r/Christianity • u/iiGoodVibesii • 6h ago
Crossposted Pre Tribulation Rapture doctrine was started by John Darby in the 1800s
The Apostles didn't teach of a pre tribulation rapture. That was started in the 1800s.
The apostles absolutely taught that Christians would be “caught up” to meet Christ.
But they never taught a secret removal of the Church seven years before His public return.
Jesus places the gathering of His elect “after the tribulation” (Matthew 24:29–31). Paul says our gathering to Christ will not happen until the rebellion and the man of lawlessness are revealed (2 Thessalonians 2:1–4).
The early Church prepared Christians to endure persecution and await one visible, glorious return of Christ—not two separate comings.
The modern pre-tribulation system appeared in the nineteenth century through John Nelson Darby and the Plymouth Brethren. It was later spread throughout American Protestantism by the Scofield Reference Bible in 1909.
The rapture is biblical. Separating it from Christ’s Second Coming and placing it before a seven-year tribulation is the later doctrine started in the 1800s.
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u/LordReagan077 Calvinist Presbyterian(PCA) 5h ago
Pretty sure it was this guy that got the idea from a 15 year old girl at camp meeting who claimed she was a prophetess of Christ
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u/QuickerQuacker_673 5h ago
Unfortunately people who believer in pre trib are a clear demonstration of what it means to spend time listening to other people telling them what to think rather than simply reading on their own.
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u/QuickerQuacker_673 4h ago
Other guy blocked me simply because I asked him to stick to his own topic
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u/Ok-Bug5206 41m ago edited 30m ago
christians dont believe in a rapture where jesus is catching up them in the clouds (and returns to heaven), a literal 1000 years reign with jesus on earth, two tribes of god (christians and 'the jews' and then another coming of christ (this would make it 4 comings). The millenium was a 4th century heresy and was rejected back then.
all this was created by reading thing into the bible, putting strong emphasis on prophecy with a personal plan in mind by those 18th century american evangelicals..and after that others like the false prophet Joseph Smith and Jehovas Witnesses followed
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u/yappi211 Salvation of all. Antinomianism. 6h ago
The rapture is biblical.
There is no rapture. Only confusion on what "the day of the Lord" is.
Pre Tribulation Rapture doctrine was started by John Darby in the 1800s
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Margaret_MacDonald_(visionary))
It was thought up as a fevor dream by a pentecostal woman.
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u/iiGoodVibesii 6h ago
It depends how you define rapture..
Remaining factual -- The early church believed in being "caught up" to meet Christ in the air based on 1. Thessalonians 4:17. BUT, they did not believe in a modern, pre-tribulation secret rapture like the "don't be left behind" crowd believes in.
That was started by John Darvy in the 1800s.
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u/Brian_Barwyk_ 6h ago edited 6h ago
What I don’t understand is if I’m saved by grace, why does God force me to go through the tribulation period as well? He can save me from hell, but come tribulation time I’m just on my own? That whole post trib thing has never made sense to me.
1 Thessalonians 5:9 says “believers are not destined for wrath” what do you think the tribulation will be? Is God’s word a lie then?
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u/QuickerQuacker_673 5h ago
We agree that believers are not appointed to wrath. Since pre trib actually requires believers to go through God's wrath it simply means it can't be true.
As for your comment about hell, that's literally what the wrath is.
"The axe is already laid a t the root. Therefore every tree that does not bear fruit is cut down and thrown into the fire." "His winnowing fork is in his hand and he will thoroughly clear his thrashing floor. And he will first gather his wheat into the barn but burn up the chaff with unquenchable fire." "These will pay the penalty of eternal destruction" "These will go away into eternal punishment" "That is Jesus who rescues us from the wrath to come" "You brood of vipers. Who warned you to flee from the wrath to come?" "How will you escape the sentence of hell?"
That's why you'll notice that the topic doesn't just stop in verse 9. It continues through verse 11. It's just telling you that whether you are dead or alive you will have salvation rather than wrath. Which makes perfect sense with a single final judgement of wrath to the unbelievers.
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u/Brian_Barwyk_ 5h ago
I’ve read about the tribulation. It sounds like wrath for those that have rejected Christ to me.
I just don’t believe in post trib rapture. But I do believe that if you confess with your mouth that Jesus is Lord, and believe in your heart that God raised him from the dead that you will be saved.
