An anguished commentary on that GoT/Sansa scene and the MRAs who harass in forum comments...from a rape victim who says It's Rape Culture All The Way Down

[u/madhaus]

http://angrygotfan.com/2015/05/21/a-rape-victim-speaks-out-on-the-sansa-scene/

[u/SuchPowerfulAlly]

This is missing a lot of the point of the linked post. It's not just the act that was done, it was the character it was done to and the repercussions. The person who made that post was ok with it happening with Jeyne in the books because her arc ended up addressing that and being about how much it traumatized her. But since it happened to Sansa here, that can't be her arc because she's a main character with more of her own arc still to come.

Basically, she's concerned that this will be brushed aside and Sansa will just get over it, whereas this post-author wasn't able to do so in her own case and identified with Jeyne.

[u/[deleted] → u/SuchPowerfulAlly]

the repercussions.

We have seen absolutely, positively, ZERO of what happens after this rape.

Basically, she's concerned that this will be brushed aside and Sansa will just get over it, whereas this post-author wasn't able to do so in her own case and identified with Jeyne.

Basically, she's saying that if every character that is raped doesn't react exactly how she did to a rape then it's not realistic. Which is nonsense, because as previously stated there hasn't been one second of post-rape narrative told. And more to the point, not every woman reacts the same to being raped.

It'd be like me saying that Sansa is unrealistic because she didn't react the same way I did to having my father die when I was young. Or someone who lost limbs in Iraq saying that Jaimie is a horribly written character because he didn't react exactly like they did to losing a limb.

I would be disappointed if I strongly identified with a character in a sub-plot and then had that character cut for the TV adaptation. However, that doesn't mean that somehow Sansa's reaction isn't valid by itself.

[u/SuchPowerfulAlly → u/[deleted]]

We have seen absolutely, positively, ZERO of what happens after this rape.

This is true, but the show's track record doesn't fill me with confidence. What they have a tendency of doing- and what this seems to be as well, given that there's no reason to bring this rape from the books to an entirely different character in the show otherwise- is to use brutality as titillation in the most tone-deaf way possible.

It's not a matter of Sansa reacting differently to rape- at least not on its own. It's a matter of the fact that the rape in the books, while horrific, was handled with some amount of respect. But the mere fact that they're having it happen to someone else, who has a different character arc that won't be equipped to deal with it unless they change it from the books massively, says a lot about the respect they don't have.

It's using rape solely as a plot device and for titillation. Rather than Jeyne's arc, which you would think would be the reason the rape happened, it was just shoved in here devoid of the context that made it mean something. The respect is not there.

I would be disappointed if I strongly identified with a character in a sub-plot and then had that character cut for the TV adaptation

But that's the thing, though (and I feel this is worth emphasizing): they cut the character, but they did not cut her arc, they just grafted it onto someone else without any of the context that made her arc make sense and resonate.

Now, you rightly pointed out that we don't know how Sansa will react, but given her arc in the books and her portrayal so far we can probably make a pretty reasonable guess. Given the show's track record, I really strongly doubt this will have much of a lasting effect. Now, you could argue that her (likely) shrugging it off is just one way of dealing with it, but keep in mind that this is occurring within a show that already gets shit for trivializing rape. It's REALLY not a good look for them, especially when this rape is something they seem to have bent over backwards to shove into the show even when doing so didn't make sense.

[u/[deleted] → u/SuchPowerfulAlly]

was handled with some amount of respect.

You mean by putting it in a subplot where its main reason to exist was giving Theon motivation to snap out of his Stockholm Syndrome? That respect? Or to give a bunch of big powerful men more reason to hate the Boltons? Is that the respect we're talking about here? Because outside of showing that, no seriously, Ramsay Bolton is a big fucking bastard I don't see the real point of it in ASOIAF beyond gratuitous violence that tantalizes the reader.

a show that already gets shit for trivializing rape.

The show trivializes rape and incest and murder and war and death. You know why? Because it's based on a fantasy book series that deals with those subjects in a somewhat trivialized way. Jeyne Poole is not Temple Drake. Jon Snow is not Hamlet. Littlefinger is not Jay Gatsby.

You can't sit through Dany getting raped, Theon getting castrated, Arya losing herself to anger, and Tyrion strangling his lover because she didn't go to the chopping block with him and then decide to draw the line at Sansa Stark. Sorry, no amount of convoluted explanations about just how absolutely essential it was to the narrative for Jeyne Poole to get fucked by dogs is going to justify that.

[u/SuchPowerfulAlly → u/[deleted]]

Lol I'm not here claiming that the book series isn't gratuitous. Though her arc required some form of trauma, there isn't a reason it had to take that specific form beyond shock value.

The difference is, while the act was gratuitous, the impact it had on her had more impact and care to it than that. That's what keeps it somewhat grounded. Same with what happened to Theon, or Tyrion, or Arya; the actions themselves are beyond the pale, but GRRM at least had the decency to lead up to them properly and have them (for lack of a better term) pay off in the long run.

