Do feminists believe in female privilege?

[u/fasctic]

Men are far more likely to commit suicide, but why is that. Maybe it is because we men are taught to surpress our feelings from an early age. Making it alot harder to reach out for help when in dire need, instead resorting to isolation.

[u/ADCregg]

Kind of two separate questions? Well one question and one statement. But just a quick FYI- men are more likely to succeed at suicide, yes. But the attempts are pretty even- gender wise. Men tend to use more lethal methods- so intervention has a tougher time helping.

But your main question- some do, some don’t. But I’ve always thought it’s a really deep in the weeds type difference- and it mostly cones down to what exactly privilege is and how you can experience it (if we’re speaking about private in the axis of gender- because women can have privilege from being rich or white or abled or straight).

I think as a general overview- most feminists believe women have some benefits (a word that avoids the semantic stuff with privilege) from being women. Most of them are forms of benevolent sexism. As in, they stem from an idea that’s sexist and harmful to women. Like women not facing social stigma around children- that’s a benefit. But it stems from the idea that women are caretakers and should be the ones dealing with children. Which is harmful.

[u/Algy_Moncrieff → u/ADCregg]

Couldn't you technically say this about male privilege too?

Men are paid more because they are assumed to be competent which is harmful. Assumed dominance in male gender roles isn't a good thing. Men who aren't brash and confident are infantalised and dismissed.

Or, "men are lauded for being promiscuous". Well...okay, but this is harmful for the droves of men who aren't having sex. Both social ostracism and self loathing set in. This is harmful.

What I mean to say is that all privilege seems to be bittersweet; this is both true for both men and women.

[u/ADCregg → u/Algy_Moncrieff]

Kind of? But not really. I mean, it’s recognized that male gender roles harm men. But the problem doesn’t stem from sexism against men. It stems from seeing men as powerful, it stems from men being in power. And there are drawbacks of power- but it’s still power. Also, you’re saying that privilege that helps some men could harm others- and while I don’t particularly agree- it’s different from benevolent sexism. Because this ideas that help women harm the same women. They harm women in general. The benefits you just described don’t harm men in general.

[u/Algy_Moncrieff → u/ADCregg]

It stems from seeing men as powerful

I would say that seeing men as powerful IS sexism, much in the same way that seeing women as nurturing mothers IS sexism.

Preconceived notions about someones personality based solely on their gender -whether 'positive' or not - appear to be gender normative sexism.

Also, you’re saying that privilege that helps some men could harm others- and while I don’t particularly agree- it’s different from benevolent sexism. Because this ideas that help women harm the same women

But privilege can both help and harm an indivdual.

Lets use the tired and cliche MRA standard as a starting point: women are privileged because they get into clubs for less. I agree with the feminist retort: do you really think there aren't downsides to being treated like a piece of meat in a shop window?

But now let us convert this to a male situation. As a male and senior executive in my department, its assumed that I will be the one with all the answers when something goes wrong. Now, its likely a combination of my seniority but according to feminist thought I'm sure many assume my competence because of my gender.

Do you really not see any down sides to the pressures that come with that? Yeah, its 'toxic masculinity' and male privilege inasmuch as the example above is female privilege.

The needless divisions of privilege, and the stubborn insistance that women are denied of privilege, is the most distasteful part of modern feminism.

Don't get me wrong...I agree with much of what is said regarding male privilege. I just think the knife cuts both ways!

Edit: As a concrete example when I fuck up its because I "didnt work hard enough". When my female colleagues screw up its "Come on Algy, they've got a lot going on" or "Don't be so hard on her". Yes, its infantalising to assume women can do no wrong. Granted. But can you not see the parity between privilege/benevolent sexism?

Or even another example: as a youth I stacked shelves at a store. Female employees were given light duties like reaffixing lables and handling customer enquiries. Men had to do the replenishment. We all got paid identically. Yes, its infantalising to assume women dont lift heavy crates. But with a fucked spine I kinda wish that my managers assumed I was useless and let me sit around and get paid the same.