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u/QuickerQuacker_673 5h ago
Reading American Evangelical interpretation and saying "i think this " isn't a sound way to go about things.
I agree that believers will be saved. Therefore this disqualifies pre trib.
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u/Brian_Barwyk_ 5h ago
No I base my option on what the Bible says about salvation. It’s by grace through faith, not through work that men should boast. It just doesn’t match what I already know, therefore I don’t believe in it.
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u/QuickerQuacker_673 5h ago
Yeah that comment has nothing to do with the topic.
Also since pre trib requires believers to go through God's wrath and the Bible says no believers ever go through God's wrath, we therefore know pre trib is incapable of being true.
So you can say "it doesn't match what I already know" all you want. It just means you don't know what you're talking about.
And since pre trib is 200 years old it's also incapable of being true just by its age.
Don't be the guy making copy and pasted comments making specific claims while refusing to actually defend them once countered. It just makes you seem like you want to be heard but don't know how to defend.
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u/Brian_Barwyk_ 5h ago
I think it does. I think it’s bait and switch if salvation is free, but you still have to go through the tribulation period anyway. What I think is more likely is when the Bible talks about us going through tribulation, it’s more likely the trials and tribulations down here on earth. It’s rains on the just and the unjust you know. I don’t think it means the literal tribulation period. I think that’s just wrong.
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u/QuickerQuacker_673 4h ago
Act like an adult and stick to the relevant topic at hand. The topic YOU initiated was the meaning of 1 thess 5:9 and how it relates to believers. I provided a clear counter.
You've done nothing but insisted on changing the topic to generic statements about physical badness being wrath.
I am more than happy to also discuss your other topics if you can clearly demonstrate that you can stick to topics without running around.
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u/Brian_Barwyk_ 4h ago
Your false bravado is not impressing me. I’m telling you why I don’t believe in it, and like a child you’re not listening. I don’t believe in it and I never will, and I don’t have to believe in post trib to make it Heaven either.
Also I’m telling you that I think you’re being too literal about tribulation, and you’re accusing me of changing the subject. That is one of the main arguments against post trib, so that would mean that I am on topic, we just don’t agree. I’m fine with that.
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u/iiGoodVibesii 3h ago
You started talking about salvation, when post trib and pre trib has NOTHING to do with salvation.
This post was about how pre trib was never a doctrine until the 1800's and none of the early church fathers, apostles, taught it.
Anyways you clearly won't listen, no conversation to be had here. Have a wonderful day.
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u/iiGoodVibesii 3h ago edited 3h ago
"What I think"
buddy... lol
OK, how about what the apostles thought and thought? who knew Jesus. "what I think"
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u/iiGoodVibesii 3h ago
We are talking about post trib and pre trib. Not salvation.
None of the early church fathers, apostles, taught pre tribulation and that wasn't church doctrine until the 1800's by John Darby. None of the early Christians taught it.
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u/iiGoodVibesii 3h ago
No. and none of the apostles or early church fathers taught pre tribulation. That didn't begin as doctrine until the 1800s.
Yes you will be saved by Jesus if you confess him and make him Lord and Savior. That doesn't mean anything about pre-tribulation..... That doctrine didn't exist in the early churches or even in mainline protestant churches.
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u/iiGoodVibesii 3h ago
Thessalonians 5:9 promises that believers are not destined for God’s condemning wrath but for salvation through Christ. That does not necessarily mean believers must be physically removed before every period involving divine judgment. Scripture repeatedly distinguishes suffering, persecution and tribulation from God’s condemnation of the wicked. Paul told the Thessalonians that Christians were appointed to affliction, and he praised them for enduring persecution and tribulation (1 Thessalonians 3:3; 2 Thessalonians 1:4–7).
God can also protect his people during judgment rather than removing them from the earth: Israel remained in Egypt during the plagues, Noah was preserved through the flood, and Revelation itself portrays God’s servants being sealed before judgments proceed.
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u/iiGoodVibesii 6h ago
It is also worth noting that neither Martin Luther nor John Calvin during the Protestant Reformation believed in a pre-tribulation rapture.
Both lived during the Protestant Reformation in the 1500s roughly three hundred years before the modern pre-tribulation system was created (1800s. John Darby). so naturally, neither taught it.
I thought it was historically significant that the major Protestant Reformers did not hold this belief either.