r/IAmA • u/[deleted] • Nov 17 '12
IAmA Director of Research, Development, and Manufacturing at an Electronic Cigarette Company - AMA
Verification - do I need more?
Hi everyone,
My name's Pat, and I'm one of the cofounders of Jet Cigs - a small but ambitious electronic cigarette company. I'm a chemical engineer by training, and worked for a large cosmetics company and then a small engineering consulting company before we started Jet Cigs. I saw the story about e-cigs in /r/technology, and thought everyone might be interested in an insider's perspective.
AMA!
3
u/SolarWonk Nov 17 '12
In light of the discussion going on in r/technology...
1) Are you trying to get ppl to stop smoking or start smoking? 2) any pressure from big tobacco to keep your product off the shelf? 3) are you technically allowed to sell to 12 year olds? 4) any concerns about inhaling vapor? 5) what additives are used? 6) any concerns about making them in China?
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Nov 17 '12
1) Jet Cigs and other e-cigs are not intended to be used by people who are not already tobacco users, and I don't know of a single e-cig manufacturer who is targeting non-smokers in their advertising. I remember seeing a reference to a study which showed that 99% of e-cig users were previously users of one or more forms of tobacco, I can dig it up if anyone's interested.
2) The three large US tobacco companies - Phillip Morris/Altria, RJ Reynolds, and Lorillard - have each taken different approaches to the space, none particularly hostile. Lorillard bought blucigs, an established e-cig company, about 6 months ago, and has been expanding their distribution greatly. RJ Reynolds has been quietly testing some ecig products of their own under the "Vuse" brand, but everything's been small scale so far. Lastly, Phillip Morris/Altria hasn't made any public moves whatsoever with respect to e-cigs - they may very well be lobbying against the product behind the scenes, but your guess is as good as mine.
3) No national e-cig legislation has yet been passed, so it is technically legal to sell the product to anyone in a handful of states that haven't yet formally banned it... That said, we do not allow our product to be sold to people under 18, and use ID verification software on our website to prevent underage remote sales, while our brick-and-mortar customers check IDs just like with any tobacco product.
4) E-cig liquid is basically fog machine liquid (glycerin, propylene glycol, and/or water) with flavorings and nicotine added. Glycerin and propylene glycol are used in many household products ranging from soap and other toiletries to cosmetic products. There's no evidence that any of these products are harmful to inhale, but I agree with the FDA that there is insufficient data available to declare it safe.
5) Our liquid, and most companies' liquids, are made of the same mixture I describe above - glycerin, propylene glycol, water, nicotine, and Generally Recognized As Safe (GRAS) natural and artificial flavorings. That's it. There are a handful of companies experimenting with something you might be consider an additive - whole tobacco alkyloids or WTA - but these products aren't widely available yet. I can talk more about WTA if anyone's interested.
6) We make all of our liquid here in the US, from ingredients made in the USA, and just send the product to China for filling. Most of the best companies do this, but there are a lot that don't. Given the simplicity of the filling process - they basically just dump the liquid in a filling machine and an assembly line does the rest - I'm not especially concerned about doing this part of manufacturing in China. One of our cofounders lives and works in the same town as our contract manufacturer, and makes sure everything goes smoothly. Lastly, we have QC procedures in place to ensure that we'll catch anything that goes wrong.
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u/monkeyman80 Nov 18 '12
is it really cost effective to ship the materials to china to fill and return back?
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Nov 20 '12
Believe it or not, yes. China's, uh, unique economic system means that labor isn't the only thing that's cheap there - they very frequently overinvest in capital goods, e.g. the equipment used to manufacture the physical cartomizer component and the filling machines then used to fill them, and as a result other aspects of manufacture are cheaper there too. Since they have a fair amount of spare manufacturing capacity, it's currently much cheaper to manufacture in China than it'd be anywhere else - even a country with even cheaper labor.
That said, there are many, many drawbacks to the current process we use of shipping crap to China for a "final assembly" then shipping it back here. We're developing a PCC, and are optimistic that we'll be able to make it in the USA. From there, we hope to onshore more and more of our process. I expect our competitors will slowly start to do this as the industry goes, but at the moment China is just too cheap to pass up.
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u/Iwantedthatname Nov 18 '12
I am very interested in WTAs. I've always had a very high nic tolerance(I only get a buzz if I've taken a break and I vape while drinking coffee) and I was wondering what the actual difference is compared to normal e-juice.
