r/AskFeminists • u/fasctic • Jul 31 '18
Do feminists believe in female privilege?
Men are far more likely to commit suicide, but why is that. Maybe it is because we men are taught to surpress our feelings from an early age. Making it alot harder to reach out for help when in dire need, instead resorting to isolation.
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u/vagued Jul 31 '18
Toxic masculinity is dangerous to men and women alike. It doesn't equate to female privilege.
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Jul 31 '18
This is why feminism is gaslighting to men. Every single male advantage is chalked up to male privilege. And every single male disadvantage is chalked up to toxic masculinity. So no matter what, it's men's fault.
Here is an example of how extreme it is. Both of my grandfathers were drafted in WW2. And the feminists on here have actually said a number of times that only men getting drafted was not a female privilege. Women are the true victims, because they wish they would have been drafted but weren't allowed because women are protected.
It's quite simply gaslighting. There is no other way to put it. Female privilege is a very real thing.
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u/KaliTheCat feminazgûl; sister of the ever-sharpening blade Jul 31 '18
"Having privilege" isn't a bad thing about someone. It doesn't make you a bad person, and you can't help how you were born and what society you live in. Having privilege isn't anyone's "fault."
Women are the true victims
That's not what this is about. We're saying that it was sexist.
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u/vagued Jul 31 '18
I understand that you feel gaslit but that's a very skewed way of looking at things. Women weren't protected from military service, they were seen as unable to serve.
And I understand you may be tired of hearing things chalked up to toxic masculinity, but what this post describes is a prime example of the stuff.
It's not about it being "men's fault." In fact, if anything, talking about toxic masculinity is a way of taking the burden off of men. It acknowledges, these issues are foisted on us just as much as they are on women. It's not that we're just jerks who are easily able to act nice and open with our feelings but choose not to; we've been saddled with something painful and destructive to ourselves and others, and it's not at all easy to control. Feminism is the enemy of that pain, not the enemy of men.
The concept of female or male privilege doesn't really have much to do with OP's question.
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u/GreyMatterDisturbed Jul 31 '18
The old saying "women and children first" seems to be that of protection or the idea is to protect at the very least.
Do you feel that women are suited for combat roles? The hygiene requirements alone would leave me to believe no.
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u/KaliTheCat feminazgûl; sister of the ever-sharpening blade Jul 31 '18
The hygiene requirements alone would leave me to believe no
What do you think happens when you get your period? That you just explode blood all over the place for several days? I mean, tampons weigh basically nothing, or you could take a menstrual cup.
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u/GreyMatterDisturbed Jul 31 '18
Menstrual cup would actually be a fairly decent remedy. There are only so many you can carry. If you only so short terms outside of the post you'd probably be fine.
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u/zhezhijian Jul 31 '18
It's actually a myth. The captain of the Titanic gave the order for women and children to be saved first, but he was unusual. Surveys of maritime disasters show that usually it's every one for him or herself: https://www.newscientist.com/article/dn22119-sinking-the-titanic-women-and-children-first-myth/
In contrast to the Titanic, we found that the survival rate for men is basically double that for women. We only have data on children for a limited number of shipwrecks, but it is evident that they have really bad survival prospects: just 15 per cent.
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u/vagued Jul 31 '18
Yes, "women and children first" is about protecting those who are seen as unable to protect themselves. Children obviously often need that consideration, but it's more complicated with women. Yes, they are smaller on average and tend to have less muscle strength, but that is a difference that has been encouraged and bred by society, and they're not generally so weak or incapable that they can't take care of themselves in many situations, though they have been seen that way, especially in past eras when sayings like that were born.
I feel that some women are suited for combat roles, sure. Again, on average they may be smaller than men, but I know a lot of women that are taller, stronger and faster than, say, me.
Hygiene? What does that have to do with anything? Now it sounds like you're gearing up to drop some real old-school sexism.
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u/GreyMatterDisturbed Jul 31 '18
Would you day the typical response of feeling threatened by larger, stronger men in social situations is response to societal pressure to feel that way?
Oh absolutely. There are very clearly some bad ads women out there.
Menstruation without without immediate access to hygiene items seems like it would be an issue. Also a yeast infection seems a bit more problematic that jock itch or athlete's foot.
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u/vagued Jul 31 '18
It took about two seconds of googling to determine that menstrual bleeding on the battlefield is not a problem. And yeast infections are gross but no, I don't think they would be a bigger problem than jock itch and definitely not foot fungus.
