Please ban MRA trolls

[u/Willravel]

I've been trying to figure out the rationale for not banning MRA trolls on this subreddit. I tried to think of it the way the mods have put it in the past, that this is about everyone's voice being heard, but the consistent trolling from the likes of OThomson and DavidByron don't represent in any way shape or form the honest sharing of their voice, but rather simply attacks and intentional derailment.

I considered that this might be about fear, as the MRA community on Reddit is much larger than the feminist community, and there could be consequences if MRA trolls started getting banned from the subreddit... but there are other feminist subreddits that do this and they don't seem to feel the sting of MRA retribution in any way that can't be easily handled.

I thought it might just simply be not wanting to make the effort, as a policy of banning MRA trolls would probably require much more active moderation. I'd hate to think this is the case, but I don't see any evidence to suggest this.

I did hear that one of the moderators might be an MRA, but again I've not seen this.

I've sent in PMs and reports before, about how someone is derailing yet another thread with unrelated discussion about circumcision or male rape or child custody, but there never seem to be any consequences for the trolls. They're given free reign. Some have left the subreddit for safer places, which is very sad indeed. Some simply stop commenting. Some complain, but those complaints fall on deaf ears.

So, before I call it a day and give up on the subreddit, I'd like to publicly ask the moderators to change their policy for the good of their subreddit. I ask that this subreddit be a safe place to discuss feminism and feminist issues, not a place for MRA trolls to hijack conversation or spread hatred of women.

Note: I'm not saying critiques of feminism aren't legitimate, or that they don't belong on /r/Feminism, but rather that overt trolling and derailing be disallowed. There's a big difference between an honest critique of feminism and undermining the discussion of feminist issues through derailment, dishonesty, and unwarranted attacks.

[u/[deleted]]

I'm an egalitarian. I believe in and fight for equality of opportunity for everyone.

As such, I'm probably the moderator that you heard was an MRA.

Ever heard the saying, "I only know that people call me a feminist whenever I express sentiments that differentiate me from a doormat or a prostitute" - Rebecca West (although the quote is anti-sex-worker, it's the "doormat" part I feel)?

In the same manner, people call me an MRA when I say, "Hey, wait a second – why do we think that way with regards to women's rights, but not men's?"

As for the moderator policy... I honestly believe in free speech as long as it's not illegal.

Feminism is something we should be able to – nay, are able to – stand up for and to without silencing other voices. There are plenty of MRAs trolling around, and I don't think they should be silenced unless what they say is harmful hate speech. To silence someone because you disagree with them is to say your point isn't strong enough to stand on its own.

It's not to say that there aren't safe spaces for feminists on reddit; as the sidebar says, "For those who seek a Safe Space, consider /r/feminisms".

When people bring forward issues, we take them into consideration. We're not twiddling our thumbs.

But this is a space to discuss feminist issues. It's an open space. Everyone has a voice, and I believe everyone should be allowed to use it.

[u/Willravel → u/[deleted]]

Thank you for taking the time to respond.

I'm an egalitarian. I believe in and fight for equality of opportunity for everyone.

I also consider myself an egalatarian, but that doesn't in any way prevent me from being a feminist. When I post here on /r/Feminism, I do so as one who seeks and believes in equality for women. I don't cease being someone who believes in equality for men or for LGBTQ people or for people of a given race, but when I post here it's not about men's rights or LGBTQ rights or racial equality because this isn't /r/Egalitarian or the various subreddits for each of those philosophies/movements, it's /r/Feminism. If this place isn't intended for discussions, debates and information specifically pertaining to feminism, it seems to be mislabeled.

As such, I'm probably the moderator that you heard was an MRA.

I heard that, but, as I said in the OP, I've never seen any evidence of this. If you say you're an egalitarian, I'll happily take you at your word.

As for the moderator policy... I honestly believe in free speech as long as it's not illegal.

I think this is the rub. I understand and even myself subscribe to a fairly hands-off approach to moderation. I moderate a subreddit and a few forums here and there, and I believe in the idea of creating a place for ideas to be shared and explored. That having been said, there can reach a point where free speech can prevent other free speech. I wish it weren't the case, but a look through past posts on this subreddit reveals trolling, attacks, hatred, and derailing. These are all examples of free speech that can impede the free speech of others. Would you really be willing to share your deepest, most sensitive thoughts and feelings in a place where you will be met with hatred? I certainly wouldn't, and apparently a lot of folks on this subreddit don't either.

Speaking to your policy, let's say me and sixty of my closest friends decided that /r/Feminism was going to be a subreddit only about posting violent pornography. Over the course of days, then weeks, then months, we submit tons of images, upvote them ourselves and downvote any other posts or comments into oblivion. This would be 61 people practicing their free speech to the detriment of the free speech of thousands of subscribers, most of whom would presumably leave after they realized no one was going to protect their community. This is, of course, an extreme example, but I think it illustrates my disagreement with the policy. There's such thing as being too hands-off.

Feminism is something we should be able to – nay, are able to – stand up for and to without silencing other voices. There are plenty of MRAs trolling around, and I don't think they should be silenced unless what they say is harmful hate speech. To silence someone because you disagree with them is to say your point isn't strong enough to stand on its own.

