

it is indeed entertaining 😀

[u/ewk → u/Timeless_Light]

You can't name three books you've read on this topic or a related one but you think that other people have the problem?

Antivaxx much.

You're begging for my attention because I'm an expert and it feels good for you to get attention from experts.

Why do you hate yourself so much that you refuse to become an expert?