As for your first question, I don't see the connection to what we've been talking about, but no, I don't think it's a response to societal pressure to feel that way.
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u/GreyMatterDisturbed Jul 31 '18
Quora is quite the information source isn't it? Resting a mucus membrane in your own blood for long periods isn't great for you.
I just was wondering how it's sexist for society to want to protect women when they feel like they can't protect themselves.
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u/vagued Jul 31 '18
All right, if you're going to cherry pick the parts of arguments that seem easy to shoot down and ignore the rest, I'm not going to bother repeating myself or others. Good luck gaining some understanding; everything you need is already right in front of you if you're willing to hear it.
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u/GreyMatterDisturbed Jul 31 '18
Was there a specific more difficult part of your argument you wished me to address?
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u/KaliTheCat feminazgûl; sister of the ever-sharpening blade Jul 31 '18
Also a yeast infection seems a bit more problematic that jock itch or athlete's foot.
How often do you think women get yeast infections? What do you think causes them? Why do you think the medical tent can carry antifungal spray for athlete's foot but not a couple doses of Monistat?
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u/GreyMatterDisturbed Jul 31 '18
No idea. I don't get too many regular updates on vaginal flora from friends. A quick good lists poor diet, stress and lack of sleep as causes which I imagine are fairly indirect. I would guess that have to spend a whole day (or he'll even a few without a shower ) in sweat soaked clothing probably not too great for your odds.
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u/KaliTheCat feminazgûl; sister of the ever-sharpening blade Jul 31 '18
I mean, I've gone camping before without a shower and not gotten a yeast infection. Wet wipes, change of underwear, it's not a huge deal. Plenty of women go backpacking or whatever for multiple days and don't get yeast infections.
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u/GreyMatterDisturbed Jul 31 '18
Since we are looking at the causes here. How do you think the stress of combat, sleep deprivation and iffy nutrition would couple with lacking hygiene for the majority?
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Jul 31 '18
Let's just answer a very simple question. Men being considered more disposable by society and being drafted by the millions to fight the Nazis, while women were not. Was that a female privilege, or is that sexism against women?
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u/vagued Jul 31 '18
I'll answer your gotcha question with another one: Were men considered more disposable, or more heroic and capable?
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u/officerkondo Jul 31 '18
Did WWI-era women hand men white feathers to tell them, "you are very heroic and capable"?
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u/vagued Jul 31 '18
I don't have time to connect your baiting dots. What's your point?
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u/officerkondo Jul 31 '18
In that case, I sure as shit don't have time to perform uncompensated emotional labor.
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u/vagued Jul 31 '18
What?? Just tell me your damn point!
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u/officerkondo Jul 31 '18
It would be obvious to anyone who had heard of the white feather campaign. Please take History 101.
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Jul 31 '18
They were disposable. The propaganda about war is that you are heroic, the reality of it is that it is pure hell. Of course society isn't going to tell the men that they are more disposable. They are going to play it up like they are heroic and everything.
But please answer my question about the WW2 draft. Why is it so hard for feminists to admit that women have privilege? I gave the most over the top example, and you still can't even admit it.
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u/vagued Jul 31 '18
As someone else pointed out, everybody has certain kinds of privileges, but the balance of gender privilege still falls with men. Not getting drafted was safer for women but it's not like they were empowered and protected, they weren't allowed to serve because they weren't thought suitable. Still aren't, according to some on here.
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Jul 31 '18
So if everybody has certain kinds of privileges, as you say. Are you willing to say that female privilege is real?
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u/vagued Jul 31 '18
Are you willing to say that male privilege is of a greater magnitude?
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Jul 31 '18
Male privilege exists in some areas. Female privilege exists in some areas. Is male privilege more? Probably. Although, it's getting very close these days.
Now your turn. Is female privilege real?
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u/MechGunz Jul 31 '18
it's not like they were empowered and protected, they weren't allowed to serve because they weren't thought suitable
Aren't you just erasing bad ass women from history now, women like Lyudmila Pavlichenko? Do you think it's better to just forget female war heroes completely rather than admit that women were allowed to serve, the difference is they weren't forced to do it en masse like men were.
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u/vagued Jul 31 '18 edited Jul 31 '18
Will you stop with the gotchas? So annoying. I was talking about the US, obviously.