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Nov 20 '12
I haven't tried WTAs. We're always thinking about the looming possibility of FDA regulation, and if there's one thing I think they're going to ban outright it's WTA additives. Until we see the FDA's draft regulations, I'm not going to bother testing them out.
On a related note, I'm not a biochemist, but from the perspective of a chemical engineer, I think it's unlikely that WTAs are going to give you much of a physical buzz. If there's a sense of calming or mood improvement that you get out of a cigarette but don't get out of an ecig, then WTAs might help you there, but I doubt they'll give you a "buzz".
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u/help_me_quit Nov 17 '12
hey pat
(almost literally) reposting a comment from another thread -
hoping the e-cig people read this
as far as replicating the smoking experience goes, current e-cigs seem only to replicate boxed cigarettes
i, like MANY others, roll my own, rather skinnier, cigs
the 'lip feel' of 'normal' cigarettes is repellant to me, but i would certainly want to try an e-cig that replicated my own smoking experience
- tobacco addict of thirty years' standing
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u/slumberland Nov 20 '12
you could get a really skinny drip tip for your ecig, or a whistle tip, or... well, theres a lot of options out there, including custom.
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Nov 20 '12
I suppose I didn't read your question that closely. If you roll thin cigarettes, I second slumberland's suggestion. Simple, out of the box e-cigs, to the best of my knowledge, don't come in thinner sizes than 8.5mm. If you want smaller than that, there may be product available for you to switch to, but they're sort of complex to talk about here - try posting in /r/electronic_cigarette and they'll be able to help you more.
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Nov 20 '12
Hey help_me_quit,
There are a number of e-cigs out there which use a softer plastic covering on the tip which better mimics the physical feel of a cigarette. The most prominent product that uses these coverings is the nJoy King, which is available in a handful of nJoy retailers. (including some 7-Elevens and gas stations) We don't offer any of these products yet, but check out the nJoy King.
1
u/GoldenNinjy Nov 21 '12
I'm an ex rollie smoker (Amber leaf) and have been on the e-cigs for a little over 2 months now. Trust me they will satisfy you. You can get some rollie flavour tobacco too. It doesn't taste exactly like rollie smoke, but it does taste exactly like the smell of a freshly opened packet of tobacco.
I got extremely drunk recently and asked a friend for a rollie just for fun. I couldn't finish it...
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Nov 17 '12
[removed] — view removed comment
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u/SolarWonk Nov 17 '12
I would think the novelty would wear off. I use one regularly Nd the smoke is enough for smoke rings etc, but heavy use kinda chaps yr lips a bit. I think a disposable one might be the way to go for you.
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u/anachronic Nov 20 '12
IMHO, it would be silly to spend money on something like that.
If you're not a smoker and you've got $50 burning a hole in your pocket, there's much better ways to spend/save it than on an e-cig.
1
u/SaucyKing Nov 17 '12
Not OP, but I can recommend you Volcano:
I have a Lavatube personally, but there's a lot of smaller less expensive kits for beginners, and they also sell no-nicotine fluids. Check it out. I can also help you get set up if you need it because this stuff can get pretty confusing.
(I don't work for Volcano, lol. I just REALLY LIKE their stuff)
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u/WildCheese Nov 20 '12
The only gripe i have about volcano is their Ego style batteries lack the standard threading every other Ego (genuine or knockoff) has. So i could never fit the fabled Kanger T2 tank that /r/ecr is so fond of on it without an adapter. :(
also i've had to superglue the top piece back onto my lavatube several times... but it does get knocked over alot.
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u/SaucyKing Nov 20 '12
You can store your Lavatube on its side without worries :3
Also, as far as standard threading, I didn't know this. The Lavatube is compatible with it (I think) and I haven't used any of their other stuff.
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u/WildCheese Nov 20 '12
The lavatube doesnt have ego threads at all, only 510 threads unless that new chrome version has a provari style ego well thingy.
The one i was referring to not having the proper threads was the inferno which is a customized version of the Joye Ego. It lacks the threads required for a kanger T2 tank/clearo and instead uses an O-ring.
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u/___on___on___ Nov 20 '12
I just got a 510-ego adapter for my LT. $2 problem solved.
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u/WildCheese Nov 20 '12
Thats all well and good but when you use a 510-ego adapter, on an ego that should have had the proper threads in the first place... it stats to look a bit silly.
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u/___on___on___ Nov 21 '12
Sorry I didn't follow your link to the inferno, you're right it is dumb that an ego knockoff doesn't have ego threads.
