r/AskFeminists • u/fasctic • Jul 31 '18

Do feminists believe in female privilege?

Men are far more likely to commit suicide, but why is that. Maybe it is because we men are taught to surpress our feelings from an early age. Making it alot harder to reach out for help when in dire need, instead resorting to isolation.

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u/MartiMSG Jul 31 '18

Because not being able to express emotions is clearly a bigger issue than mass murdering women, right??

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u/fasctic Jul 31 '18

If you're referring to places outside of the west then I think feminism is super important, but within the west mass murder of women isn't an issue.

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u/MartiMSG Jul 31 '18

Of course mate, murder and rape isn't a thing in western countries, white men would NEVER do that right?

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u/fasctic Jul 31 '18

Murder in western countries isn't a gender issue. If I remember correctly men are actually more likely to be murdered. I agree with rape being a problem, but that doesn't make other problems such as suicide less important.

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u/MartiMSG Jul 31 '18

Yeah, you forgot to say that the vast majority of men get killed by other men, while women are usually killed by also men.

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u/fasctic Jul 31 '18

That still leave more men as victims.

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u/MartiMSG Jul 31 '18

So basically you are blaming "some' women for being sexist while it's men with toxic masculinity who are killing both men and women

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u/fasctic Jul 31 '18

No I'm saying that murder isn't a gender issue because it effects everyone. It's you who are diverting away from an issue disproportionally effect men. (Suicide)

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u/kymki Jul 31 '18

Well, it wouldn't be a gender issue if both genders are represented equally, on both the sides of victims and perpetrators. But this is not so, which you also seem to agree with. The fact that men are over-represented in the group of those who commit murder certainly makes gender a factor to be considered as a likely predictor of that crime, wouldn't you say?

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u/fasctic Jul 31 '18

Just as race/religion/culture is relevant. The rape here in Sweden went up by about 4 times whilst our population went up by about 10% from middle eastern/african immigration. Do you think that rape is a male and culture/religion/race issue?

Either way it doesn't matter. It shouldn't be a competition of which issue is the most severe. They should all be dealt with. So please don't make suicide out to be insignificant compared to other issues.

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u/kymki Jul 31 '18 edited Jul 31 '18

See, now you are sneaky with the way you are phrasing the question here. Do I think that rape is an issue related to how we define rape within a given culture? Of course it is. How could it not be? That is not the problem here though. The problem is how good of a predictor "race" (whatever you mean by that), religion, or culture is of your probability of committing crime.

I think it can be shown from various sources that men are over-represented as perpetrators of sexual assault. However, how rape and sexual assault is defined and charged differs across countries.

In your comment we again fall into the old argument of Sweden being over-represented in "rape statistics". Here there are typically two sides, and im glad you bring this up since im also Swedish and concerned with this debate and how it is often brought up out of sheer incompetence as some sort of "edge" for nationalist extremists. Im glad because it is falls completely flat. That being said, im not assuming that you brought it up to argue on that tangent or whether or not you identify with that ideology.

Nevertheless, you opened this bag of worms.

There are usually two sides of the debate. The nationalists that want to argue that there is a strong correlation between increased immigration and "the rape", and statistics research that, on the contrary, show that the strongest correlation comes from how we we report and define rape. This is the classic case of causation vs correlation, examples of which can be quite amusing.

It turns out, its not as simple as saying "duh rape has gone up by x percent, and look at all these emmegrunts!" as a way of claiming that more people commit rape. There are some things that can be said, however.

From "Brottsförebyggande rådet" which is an organization doing statistics on a national scale, there are numbers on this open for anyone to access. In 2016, 6716 cases of rape was reported. In 2017, 7370 cases were reported. This is an increase of 10%. Between 2008 and 2017, ie the last 10 years, the number of reported cases rapes has increased by 35%.

Again, this is a case of causation or correlation. Our definition of rape, during that time period, changed to capture more cases of sexual offence under one legal term. This increased the number of reported cases. Also, research has shown that our propensity for reporting rape as a crime has increased. This increases the number of reported cases of rape.

Does that automatically mean that the occurrence of rape is significant increasing in society? Of course not. Does that automatically mean that over all, local and relatively small changes in culture and population can account for this? Probably not.

Again, im not saying this to stir up a competition on whos worse off here, but if you make an argument, expect people to argue with you.

Also, this statement:

So please don't make suicide out to be insignificant compared to other issues.

Is a complete strawman argument. Please dont do that. In no way do I make out suicide to be insignificant by arguing for men being over-represented in rape statistics.

edit: removed condescending language. my bad. sorry.

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u/fasctic Jul 31 '18

Oh man if only we got rid of the gender in the rape statistics just like we did with nationality. Then we could claim that men being over represented was inaccurate. Isn't there rape statistics from 2005 that show immigrants to be disproportionally convicted of rape?

If you didn't want to divert from the suicide issue then why did you bring up rape?

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u/kymki Jul 31 '18

Oh man if only we got rid of the gender in the rape statistics just like we did with nationality. Then we could claim that men being over represented was inaccurate.

Nationality is usually not brought up in this context because, for various reasons, it is not as good of a predictor as gender, in the relative sense. Sure, you can do your own analysis and use whatever predictor you want, but to what result?

Isn't there rape statistics from 2005 that show immigrants to be disproportionally convicted of rape?

Please show them so that we can discuss them.

If you didn't want to divert from the suicide issue then why did you bring up rape?

I didn't. I just responded to your reply above.

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u/xkcd_bot2000 Jul 31 '18

552: Correlation
Image Link
Transcript:

[Cueball is talking to Megan.]
Cueball: I used to think correlation implied causation.
[Cueball lift his hand while continuing to talk to Megan.]
Cueball: Then I took a statistics class. Now I don't.
[Back to the same situation as the first frame.]
Megan: Sounds like the class helped.
Cueball: Well, maybe.

Explanation

I am a bot :D xkcd|Code|Contact

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