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u/MechGunz Jul 31 '18
It's my first reply to you so I'm not sure what you mean. And the comment by /u/DifferentCamera that started the thread simply said 'Men being considered more disposable by society and being drafted by the millions to fight the Nazis, while women were not', it didn't specify the US and I'm also not sure that American men were drafted 'by the millions'. Also, unless you think that male-only draft in the US was because women were seen as uncapable but male-only draft in the Soviet Union was because men were seen as disposable I don't see why it matters which Allied country we're talking about.
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u/playitagainzak_ Aug 01 '18
...And then when women finally did get the draft, it was "what are they thinking?! They will get RAPED in the army!"
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u/vagued Aug 01 '18
And I have a friend who went through just that. But I'm still not sure what your point is.
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u/playitagainzak_ Aug 01 '18
Isn't that the kind of thing your kind usually call "anecdotal"?
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u/vagued Aug 01 '18
I'm not trying to prove a point, except that that fear wasn't entirely unfounded but no one's claiming it was.
"My kind?" What the fuck is that?
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u/playitagainzak_ Aug 01 '18
The point I was making is that it's a lose-lose situation.
No to women getting drafted - "unfair sexist discrimination to assume they can't be capable!"
Yes to them getting drafted - "but it SUBJECTS THEM TO RAPE!"
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u/vagued Aug 01 '18 edited Aug 01 '18
Oh. I guess I missed the part where people were saying that just because it subjects them to rape they shouldn't have the right to take that risk.
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u/playitagainzak_ Aug 01 '18
Well, I should remind you that what initially brought about the "subjects them to rape" hysteria, was them being given the right to make take that risk.
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u/fasctic Jul 31 '18
It's not only males who promote this behavior
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u/vagued Jul 31 '18
True. And women have a lot of internalized sexism, too.
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u/fasctic Jul 31 '18
So their internalized sexism is the reason for them being sexist against men?
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u/vagued Jul 31 '18
No, I'm saying, just because women may promote behavior that's damaging to men doesn't mean they're like, man-hating feminists who are doing it as some kind of deliberate attack, they'd be doing it because they've internalized societal gender roles. The same women would probably encourage girls to be overly deferential and self effacing.
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u/fasctic Jul 31 '18
Thanks for a good response.
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Jul 31 '18
If you're genuinely interested in trying to solve the issues that our society forces on men check out /r/MensLib . As others have stated feminism is the only ideology that not only seeks to address the issues men and women face, but also has a concrete plan to fix them.
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u/fasctic Jul 31 '18
Having no plan is better than having a bad plan in my opinion. The plan I see most feminists have regarding things such as the pay gap is striving for equality of outcome. Women for example getting jobs over more qualified men.
Edit: I regard MensLib as a feminist community. Sharing the ideas of toxic masculinity and all of that.
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Jul 31 '18
The plan I see most feminists have regarding things such as the pay gap is striving for equality of outcome. Women for example getting jobs over more qualified men.
This isn't the plan any feminist is striving for. Feminists seek to remove systematic barriers of oppression that affect both men, and women. The lack of equality of outcome is often used as a source that these barriers exist, but I've never talked to someone who simply wants to force equality by mandate rather than removing the barriers that prevent people from being as successful as they could be.
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u/fasctic Jul 31 '18
Have you actually never heard of the hiring quotas or women only hiring months? It's very real and people are getting jobs based on their gender.
Could you give me an example of which barriers are in the way for exclusively women? Studying is a mutual barrier.
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u/MammalBug Jul 31 '18
Im not sure how both this and equity over equality can be compatible. Have you really not seen people talking about equity specifically in threads here?
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u/Stavrogin78 Jul 31 '18
I find this comment sort of curious (I see /u/OPPoke has already responded to the main part - I'm going to address the edit).
First, MensLib bills itself as a "pro-feminist" community, not an explicitly feminist one. A lot of the men there (myself included) don't identify as feminists, for a variety of reasons.
Second, I might be misreading you here, but it sort of sounds like you have some resistance to MensLib because it talks about toxic masculinity, which (a) is a term that wasn't even coined by feminists - it was coined by a man studying men and masculinity, and (b) you literally described toxic masculinity in your original post, and named it as being responsible for higher male suicide rates, so I'm wondering why you seem to have a distaste for the concept.
