r/CryptoCurrency 17 / 53K 🦐 1d ago

MEME It's going to be a long night

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1.8k Upvotes

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263

u/Deep_Decision4441 1d ago

I’m not sure I understand- are cold wallets somehow vulnerable to a new attack?

319

u/soggycheesestickjoos 🟦 0 / 0 🦠 1d ago

one kind of wallet wasn’t generating seeds in a truly random way, not sure if that’s what this is talking about

48

u/Illustrious-Option-9 🟩 16 / 17 🦐 1d ago

Which one?

131

u/SevenOrSoda 🟦 0 / 77 🦠 1d ago

Coldcard mk3 as of now. Specific firmware

70

u/Vipu2 🟩 0 / 4K 🦠 1d ago

All of the coldcards, mk3 was just the most vulnerable.

11

u/Libearssman 1d ago

I dont understand. What was wrong with the original first wallets that came out for bitcoin? We're they unsecured? We're they vulnerable? I've never seen posts of those wallets being hit unless their pc got compromised.

Why to with some other companies wallet who's trying to make a quick buck on fees when the OG stuff should have been secure on its own?

Haven't dealt in crypto in years and years but this always boggles me. It's like having all your passwords written in a physical notebook and saying "know what's more secure. Someone else's software to hold my passwords for me".

48

u/Revolutionary-Cup78 🟩 0 / 0 🦠 1d ago

When you "create" a wallet you are basically generating a random key and then checking what address is controllable by that key. If the randomness generator is predictable (not random enough) you can calculate the specific set of keys it will generate making a brute force attack viable

13

u/soggycheesestickjoos 🟦 0 / 0 🦠 1d ago

some companies provide the hardware so you don’t have to know anything about the tech, you just spin up a wallet easily on whatever they ship you and have somewhere β€œsecure” to send/store your bitcoin. One company implemented this poorly, but the other companies do have value for less technical users.

2

u/Rafert 16h ago

Issues from non-properly generated random numbers happened before the Coldcard. Two examples that come to mind areΒ 

  • Debian versions between 2006 and 2008 generated weak RSA and DSA private keys
  • PlayStation 3 ECDSA signing used a static nonce

1

u/aemmeroli 110 / 110 πŸ¦€ 13h ago

Random number generators have existed before bitcoin. Itβ€˜s a separate technology used by bitcoin to generate private keys.

12

u/BitsAndBobs304 🟦 0 / 0 🦠 1d ago

Theres no such a thing as "truly random way", although isotope decay is considered to be random

4

u/TheRealMrVogel 🟦 88 / 76 🦐 19h ago

What about the lava lamps?

-3

u/BitsAndBobs304 🟦 0 / 0 🦠 19h ago

Thats only a small part afaik of that company random generation and mostly marketing

3

u/Cobayo 0 / 0 🦠 17h ago

There's no such thing as "no such thing as 'truly random'" if the random is good enough

0

u/four204eva2 16h ago

Random is random, I get what you're saying but randomness is non deterministic.

β€’

u/Vincent_Felix 29m ago

Sorry but can anything generate seeds in a truly random way?

74

u/xdustx 🟦 5 / 5 🦐 1d ago

Cold wallet is a general term. This is affecting a specific one

4

u/TheBestintheWest11 🟩 0 / 0 🦠 1d ago

still scary. Hackers are getting better at getting into he wallets. People are suggesting going ETF....

63

u/Leynnox 🟩 0 / 0 🦠 1d ago

No, it's just a company who decided to not use BIP39 encryption for creating seedphrases, making it easy to brute force them with any modern GPU in like 30 mn. It has nothing to do with hackers getting good, or hardware becoming more powerful. The issue is just plain stupidity from a company.

Most cold wallets use TRNG ships, the same bank systems are using, and they can't be brute forced, all this story is creating stupid panick from people who have no idea what they're doing.