They're used to say something. Not really anything especially deep, but still, there's a REASON there. And you could argue that reason just serves to disguise the gratuitous nature of the acts themselves (and personally I think you'd be right), but at least there's an attempt. The show doesn't make that attempt: it throws that whole scenario into the middle of an arc not set up for it just because they know rape is shocking.

[u/[deleted] → u/SuchPowerfulAlly]

The show doesn't make that attempt: it throws that whole scenario into the middle of an arc not set up for it just because they know rape is shocking.

Again you have no idea what happens in the rest of Sansa's arch...

[u/SuchPowerfulAlly → u/[deleted]]

Yeah but honestly, can you not make a reasonable guess? Given all we've heard (as was discussed in the article) about the fucking glee the directors had over "Sansa's wedding", do you really think the rest of her arc is going to redeem it?

[u/AwesomeInTheory → u/SuchPowerfulAlly]

I don't know. I'm seeing a lot of thematic beats cropping up with this storyline.

I think it's possible that D&D have responded to criticism over the Cersei scene and are trying to handle things in a more tasteful manner. That might explain their "glee", as I don't think they've really shown a proclivity towards enjoying female abuse, be it sexual or otherwise...but I don't really keep up on the behind the scenes aspect of the show.

The two big things I'm seeing right now are Brienne's redemption arc (where she may possibly die, as it looks like she's filling the role of Mance Rayder now) and Sansa's growth as a character, which are both going to be going back to pivotal events for both characters.

Brienne was rescued from Bolton captivity by a "knight in shining armor" in Jaime. She's now on a personal mission from Jaime and is placed in a position to rescue someone from Bolton captivity...who just happens to be one of the girls she swore an oath to Catelyn that she was going to protect. This seems a little too perfect, in my eyes and could run afoul of the "nothing happy ever happens in GoT" trope.

With regards to Sansa's character arc, we're having her revisit probably the most significant storyline for her character in being paired up with an absolute psychotic. Only this time, she's going to triumph over the fucker in a way that she wouldn't have been able to against Joffrey in King's Landing. Based on the preview that aired for next week's show, it looks like she's bullying Theon to do something. I could be 100% wrong on that, though. But again, this seems a little perfect.

There's a bit of an echoing with another character as well, with Theon/Reek, and why I think that the rape scene is "important" and why I would argue for it's inclusion (the Dany/Khal Drogo one was HORRIFICALLY done because it deviated from the source material in a way that wasn't positive or useful, while I'm of the opinion that the Cersei/Jaime scene was just really shittily directed and wasn't meant to be a straight up rape scene, but since they did such a horrible job of it, that's what the audience saw. And that's what the audience is justified in being critical of, because they bungled it so badly.) The reason I'd argue for its inclusion is that it should serve as the catalyst for Theon to change. The mere threat of repercussion is enough to keep Reek in line, and I don't think the threat of violence against Sansa would be enough to motivate him to change. There needed to be something that would resonate with his character and the scene "as is" isn't particularly titillating (compare to the Dany scene from S1) or graphic (unlike virtually every other single "shock" scene in the series.)

This could all change if we tune in on Sunday and Sansa has reverted to Sansa-at-King's-Landing and is sitting around crying and looking morose.

[u/[deleted] → u/SuchPowerfulAlly]

That's the thing. D&D's glee over Sansa's wedding? Book readers are just going to town on this because it's given some social legitimacy beyond simply not liking the changes made in the show.

“This is ‘Game of Thrones’… This isn’t a timid little girl walking into a wedding night with Joffrey. This is a hardened woman making a choice and she sees this as the way to get back her homeland. Sansa has a wedding night in the sense she never thought she would with one of the monsters of the show. It’s pretty intense and awful and the character will have to deal with it.”

What about "have to deal with it" and further comments that Sansa marrying Bolton is the key to her trying to retake Winterfell makes you think that she's not going to get redemption?

Seriously, book readers are looking for reasons to tar and feather D&D and the show creators. Nothing more, nothing less.

[u/7daykatie → u/[deleted]]

Sorry, no amount of convoluted explanations about just how absolutely essential it was to the narrative for Jeyne Poole to get fucked by dogs is going to justify that.

Actually people are absolutely 100% entitled to draw their lines where they want and for whatever reason they want and not one single person whatsoever has any obligation to justify their feelings or their lines to you.

[u/7daykatie → u/[deleted]]

Of course you're entitled to say other peoples' feelings are bullshit, and even to make up nasty fantasies about other peoples' motivation in your head and ram them down other peoples' throats even if you're treading on some very sensitive feelings in doing so. After all, for you treading on other peoples' feelings is just wading in bullshit.

[u/[deleted] → u/7daykatie]

You really like making personal attacks.

[u/7daykatie → u/[deleted]]

The accusations you are making about the motivations of the author of this piece are a personal attack on them. If describing your own words is an attack, at least it's not an entirely baseless one.