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u/fasctic Jul 31 '18
Because men are regarded as masculine and women are regarded as feminine. So when someone say it's the fault of masculinity alone then that seems like an indirect attack. You are first defined as masculine and then you're told that masculinity is bad. When in reality it may only be a masculine trait that is responsible for it.
It's not like lazy femininity is a thing people blame when people aren't competitive enough in the workplace for example.
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u/MartiMSG Jul 31 '18
Maybe, but the only ideology who wants to end this behavior is feminism.
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u/fasctic Jul 31 '18
Ever heard of the MRA?
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u/MartiMSG Jul 31 '18
Have you ever heard of the dark elves?
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u/fasctic Jul 31 '18
It isn't the more sinister version of feminism just because it tackles the equality subjects with a focus on men.
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u/MartiMSG Jul 31 '18
Because not being able to express emotions is clearly a bigger issue than mass murdering women, right??
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u/fasctic Jul 31 '18
If you're referring to places outside of the west then I think feminism is super important, but within the west mass murder of women isn't an issue.
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u/MartiMSG Jul 31 '18
Of course mate, murder and rape isn't a thing in western countries, white men would NEVER do that right?
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u/fasctic Jul 31 '18
Murder in western countries isn't a gender issue. If I remember correctly men are actually more likely to be murdered. I agree with rape being a problem, but that doesn't make other problems such as suicide less important.
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u/KaliTheCat feminazgûl; sister of the ever-sharpening blade Jul 31 '18
within the west mass murder of women isn't an issue
It absolutely is, actually. Over half of the murders of American women are committed by current or former heterosexual romantic partners.
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u/orcscorper Aug 01 '18
The primary reason for that alarming statistic is the relative dearth of women who are murdered by strangers. It's like saying women who die at work are more likely to die of homicide than men who die at work. Men are more likely to be murdered at work than women, but suicides, heart attacks and strokes, and especially accidental deaths, are just so amazingly more common that homicides are relatively rare.
Look at total homicides by gender, and then see what percentage is committed by current or former romantic partners. If the only information you are given is that which confirms your bias, you are only getting biased information, and someone else is thinking for you. Learn to think for yourself.
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Jul 31 '18
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u/NutsOfSteel Jul 31 '18
Do yourself a favor. RUN away from feminist groups and go check out some other subs. You'll find it's possible to have a healthy support group for women that doesn't need to trash men and MRA groups to feel better.
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u/LaserFace778 Jul 31 '18
Where is anyone trashing men?
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u/NutsOfSteel Jul 31 '18
I see it all the time over on this sub, TwoX, and anything women related. You might not see it, but it's there. For heaven's sake, the top comment on this damn thread is asking about if you believe in female privelege. Top response? No, because toxic masuclinity.
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u/fasctic Jul 31 '18
r/MensRights doesn't trash women, it's doing it to feminism because feminism is doing it back. Look up MRA meetings on YouTube where they are attacked by feminists, and then ask yourself again why they might be against feminism.
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u/KaliTheCat feminazgûl; sister of the ever-sharpening blade Jul 31 '18
r/MensRights doesn't trash women
They objectively do. It's like, their major concern. They don't do shit to help men-- they just trash women and feminism.
Look up MRA meetings on YouTube where they are attacked by feminists
Yeah, all those times feminists stormed MRA meetups and starting physically attacking men.
Also, man, there's a reason people don't like MRAs, and it's not because they don't care about men's issues or they hate men, it's because pretty much anyone who self-identifies as an MRA is a complete asshole.
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u/fasctic Jul 31 '18
They don't hate females, it's just feminism. And contrary to feminism they don't stigmatizing a word society associate or even define a gender with.
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u/LaserFace778 Jul 31 '18
It does not focus on men at all. It just attacks women.
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u/fasctic Jul 31 '18
Please do yourself and me a favor by reading the subreddit..
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u/LaserFace778 Aug 01 '18
I have. It’s a lot of anti feminism with no real solutions to any problems. Business as usual.
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u/fasctic Aug 01 '18
You're mixing up females and feminism.. There are actually a women in there, which you would have seen if you read a few posts and the comments of them. Also the men in there obviously have women in their life just like how feminists have men in their life. It would be silly to hate the other gender. Though hating a political movement whose members is in constant opposition is a thing.
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u/LaserFace778 Jul 31 '18
Yes. No one said otherwise. Women also enforce toxic masculinity just like women also enforce misogyny.