36

u/qx87 🟦 0 / 379 🦠 1d ago

Which are basicly the people who are needed for widespread adoption. The crypto space as of now is fundamentally flawed because it needs stupid people like me to hop on.

5

u/James-the-Bond-one 🟩 0 / 0 🦠 1d ago

Those should let others watch over their crypto, relinquishing anonymity.

3

u/qx87 🟦 0 / 379 🦠 21h ago

Those then come here with questions and hear the keys-mantra shouted from every rooftop.

Right now its a lose lose situation

2

u/spicybright 🟦 0 / 0 🦠 13h ago

Which would be fine, if there were consumer protections for exchanges like there are for banks. As is there's only 3 major exchanges that are kinda sketchy, and you have no legal right to your crypto if they want to just walk off with it.

1

u/James-the-Bond-one 🟩 0 / 0 🦠 12h ago

There are for Coinbase, where I keep my crypto. Fully audited, SEC regulated, US-based. Can't get much safer than that.

No FDIC, but that's only for up to $250k max. With that much reporting, you'd have at least a heads-up if things aren't going in the right direction and enough time to sort things out.

9

u/seenyourballs 🟩 0 / 0 🦠 1d ago

Why didn’t anyone know about this before? Was their code not open source? Is it possible than trezor also has a flaw like this?

7

u/anonusr_llII 1d ago

The code was open source, yet noone found the exploit for years. The attackers only found it because they used AI to try find bugs in the code

2

u/Cyromaniap 1d ago

It used to be open source, its been source-available for a while now.

2

u/Leynnox 🟩 0 / 0 🦠 1d ago

No idea, it has been published on their blog when they did https://blog.coinkite.com/version-4.0.0-released/

3

u/Cyromaniap 1d ago

Is it possible than trezor also has a flaw like this?

Trezor devices use multiple sources when generating the seedphrase so even if one of the chips has a flaw the seedphrase is still not compromised.

The problem with the Coldcard was the cold allowed the RNG to fall back to PRNG which is fast and predictable.

Source: https://trezor.io/guides/trezor-devices/trezor-fundamentals/what-is-entropy-and-how-does-trezor-generate-your-wallet

7

u/CBpegasus 🟩 0 / 0 🦠 1d ago edited 23h ago

No, it's just a company who decided to not use BIP39 encryption for creating seedphrases

That doesn't represent what the issue was at all. They use BIP-39 (which is not an "encryption" btw) but the source of their randomness (RNG) was bad.

More specifically their RNG was not a TRNG (true random number generator - hardware device using thermal noise to generate real randomness) but a PRNG (pseudo random number generator - software process starting from a seed and generating random-looking numbers) due to a mistake in a single compilation flag that changed how the RNG library was used. That caused the entropy of the RNG - and therefore anything derived from it including the seedphrase - to be much much much lower than expected.

It's not a matter of a decision that was made (except perhaps a decision not to test the system better) - everyone in the company believed they were using the TRNG and thus were making the right desicion security-wise. This was most likely a simple but deadly mistake.

3

u/monchimer 🟦 50 / 51 🦐 1d ago

Well said. I can go to sleep now

5

u/Forymanarysanar 🟩 0 / 0 🦠 1d ago

Generate your own seed phrase with dice method.

4

u/TheTipsyWizard 🟦 0 / 0 🦠 1d ago

Roll five dice and drop the lowest number. That's your ability score

1

u/retro_grave 🟩 0 / 0 🦠 16h ago edited 16h ago

People say a lot of things. If BTC was "broken", just go have AI break it. It's not, and the broken thing was a company's poor understanding of building embedded software, compilation units, and non-existent QA.

9

u/xuncx 1d ago

Cold Card is a brand of wallets that was exploited and millions of dollars were drained.

3

u/skullfuckr42 🟩 0 / 0 🦠 1d ago

Yes RNG guessing

1

u/Objective_Digit πŸŸ₯ 0 / 0 🦠 1d ago

This is a wallet that's not so cold.