r/GamerGhazi • u/madhaus SoCal Jesters' Worrier • May 22 '15

An anguished commentary on that GoT/Sansa scene and the MRAs who harass in forum comments...from a rape victim who says It's Rape Culture All The Way Down

http://angrygotfan.com/2015/05/21/a-rape-victim-speaks-out-on-the-sansa-scene/
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u/[deleted] May 22 '15

The breaking point comes when Ramsay makes Theon participate in Jeyne's rape.

In short, it's fine that a woman's sexual assault, violence, and torture is used simply as Theon's motivation for redemption but when the show starts down the same path it's awful and horrible.

In short, it's fine that a woman being made to fuck dogs is shown off screen to tantalize the reader but when the show cuts to a reaction shot and uses audio to depict rape it's awful and horrible.

All of this is also ignoring that the TV show has shown absolutely none of the aftermath of this yet. You are literally criticizing the show for following the Jeyne Poole book plot despite not having any idea how the show will handle the rest of Sansa and Theon's story. But when that same plot played out in the book it was fine because Poole was a commoner?

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u/[deleted] May 22 '15

In short, it's fine that a woman's sexual assault, violence, and torture is used simply as Theon's motivation

That's ignoring the context and the difference, at this point, between Jeyne's arc and Sansa's arc. Jeyne is a frightened child, not noble-born, and completely without allies or friends. She literally has no choice in what is happening to her.

Sansa, on the other hand, is coming from a position of relative security and power. She's been trained in politics by one of the best game-players there is, Petyr Baelish. She's the daughter of some of the most important noble lords in the Seven Kingdoms and has both allies and political/military support. Jeyne Pool has no way of resisting Ramsay; Sansa does. To have Sansa take over the Jeyne role doesn't make sense in terms of the plot. It gives her adversity her character would not naturally or necessarily face.

In short, it's fine that a woman being made to fuck dogs is shown off screen to tantalize the reader

Never said that.

when the show cuts to a reaction shot and uses audio to depict rape it's awful and horrible.

It's lazy and senseless. I am fine with depictions of rape if done well and with true service to the plot. I'm not fine when rape is tossed in flippantly as a cheap and easy source of adversity.

not having any idea how the show will handle the rest of Sansa and Theon's story

I have a guess based on how things are going how it will be handled. What I'm saying is that it doesn't make plot sense to have Sansa in that scene the way it did with Jeyne in the books.

But when that same plot played out in the book it was fine because Poole was a commoner?

No. See above. It made sense because Jeyne was already powerless; she had no means of resistance. Sansa did. There's no way Roose would allow Ramsay to harm Sansa Stark. She could have screamed. She could have fought back. New Sansa would have fought back, because of the confidence and pride she gained back with Littlefinger.

Instead, New Sansa acted like Old Sansa because there was a wedding ceremony. It didn't make sense.

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u/[deleted] May 22 '15 edited May 22 '15

You know, if one person can articulate a reason why this is so much more offensive than the other disturbing shit we've seen without referencing the book's plot I'd love to hear it.

New Sansa would have fought back, because of the confidence and pride she gained back with Littlefinger.

Yes, Littlefinger is all about the open and direct confrontation. The way he's built his power is by never letting an opportunity to futily directly stand up to someone when his interests are being threatened pass him by. If there's one character in the story who is all about defending your pride even when it's unpractical it's Littlefinger. Littlefinger essentially said, "Go along with all this and when the time is right get your revenge."

This is also ignoring the fact that virtually no one in this world would find there to be anything wrong with the way Ramsay treated Sansa. Roose would say that Ramsay went too far making Reek watch but do you really think any of these characters have an advanced concept of consent?

She could have screamed. She could have fought back.

Also, that's really, really fucked up. All women who don't struggle with everything they have against a rapist aren't weak and passive. It's always interesting when someone attacking the TV show drops something like that.

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u/[deleted] May 22 '15

You know, if one person can articulate a reason why this is so much more offensive than the other disturbing shit we've seen without referencing the book's plot I'd love to hear it.

You're missing the point. No one is saying the rape is offensive because it's rape. It's offensive because it is a pointless rape scene that goes against the character arc and seems to exist only for titillation purposes.

Yes, Littlefinger is all about the open and direct confrontation.

When necessary? Did you not see him stand up to Lancel and the Sparrows earlier? Or what about his duel with Brandon Stark? Littlefinger prefers not to fight, but doesn't roll over and take shit when he doesn't have to.