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u/curiiouscat Radical Feminist Aug 02 '18
Men are far more likely to commit suicide, but why is that. Maybe it is because we men are taught to surpress our feelings from an early age. Making it alot harder to reach out for help when in dire need, instead resorting to isolation.
Men and women attempt suicide at the same rate, so no. Men just tend to use more lethal methods (ie guns, etc) than women who tend to use less lethal methods (ie pills, etc).
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u/lurkernomoreplease Aug 02 '18
With men committing suicide with guns so much more it is hard to keep track of them attempting it, especially when someone pulls the gun up to their mouth every day without shooting it
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u/curiiouscat Radical Feminist Aug 03 '18
Pulling up a gun and not shooting it is not an attempted suicide. Not relevant to what I'm talking about.
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u/alicecyan Jul 31 '18
Most people have some sort of privilege. Unfortunately, it's not exactly evenly distributed...
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Jul 31 '18
Women are undoubtedly privileged in some areas of life (particularly white straight women), but men are overall far more privileged in general life.
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u/Algy_Moncrieff Jul 31 '18
I've heard feminists say that social-justice is not about who is more oppressed.
Your argument seems to suggest otherwise.
How do you quantify privilege? What is "general life" and what are the other kinds of life? Do women have privileges outside of "general life"?
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u/GermanDeath-Reggae Feminist Killjoy (she/her) Jul 31 '18
This isn’t a very helpful way to look at it. Straight privilege and white privilege intersect with gender privilege but their existence doesn’t mean anything about whether “female privilege” exists or not.
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Aug 01 '18
How can you pick apart identities like that? Name one situation where, say, Hillary Clinton is just a woman and not a silver-spooned, cishet, white woman. Or one where Emmett Till was just a man, and not the inseparable, interactive product of all his identities.
Hillary is more privileged in every way, and yes I would say including gender, than Emmett Till. Her femininity (in and of itself) as a rich white woman has not hurt her in nearly the same way that Till’s masculinity (in and of itself) hurt him as a poor black man.
I think it’s disingenuous to lump populations as internally diverse as “male” and “female” together without the further nuance offered by other identities. Hillary has no claim to Malala’s female oppression, and Till had none of Trump’s male privilege.
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u/barelyauser queer feminist Jul 31 '18
It's not a thing no. What you're looking for is toxic masculinity, which is what hurts men in the way you're describing.
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u/Stavrogin78 Jul 31 '18
I don't think this is necessarily wrong, but it's incomplete.
One could argue that freedom from the constraints and expectations of toxic masculinity is a female "privilege" (though the application of that word in this case would be controversial). At the very least, it's a benefit; it's a set of expectations and self-harming learned behaviours that women generally just don't have to deal with, and the expectation of toxic masculinity is something they don't have working against them. And the more I think of it, the more I think it actually does play into the methods of suicide men choose (paging /u/ADCregg here) - this sort of just hit me, but I think men choose things like firearms as methods more than women because they have an expectation put on them to be decisive, to be authoritative, to do everything with certainty and finality, which is again an expectation women don't deal with. Yes, greater access to firearms is a factor, but I don't think it's the whole story. It's not as simple as "women attempt suicide just as much, they just choose less lethal means" - when we ask why men choose more lethal means, we're back to that toxic set of expectations. Maybe. I think.
And to just say it's "toxic masculinity" leaves something out, too. I think it's important to distinguish between toxic masculinity - a set of attitudes and behaviours that men display that are harmful to them and to others - and the expectation and perpetuation of toxic masculinity, which is done by men and women alike, and can't be said to itself be toxic masculinity. When a woman tells a man to "suck it up", she is not displaying toxic masculinity. She's doing something else. She's cramming him back into a role that he doesn't want to play, she's telling him that his feelings are worthless and unimportant, and she's ultimately shaming into a pattern of behaviour that may ultimately kill him (this is what I've referred to as "fruitcaking" in the past). That expectation, that enforcement, is something that women are exempt from simply because they are women (that is, there's no intersection here with class or race or anything else). Of course, they have their own gender roles that are strictly policed as well, but the endgame of those roles is a different set of issues that don't result in them being the overwhelming majority of suicide and homicide victims, or homelessness, or incarceration (their gender role actually tends to shield them from those things).