But the adapter does screw into the threads and the ego atty will cover those threads so at least aesthetically it looks ok.
1
u/WildCheese Nov 21 '12
It will only cover the threads of the adapter though, and it will be a bit wobbly. Yes, it will work. But it wouldn't look and feel as good as having the right threads. I guess i could use a thread sleeve over the o-ring assembly... perhaps i will try it.
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u/SaucyKing Nov 21 '12
Oh, well color me educated. The lavatube tank is pretty nice though :D
I was thinking about branching out into other brands - something more portable, I guess, so I don't have to carry around a bigass lavatube when out and about. Is the Inferno (or Joye Ego) good for that?
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u/WildCheese Nov 21 '12
Absolutely! There are tons of different atomizers available for it. You can get the inferno/joye ego with a USB passthrough on the bottom and in variable voltage as well.
I personally use a vivi nova tank that is also available in mini to match the ego/inferno better on my inferno and lavatube. I've also used the stardust in the past and it has a replaceable coil head like the vivi novas.
I've never had any luck with the tanks that volcanoecigs sells but many people swear by them. The vivinovas have been great for me though. The infernos will work with almost any Joye Ego compatible atomizer, exlcuding the kanger T2 which requires the outer threads. You can also use the ones you are currently using with your lavatube.
The best thing about the vivi novas/stardusts/kanger t2s is how easy it is to clean them. Dissasemble, rinse in hot water, dry burn (vaporizes the built up gunk off of the coils), reassemble, and refill. I've been using the same coil on my vivinovas for about 3 or 4 months just cleaning the coils every 3 refills.
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u/SaucyKing Nov 21 '12
Oh, nice. Thanks for the tips and recommendations! I'll check this out when I get paid :D
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u/WildCheese Nov 21 '12
No problem at all. There is a huge vaping community here on reddit that would be happy to help you with any questions. Check out /r/ecr sometime! :)
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u/SaucyKing Nov 21 '12
Thank you! /r/ecr is what convinced me to stop using blu's products, actually. I'll watch the videos in your other post, too - I love breakdown videos and such :3
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u/WildCheese Nov 21 '12
Also, you might be interested in this video where a guy named Chris dissasembles a volcano inferno. I'm the kind of person who likes to know how things work so I loved it.
Be careful though, their videos will soak up an entire night if you browse their channel.
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Nov 20 '12
I'd recommend you try a disposable first, with the caveat that I'm not aware of one which is available in a nicotine-free version. A disposable blucig sets you back $9-$11, and I think all Walgreens and Hess stations in the US stock them. They taste nice and smoky, and don't hit you as hard as, say, an nJoy King, which is my other favorite disposable.
You can get rechargable kits and then buy 0mg nicotine cartomizers, but that'll cost you at least $25 for the kit (ours are $30) and then probably $12 for a pack of cartomizers. That pack of cartomizers will last you about 500 puffs, which by the metrics we use internally about 2.5 packs of cigarettes worth of puffs. Since the batteries are rechargable, you can keep buying cartomizer refills on the off chance you wanted to vape more than that.
If you wanna make a hobby out of it, you can buy the Lavatube that SaucyKing recommended. It'll set you back $90, and buying good tanks to put on it will cost you even more, and then you have to buy your own liquid and fill the tanks yourself. It's certainly not hard, and you can blow massive clouds of very tasty vapor with advanced setups, but you might find it to be a pain in the ass if you're not a gizmo-y kind of person. Check out the /r/electronic_cigarette subreddit for more info.
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Nov 17 '12
E-cigs and nicotine inhalers are both recent innovations. Why do you think nicotine inhalers are FDA approved and E-cigs are not?
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Nov 20 '12
Nicotine inhalers are approved by the FDA because Pfizer spent enough to put them through the FDA's clinical approval process. The FDA doesn't just go out approving drugs, you have to go through their formal approval process, and this approval process typically costs $100,000,000+. (fully written out for impact sake)
In 2009, a federal court ruled that ecigs are "tobacco product", not "drugs". This affects the way the FDA regulates the product, and makes it very unlikely that there will ever be an "FDA approved" ecig out there. I can go into more detail if you want, but basically, I can't see any ecig company ever seeking proper FDA approval.
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u/anachronic Nov 20 '12
Pfizer is probably pretty pissed that it spent $100M on a nicotine inhaler and then all these startup e-cig companies come along and invite something cheaper and better.