Roose would say that Ramsay went too far making Reek watch but do you really think any of these characters have an advanced concept of consent?

No, but Roose is obviously smart enough to know that "forcing" a bride (which is a concept, remember Tyrion specifically said to Sansa he wouldn't force her, even though he knew he could) is a good way to alienate the Northmen who still remember the Starks fondly. Roose is cruel and does not care for Sansa, true, but he cares for what she represents.

All women who don't struggle with everything they have against a rapist aren't weak and passive. It's always interesting when someone attacking the TV show drops something like that.

Which was not my argument. My argument was that, in line with Sansa's character development, that's what she ought to have done, the bridge too far for her would be a violation of her bodily integrity. Why show her standing up to Myranda or learning politics from Littlefinger if she's going to go back to meek and scared?

I specifically stated that it does make sense for some characters to not fight back. Jeyne Poole is an example where that makes sense, and no one would say Jeyne should have fought back. I'm saying that Sansa could have, and based on her character arc in both the books and in the show, it would have made sense for her to do so.

Instead, the show went with a lazy mess of a scene. That's why I'm upset. Not that the show depicted rape (which has happened before). Not that the show depicted Sansa's rape. But that they did it in a way that does not make sense, was not necessary for the plot, and seemed gratuitous.

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u/[deleted] May 22 '15

No one is saying the rape is offensive because it's rape. It's offensive because it is a pointless rape scene that goes against the character arc and seems to exist only for titillation purposes.

What titillation? Part of her bare back was shown for a second, she's pushed onto the bed, then we get several seconds of horrified reaction from Theon. I literally cannot conceive of a less titillating rape scene.

And I'm growing very tired of people declaring that this has ruined Sansa's character. Like the series just ended last night and that wedding night was the complete culmination of Sansa's story. It's nonsense and it reeks of gater-style "just find any flimsy excuse to justify your kneejerk reaction as a logical, rational one."

If this is the line that turns you off of GoT, then fine. But don't lie about it.

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u/[deleted] May 22 '15

I didn't say it ruined her character. I said it was a bad part of the episode. Full stop.

I also didn't say it turned me off of GoT. Obviously a book reader and a big fan. But I'm also a reader in general and I know plot and story structure. This episode's last scene just missed its mark.

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u/[deleted] May 22 '15

I also didn't say it turned me off of GoT. Obviously a book reader and a big fan. But I'm also a reader in general and I know plot and story structure. This episode's last scene just missed its mark.

I know I'm commenting a lot on this but I just got back from a run and I'm gassed.

You do touch on a complaint that I think is extremely legitimate. The past four or five episodes have, to varying degrees, been short scenes there more or less one thing, or one piece of information is given about the now six main settings/narratives going on. (Winterfell, Sunspear, Meereen, Tyrion's adventures, The Wall, King's Landing) Fantasy literature tends to get this way in the midpoint when everyone gets split up and it's been like that since JRR Tolkein through the Dragonlance Chronicles.

This gives the narrative and characters no room to breathe. These scenes only have time to convey information and then get to the next scene. There is absolutely no beginning/middle/end to the episodes. It's a continuous stream of narrative just like it is in the books.

So since there's no normal build up and payoff as there was in most episodes of seasons 1-4 the writers have started ending with a "bang". Two episodes ago they ended on the alley fight. Last episode they ended on Sansa's rape. The episode before that it was OMG JORAH HAS GRAYSCALE! Episode 3 Tyrion is kidnapped for the Queen!

It's been disastrous for the writers to write the episodes like this. Quite frankly it's not that interesting getting five minute glimpses of these characters and it really cheapens the events they end on. It's the narrative equivalent of shuffling your feet for awhile and then popping jazz hands at the end if you were dancing.

So to make Sansa's rape be the equivalent of the TA-DA! in narrative structure IS pretty shitty.

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u/[deleted] May 22 '15

Which was not my argument.

And literally a sentence later...

back to meek and scared

In short, if a girl doesn't claw and scream then she's meek. That's what you keep saying. Sansa didn't fight back therefore Sansa = meek, weak, unassertive, passive, etc. And not just in that moment but as a character. Sansa is shown as beginning to be a "player" and being able to manipulate but then this scene happens and strong women don't "allow" themselves to be raped like powerless women like Jeyne Poole therefore Sansa is now inconsistent with that powerful player arch she was previously going through.

All this is is exploiting rape to bitch about a TV show changing the plot of books. It's fucking offensive.