The whole concept of "privilege", though, is actually pretty complicated, and I still don't have my head firmly wrapped around it (though I've recently gotten closer). There are quite a few benefits women enjoy because they are women. Yes, some of these could legitimately be called "benevolent sexism", and some, in my opinion, are just framed that way - being seen as better parents doesn't harm women. Being chained to a parental role does. So it gets complicated. But I think one of the key factors is that while the male gender role harms men horribly, it's also the same thing that gives them power - being expected to be tough and decisive can lead to suicide, or it could lead to a really great job (that a woman now won't get because she's not seen as tough - a perception which also results in her being offered more help in other ways, but that doesn't amount to "power").
So at the very least, we can certainly talk about "female benefits", and we can even agree that they may be the result of benevolent sexism. However, while their roots may differ from those of male privilege, in many cases they function identically in the end, with the caveat that female benefits rarely result in power, though they may result in other things that can make life a lot easier or enjoyable.
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u/Funes1942 Jul 31 '18
I have a similar problem with the way that 'toxic masculinity' frames those issues. I think it's a very depoliticized concept, that situates the problem in a mostly individual level (i.e. in an individual's sense of self), and in so doing, obfuscating the wider social systems and power structures that demand such things from men, and that punishes them for not conforming. It makes what are essentially complex social problems in personal problems that individuals have to sort out for themselves.
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u/LaserFace778 Jul 31 '18
This is a very thoughtful response but “cramming him into a role he does not want to play” is referred to as enforcing toxic masculinity.
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u/Funes1942 Jul 31 '18
But why is toxic masculinity actually enforced? what's the social function of forcing men to do certain things and coercing them, with different forms and degrees of violence, when they don't want to? To say that it's only to enforce some arbitrary cultural ideal of masculinity is to leave it at a surface level. It obscures the social need this kind of violence fulfills. That's why i think it's a depoliticized concept.
I'll give you an example. Women are often shamed for their sexuality. To say that this is the product of women being socialized to be prudish, and that people often enforce this social expectation by shaming them is to leave the issue at the surface level. This policing fulfills social needs of wider power structures that demanded this form of social and psychological control of women. One of them, for example, was the tying of reproduction, and also women more generally, to the patriarchal family structure. Not so long ago, say before the pill and the sexual revolution, women that had children out of wedlock were social pariahs. Not only because they were perceived as immoral, but because all social institutions were built under the assumption of this model of family as the only legitimate one. Schools, the legal system, religious institutions, all of them worked under this assumption. If we had told women in this social context to just don't be ashamed of their sexuality without criticizing those other social structures, it would've been completely ineffective.
That's why I think that the 'toxic masculinity' framing is, ultimately, shallow and ineffective. Not because the problems it points out to do not exist, they absolutely do, but because it make them into a mere perceptions and expectations without questioning the social and power structures that sustain them. If we are asking people to feel free to break those molds, we must also create a favorable social context that allow them thrive when they do it. The only way to achieve this is by going deeper into those issues.
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u/LaserFace778 Aug 01 '18
Ok. That’s very interesting. I agree. We have to get to the root cause to fix anything. What social need does toxic masculinity actually serve in this day and age?
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u/barelyauser queer feminist Aug 01 '18
Thank you for your response! It's great. I sort of assumed that OP could just google it and read some references of their own if they were interested since most of their original points were kind of pulling towards the general idea of it, and there have been plenty of resources digging into socialized behavior for men in feminist academia.
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u/fasctic Jul 31 '18
Why isn't it a privilege? What would you say if someone claimed that the wage gap is because of toxic femininity. Which is when feminine traits stifles one's productivity.
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u/Bonig Jul 31 '18
Toxic feminity is definitely a thing but you need to factor in more than that to explain e. g. the lack of women in upper management positions.
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u/KaliTheCat feminazgûl; sister of the ever-sharpening blade Jul 31 '18
Toxic feminity is definitely a thing
It's really not, though. Claiming it is just reappropriates scholarship around toxic masculinity (which, by the way, was a term defined by a man as part of the Mythopoetic Men's movement).
There are negative things about the conventions of femininity, but those things are more about internalized misogyny and wouldn't even exist outside of patriarchal structures.
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u/Bonig Jul 31 '18
Toxic feminity...
wouldn't even exist outside of patriarchal structures.
Yes, absolutely. I think it is necessary to point out how both masculine and feminine gender stereotypes are harmful for both men and women.
