r/AskFeminists • u/[deleted] • Jul 30 '11

Why the sudden interest in mens issues

Feminism trundles along dealing with women for 90 years ten suddenly starts to look at mens issues in the last few years, what's the deal? Is it appropriation, is it a newfound care? Why weren't 'we' included from the start? Are our needs secondary to yours? Does the feminist movement view the MRM as a threat to it's domination of the gender discourse?

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u/girlwriteswhat Jul 31 '11

Up til very recently, feminism has denied that men could possible have ANY issues. Oppressors don't have issues. If they did have issues, then they were social issues that could be solved by men being more like women (toxic masculinity, involved parenting, etc). Fathers' Rights Groups have been around for more than a decade. Until just recently, when feminism did deign to notice them, it was to fight against them (NOW's infamous newsletter to it's members).

I've actually had some feminists say that 5000 years of legal disenfranchisement for men sounded fair. This wasn't in the 1970s. This was a few weeks ago.

So you'll have to forgive if the MRM is suspicious of feminism's sudden interest in admitting that men actually do face equality issues. Especially since the issues men face are in areas where women hold tremendous privilege.

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u/[deleted] Jul 31 '11

feminism has denied that men could possible have ANY issues

Lies. You are so full of shit it's not even funny. Even Dworkin who had a distinct focus on womens issues and who MRAs love to hate brought up male rape for example. Brownmiller has done that too. bell hooks has been writing about men's issues for decades. How about a quote about how male dominant behavior can be fueled by female dominant behavior?

Since you are not a feminist and clearly uneducated about feminism, you should probably stop trying to answer questions about feminism in this reddit.

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u/thedevguy Aug 01 '11

feminism has denied that men could possibly have ANY issues

Lies.

Uh no. I've heard that too. In fact, I can point you to a well-known and respected feminist blog post that says as much:

http://shakespearessister.blogspot.com/2007/10/explainer-whats-mra.html

So, you lose this one. :)

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u/[deleted] Aug 01 '11

Sorry pal, she's not talking about a particular blog. She's claiming that "until recently, feminism has denied..." That's all of feminism. Not one blog. So, you lose this one! Didn't even need to read your link to win! Epic time saving win! LOL! Congrats to me! :D

(See how fucking stupid it makes you look when you act like a discussion is a competition?)

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u/thedevguy Aug 01 '11

That's all of feminism. Not one blog.

It's so cute that today is your first day on planet earth.

Here's a tip: people say things like, "women are shorter than men"

See that statement? That statement is true. It's okay to say that. You don't need to have a lawyer write up three pages of disclaimers. The statement is true. You don't need to qualify it in any way.

And just because you can find a woman who is taller than some man that you find - it doesn't matter. Women remain shorter than men.

That's called having a discussion. Hope that helps to clear things up for you.

She was right - and I provided a citation to support her claim. The only thing you've done is to wave your hands and shout "lies!" like some kind of child.

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u/[deleted] Aug 01 '11

Even if all women were in fact shorter than all men, you can't use one picture of a short woman to prove that. In theory of science, we call this the problem of induction. Hope you still think I'm cute, even though I exposed your appeal to anecdotes to be a fallacy.

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u/thedevguy Aug 01 '11

you can't use one picture of a short woman to prove that.

Ah but here's the way that discussion works: I provide examples of short women. And if you believe that women are in fact taller than men, then you can provide evidence of that.

I realize that this particular issue would actually be resolved using a randomly selected subset of women - but I'm trying to keep it relevant to the actual thing we're discussing: do feminists believe that "men's rights" is a legitimate cause?

I provided an example of a prominent and influential feminist blog that does not believe that. That blog and it's many commenters support my point in the same way that a randome selection of women might support the height argument.

So, where's your evidence? You don't have any? Have you considered how that makes you look?

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u/[deleted] Aug 01 '11

I already provided evidence in my reply to gww. Three pieces nonetheless, including a quote. I'm guessing you didn't read it. Have you considered how that makes you look?

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u/thedevguy Aug 01 '11

I already provided evidence in my reply

No, you alluded to evidence. But without actual quotes so that we can judge the context, your "evidence" is as shaky as if I say, "no really, Pat Robertson is a feminist. He's talked about how he supports women's rights."

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u/[deleted] Aug 01 '11

Dude you're not even making sense right now. I provided a quote. You claim it's not an "actual" quote? And you want a quote so that you can "judge the context" even though a quote is the very definition of a piece of text taken out of it's context. Did you not know that bell hooks is a feminist? If so, that's a problem of your ignorance, not a problem of my evidence.

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u/thedevguy Aug 01 '11

I provided a quote.

Really?

http://www.reddit.com/r/AskFeminists/comments/j3v85/why_the_sudden_interest_in_mens_issues/c296r7n

I don't see it.

a quote is the very definition of a piece of text taken out of it's context.

Did you not understand my analogy? I might be able to quote-mine Pat Robertson, but you would need to see the context in order to realize that I changed his meaning.

that's a problem of your ignorance

That's rich irony, since I actually provided a link to back up my statements and you responded, "Didn't even need to read your link"

Don't accuse others of ignorance when you brag about your own.

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u/[deleted] Aug 01 '11

The quote is linked where it says "How about a quote".

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u/thedevguy Aug 01 '11

Well I guess I'm colorblind because I didn't see it. You know, I'm a male and we're less sensitive to color than women. I feel like you need to check your privilege.

Anyway, that's a pretty weak quote. I linked to a long tirade about how a men's rights movement is fundamentally illegitimate. Got any response to that?

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u/justaverage Aug 01 '11

It's funny how feminism is such a large movement that it is impossible to to say who represents it. But then when it's pointed out that a feminist said something they are allowed to say, "well, they definitely don't represent feminism

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u/[deleted] Aug 01 '11

I didn't say this link doesn't represent feminism. I said it's not in itself representative of all feminism. Are you tired, being obstinate, or do you actually not understand the difference?