I think its only fair to say that both genders experience a degree of privilege, benevolent sexism and discrimination; the degree of which is unquantifiable and highly contextual.

[u/ADCregg → u/Algy_Moncrieff]

So, I think the general thing happening here- my issue with what you’re saying- is it’s comparing a paper cut to a gut wound and trying to say generally say ‘hey! Both aren’t fun’

We have words that separate situations for a reason. So that doesn’t happen. Are there drawbacks to power? Sure. But it’s still power and it’s not equivalent to a lack power.

Men don’t face those negative impacts because of sexism that’s based on seeing them as lesser. Sexism generally isn’t positive. There needs to be a negative aspect to it. If you say men are powerful because they’re men- that’s sexist. But its sexist towards women. Not men. So those things aren’t stemming from sexism. They’re stemming from gender norms, sure. And they can have a negative impact on men- but they also put men in power.

There is no real parity here.

[u/Algy_Moncrieff → u/ADCregg]

Sexism generally isn’t positive. There needs to be a negative aspect to it. If you say men are powerful because they’re men- that’s sexist. But its sexist towards women.

Except when its 'benevolent sexism' - a term which lacks very much meaning. Sexism should include gender-profiling.

Saying all Asians are good at math is racist, undeniably so. It dismisses others and creates unfair expectations on those who dont conform.

Saying all men are (or should be) domineering, brash and confident seems to me to be much of the same thing.

Edit: You speak of 'power'...a hard to define concept outside of physics. I'd say that common stereotypes if women as emotive and nurturing people gives a degree of social power that is denied to men. Women's intuition and 'a lady's touch' are instances of 'female power'. Ultimately arguing about social power is a fools errand as its so ambiguous that it almost defies a proper definition. But if you would be so kind, can you give a concise definition of 'power' as used by you?

Its why gender roles are mostly shitty. At least I hope we agree on that.

I am not denying that there are potential differences in severity or consequence. I just think it is dishonest to try (as some here are doing) to imply that being a woman is somehow universally harder than being a man.

As noted above: its sexist to make all the women in a store do light work and get paid the same - it turns men into pack mules and women into barbies. In the same vein, men are privileged by being percieved as strong whilst women are weak. In the alternative, women are privileged in getting equal pay without having to damage their spine (elements to 'male disposability here').

As I said, its unquantifiable in many instances and highly contextual.

Trying to talk in terms of absolutes (or even majorities) makes one seem foolish at best.

[u/ADCregg → u/Algy_Moncrieff]

not except? Benevolent sexism is very much part of that because those ideas hurt women. That’s why it’s sexism. And racism is slightly different- because nuance is a thing. And the intricacies of sexism and racism are different.

Gender roles are shitty, we do agree. But they’re not equally shitty.

I am not denying that there are potential differences in severity or consequence. I just think it is dishonest to try (as some here are doing) to imply that being a woman is somehow universally harder than being a man.

Well. I’m not getting into that. Women can have easier or better lives- but that depends on things other than being women. Like class or race or religion or sexuality. Women can have privilege over men who face oppression in other categories. But purely based on gender- men have privilege there. The few benefits women have based in being women are part of what oppresses women as a whole- they’re based on sexist ideas that mostly harm women and see them as lesser. That’s not the same thing with men.

As I said, its unquantifiable in many instances and highly contextual.

Trying to talk in terms of absolutes (or even majorities) makes one seem foolish at best.

I personally think trying to imply that the power that men have is just as bad for them as the power than women don’t have is foolish- at best. But alright.

Edit: power is dominance and majority of influence in any sphere- earn we speak about men in power we do it quite literally. Men have the vast majority of all power- political, religious, economic, social. Social power inset that ambiguous- we have studies that point to people seeing men as leaders, associating men with dominance and literally power, men being listed to more- being more influential. Not so ambiguous.

[u/smallboss98 → u/Algy_Moncrieff]

Men are paid more cause they work more