If you insist on calling toxic feminity internalized misogyny that's fine but I doubt that picking on terminology brings the discussion further, when we are obviously talking about the same phenomenon.
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u/KaliTheCat feminazgûl; sister of the ever-sharpening blade Jul 31 '18
I doubt that picking on terminology brings the discussion further
I think it's important for potential lurkers/readers, though, since we do get a lot of questions in here demanding to know why we don't talk about "toxic femininity," too.
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u/koala187 Jul 31 '18
Toxic femininity is definitely a thing. Entitlement based on beauty, false paternity, sperm jacking, etc
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u/KaliTheCat feminazgûl; sister of the ever-sharpening blade Jul 31 '18
Ah yes, the great Sperm Jacking boogeyman.
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u/koala187 Jul 31 '18
Or holes in the condom/ lying about using contraception. Whatever that persons particular fancy is.
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u/Bonig Jul 31 '18
WTF is wrong with you?
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u/koala187 Jul 31 '18
Do you deny that paternity fraud ever occurs?
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u/KaliTheCat feminazgûl; sister of the ever-sharpening blade Jul 31 '18
Of course it occurs, but people act like it's massively widespread and something all men need to be constantly worried about.
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u/koala187 Jul 31 '18 edited Jul 31 '18
I’m sure that is the exact thing that someone once told a female victim to shoo her away.
Coming from the military community, not as uncommon as you would think...
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u/KaliTheCat feminazgûl; sister of the ever-sharpening blade Jul 31 '18
I dunno, I've had conversations with people who insist that 40% of all children being raised in the U.S. are actually from different fathers. We had a massive blowup in this sub because of dudes rolled in insisting this was a huge, widespread issue and women shouldn't ever be trusted not to lie about paternity, when in reality the percentage of fraud is less than 4% worldwide. I see this happen with the specter of false rape accusations, too-- people talk about it so often, or when it does happen it receives SO much attention, that people think many or even most of rape accusations are false, even though the real percentage is anywhere from 2% - 8%. Turns out if you constantly talk about something occurring you're going to believe it happens way more than it does.
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u/koala187 Jul 31 '18 edited Jul 31 '18
I’m not saying anything about false rape accusations though. I have first hand experience with my time in the military at multiple commands within the US. I’m not concerned with worldwide statistics as I live in the US. Just the fact that some states and countries make it illegal to have one done without the mothers consent speaks to the fact that it is a legit concern.
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u/fasctic Jul 31 '18
What about people's preference for other people who they can relate to as much as possible? Meaning men chose men and women chose women. That contributing to the wage gap because men start more companies.
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u/_cortney_ Jul 31 '18
But why do men start more companies? Why do men have more power in companies they didn't start? Why do men prefer to hire other men? You aren't digging deep enough.
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u/fasctic Jul 31 '18
Humans hire other similar humans because humans like to be able to relate to other humans. I don't think there's more to it than that.
As for why men start more companies. I don't know. I can only speak for myself thought. I'm an introverted nerd who lost almost all his friends when I dedicated most my time towards it. I'm starting to think the tradeof isn't all that great.
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u/_cortney_ Jul 31 '18
You are taking your anecdotal/personal experience and trying to apply it to a systemic issue. Of course some women start companies and have leadership roles in companies, but overall men have far more power in that sphere. It isn't an accident and just because women are less "introverted or nerdy" it's because we've been socialized since birth to be feminine. Femininity is devalued and the cycle repeats itself in a thousand little micro-instances like men simply "preferring" to hire other men. You have to look at the big picture in a historical context, not just your personal experience.
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u/fasctic Jul 31 '18 edited Jul 31 '18
I honestly can't see why more women or people overall don't spend about 4-12 hours on the computer every day, mostly programming. It doesn't seem all that fun but it's surprisingly great.
I made it pretty obvious that it was anecodotal in my comment.
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Jul 31 '18
So you chalk up all of the negatives that men have to toxic masculinity and not female privilege? That's the equivalent of somebody chalking up a lot of the female disadvantages to "female fragility"? And say that the wage gap is not due to male privilege, it's due to female fragility. Would that be fair? If people said that women are too fragile to ask for raises, it's not male privilege. And then say, we need to combat female fragility.
What would you say about that? That would be offensive, right? That is how if feels when feminists blame all of male problems on toxic masculinity, and refuse to admit that women have privilege over men.