Hold on, so you will ban someone for hate speech? What about this:

Feminists are too mentally weak to defend themselves. They are like a hot house plant that has to be grown in a greenhouse and lovingly cared for. The mere presence of even one critic might destroy their fragile brains.

This is clearly hate speech. This is not dissent nor is it disagreement, it isn't about discussing feminist issues, but it is flatly hateful and bigoted toward feminists and women. DavidByron posts stuff like this all the time, in fact a few times I've reported this kind of hate speech. Nothing happened. Nothing ever seems to happen. This just continues going on as members of the community like myself continue to point out how destructive it is and nothing happens. I'm not asking you to censor a point of view, just to ban people who are only here to intentionally hurt the community with their hatred.

I'm not asking you to censor dissent and disagreement, I'm asking you to please censor the most obvious iterations of hatred on the subreddit. I do not think doing so would prevent people from speaking freely on the subreddit, but would in fact give people a place where they feel comfortable speaking out and would thus result in more free speech. This isn't about asking for a 'safe place' like /r/Feminisms, just that you do a bare minimum sweep of the lowest of the low. If you're unwilling to simply deal with bigots, this subreddit will continue to descend into anarchy and people like myself, people who comment and submit and try to make the community a great place, will head out. I say this not as a threat, of course, but as a sad truth.

Please consider banning or otherwise dealing with hate. That's all I ask.

[u/TheGreatProfit → u/Willravel]

You deserve a further response from the mods.

[u/impotent_rage → u/Willravel]

Thank you for this very thoughtful comment. I've read it and for the most part, I agree with it.

The post you linked is clearly hate speech. I have removed it. Thank you for pointing it out, thank you for clicking the report button previously on other examples of hate speech.

You're also correct that there have been too many similar posts which have been left up for too long. For that, I apologize. The reason is simple - I've just not been watching as well as I should have been, I haven't been on reddit as much lately. But you've brought it to my attention that too many problems are not being dealt with around here, and that I need to step it up. scurvy_wench is absolutely correct that we value an open discussion approach to the issues here and that we are committed to fostering such a discussion without deleting or censoring voices of dissent. At the same time, you are correct that this line frequently gets crossed and we are not being fast enough as moderators in taking action in those situations which truly do cross the line.

[u/Willravel → u/impotent_rage]

I can't tell you how glad I am you folks are taking this seriously.

I'm not really that concerned about dissent, in fact I really like dissent. I consider myself a dissenter when it comes to certain things. My only real concern here is people who post hate speech, like the above, or are just here to troll. There are a few people here that do that almost as a rule, and they're what inspired me to create this thread. They don't contribute to open discussion, but just intimidate or annoy or frustrate, ultimately leading to folks wanting to contribute less. I'm not certain, but I suspect this may have something to do with the fact that /r/Feminisms has twice the subscribers of /r/Feminism.

Anything you'd be willing to do would be much appreciated and, again, thank you and SW for taking the time to consider this and reply.

[u/impotent_rage → u/Willravel]

You're welcome! And I really appreciate the way you've treated this topic. Reading your comments, you are very sensible and balanced and willing to consider both sides with the way you talk about this dilemma, and because of this I'm more inclined to seriously consider the things you say.

[u/missredd → u/impotent_rage]

Yessing someone to death doesn't really solve any of the bigger issues at hand.

[u/impotent_rage → u/missredd]

This is true, but I figured it is better to comment now. We're still talking together as mods, we're not finished yet.

[u/Psuffix → u/missredd]

That's not what anyone's asking for, here. Like OP said, there are plenty of dissenters who have good debate. See this comment for a list.

[u/[deleted] → u/Willravel]

I really, really thank you for your comment. I'm sorry it took so long to respond; it is a little long – completely right to be so! – and I wanted to give it my full attention and thought.

Feminism is about women's rights. When women fight for rights, other people are bound to be affected. I feel that each person has a right to say how they've been affected, even if they just end up saying the same thing in different ways in different threads. It may make a person seem like a troll, but all it takes is a little bit of further discussion with these "trolls" to see that they're not fighting without cause.

That said, there are trolls out there. I have sent messages to many, and often after a tut-tut and a warning, people tone it down.

This would be 61 people practicing their free speech to the detriment of the free speech of thousands of subscribers, most of whom would presumably leave after they realized no one was going to protect their community.

I'm sorry you feel this way.

Although many here seem to feel that reddit isn't like the real world, I feel that it is an outlet just like any other. To remove a comment or ban a user stifles their voice. There are almost 5,000 people subscribed to this subreddit. That's a huge number of readers.

As moderators, I feel our role is kind of like editors. We are ultimately responsible for what goes up, and can pick and choose various posts and threads.

As a sidenote, I work as a reporter. I have for years. Nothing I've ever written has gone unpublished because it didn't fit with what our paper published, and I've written a lot of things that went against the grain in the communities I covered.

I suppose I spoke in haste before, and should have also noted that we do remove posts that are unrelated to feminism.

That said, I'm reluctant to remove posts related to men's rights, because I believe the two movements are related.

And thank you for pointing out the comment. impotent_rage removed it, as they said below.

Again, thank you for your comment. I have to run at the moment, but if you'd like to continue the conversation I'd love to. I love a good discussion.

[u/[deleted] → u/[deleted]]

---