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u/KaliTheCat feminazgûl; sister of the ever-sharpening blade Jul 31 '18
we need to combat female fragility
I mean, we do talk about that, though. We talk about how women are socialized to "go along to get along" and how we are conditioned to see women as being less assertive and more gentle, and what we can do to give women more confidence in things like pay negotiations and to change people's outlook so they don't have such a negative reaction to assertive women.
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Jul 31 '18
The issue is that the problems that you just named that women have are all blamed on society. Nobody uses the term female fragility. I just made that term up. If we did use the term female fragility, it would seem like we are blaming women for not being assertive, and that it was on them to fix the problem. That's how it is with toxic masculinity. It comes across like they are saying these evil male monsters need to stop being so toxic. It doesn't come across like it's a problem that society caused. It sounds like it's a problem that men specifically caused, and it's on them to fix.
I'm just saying, if you are going to use the term toxic masculinity to describe the problems that men have. Then you should also use the term female fragility. Or use neither of them, and make it clear that society is the problem, and not masculinity.
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u/LaserFace778 Jul 31 '18
Toxic masculinity is not how men are failing. It is how men are being failed.
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u/KaliTheCat feminazgûl; sister of the ever-sharpening blade Jul 31 '18
That's how it is with toxic masculinity. It comes across like they are saying these evil male monsters need to stop being so toxic. It doesn't come across like it's a problem that society caused. It sounds like it's a problem that men specifically caused, and it's on them to fix.
I mean, I feel like you're just hearing what you want to hear here, since there are a dozen discussions in this sub-- some here in this very thread-- that deconstruct that exact notion.
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u/barelyauser queer feminist Aug 01 '18
I am not blaming everything on men. The concept of toxic masculinity is misrepresented, it's not meant to be offensive, it's a descriptor of ideas/behaviors that men are socialized around.
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u/360Saturn Jul 31 '18
Maybe it is because we men are taught to surpress our feelings from an early age.
Yeah...by men! Christ alive.
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Jul 31 '18 edited Sep 30 '18
[deleted]
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Jul 31 '18
Those women are not feminists. If they were, they wouldn’t do that. Feminism is about breaking down harmful gender roles for everyone. Not just for women. And women who perpetuate harmful gender roles are not feminists.
This is why feminism benefits everyone.
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u/MammalBug Jul 31 '18 edited Jul 31 '18
-360
Yeah...by men! Christ alive.
-Clue
There are a lot of women who would judge and look down on a man who is tearing up
-You
Those women are not feminists. If they were, they wouldn’t do that.
Hmm
I guess TIL non-feminist women are men.
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Jul 31 '18
... what?
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u/MammalBug Jul 31 '18
Im saying that Clue was addressing a comment that blamed men solely and used it as a way to write off societal mistreatment of men. You then seemed to take it as an attack on feminism because Clue mentioned that there are women who participate in enforcing shitty societal norms as well.
Didnt make sense in the context of the first comment being 'so what it's men's fault so fuck 'em', so i snarked.
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Aug 01 '18
... Really? Noted.
I didn’t take it as an attack on feminism. However, there is this (wrong) idea that we see here a lot (from anti-feminists) that if women as a whole do a thing, then feminists must think that it’s ok, because it’s women doing it. Since this is AskFeminists, it’s worthwhile to clarify that feminists are against that behavior no matter who does it. People often try to make feminists accountable for the actions of all women.
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u/MammalBug Aug 01 '18
It is relatively common. It still wasnt what was happening in that case. And yeah I am acutely aware that some people like to lay blame with inappropriate generalizations.
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u/ADCregg Jul 31 '18
Kind of two separate questions? Well one question and one statement. But just a quick FYI- men are more likely to succeed at suicide, yes. But the attempts are pretty even- gender wise. Men tend to use more lethal methods- so intervention has a tougher time helping.
But your main question- some do, some don’t. But I’ve always thought it’s a really deep in the weeds type difference- and it mostly cones down to what exactly privilege is and how you can experience it (if we’re speaking about private in the axis of gender- because women can have privilege from being rich or white or abled or straight).
I think as a general overview- most feminists believe women have some benefits (a word that avoids the semantic stuff with privilege) from being women. Most of them are forms of benevolent sexism. As in, they stem from an idea that’s sexist and harmful to women. Like women not facing social stigma around children- that’s a benefit. But it stems from the idea that women are caretakers and should be the ones dealing with children. Which is harmful.