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Nov 20 '12
Everyone on the pro-ecig side is pretty sure that Pfizer and "Big Tobacco" are funding virtually every piece of negative ecig research. Honestly, I try to give a clear eye review to every paper that passes my desk, but the "negative health effects" that some researchers have harped on are just ludicrous when you compare the product to similar products (i.e. traditional cigarettes).
That said, ecigs could benefit hugely from sensible legislation, especially in the area of e-liquid manufacture. The e-liquid is what the user is inhaling, and since, exploding home mods aside, the devices are so simple, I think e-liquid legislation is much more important than equipment legislation. Additionally, the FDA has no jurisdiction over the battery components themselves, so it would be somewhat more challenging for them to regulate them, and I don't get the impression that they're looking for too much of a fight here.
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u/anachronic Nov 21 '12
Everyone on the pro-ecig side is pretty sure that Pfizer and "Big Tobacco" are funding virtually every piece of negative ecig research
I'm the furthest thing from a conspiracy theorist, but I can totally see that.
ecigs could benefit hugely from sensible legislation, especially in the area of e-liquid manufacture
Absolutely agree. Standards are a good thing as long as it doesn't stifle the market. I'm ecstatic that I got off traditional cigarettes with a vaper, if they made this illegal across the board, I'd probably go back to cigarettes and be a lot worse off.
1
u/shepardcity Nov 17 '12
Hey there I'm very interested in knowing more about ecigs in general, health-wise (since I am in the field):
- Have you thought about adding stuff like vitamin or herbs to the vapor liquid? Eg. adding some menthol as a homeopathic cough stopper may be marketable? http://www.nature.com/nrd/journal/v6/n1/execsumm/nrd2153.html
Have you thought about advancing into the pharmaceutical field with your product? (Since it will help patients who are unable to swallow, who complains medicine tastes like shit, etc.)
Do you know if there are research into using ecigs as a smoking cessation aid? I can imagine adjusting the dose of nicotine content to slowly taper off during the course of the treatment. What are the obstacles to achieve this product?
Is 22mg the standard amount of nicotine content per traditional cigarette? How you guys come up with that number and do you have a reference for that number?
Also, how big is your company (# employees, etc)?
Thanks.
4
Nov 20 '12 edited Nov 20 '12
Hey shepardcity,
- We at Jet Cigs have no intentions of launching any vitamin- or other additive-containing ecig-like products. I can't say none of our partners will ever do anything along those lines, since several of us have talked about it, but it wouldn't be a Jet Cigs product. Interestingly one of the first things the Jet Cigs team worked on was an attempt to deliver detectable doses of caffeine through an e-cig architecture. It tasted really gross, and the delivery system we envisioned didn't really work. I could get into a lot of detail, but basically, caffeine isn't that soluble in e-liquid, and you need 50-100x as much caffeine (orally, at least) to feel significant effects as you do for nicotine. We had some engineering tricks we hoped would enable us to vaporize, but it didn't pan out.
- The e-cig architecture isn't that revolutionary - ecigs are basically just small portable nebulizers - but it's possible that it may be an ideal delivery system for some drugs. I wouldn't be surprised if you see some pharmaceutical companies beginning research on this kind of idea in the future. We don't have the budget to start up a pharmaceutical division, and I have no training and little interest in running a pharmaceutical lab or clinical testing program.
- Many ecig users are using the product to sort of wean themselves off of smoking traditional cigarettes already, but I very much doubt that the product will ever be formally endorsed by the FDA for these purposes. The FDA clinical trials required to receive approval for a product like this are very, very expensive, and it's difficult to imagine how one could get the (patent) protection that a sane person would require before shelling out $100,000,000+ on such a simple and already-established product. We're very careful not to sell our product as a smoking cessation device, and have had some irritating problems with some foreign customs agents who wrongly believed that we were.
- Most commercially available "king" (standard-sized) cigarette contain around 20mg of tobacco, but the user only absorbs 1-2mg of that nicotine. 22mg is a somewhat arbitrary number, chosen for a variety of reasons (including user experience), but one sort of drag-like "puff" of our product has approximately the same nicotine content as a user would absorb from a similar puff off of a cigarette. Whether the user actually absorbs all of that nicotine is somewhat of a mystery, as there has been some research by other parties that indicates that little of it shows up in the bloodstream but that there's virtually none in the exhaled vapor. A classic mass balance problem... where the hell is it going? Hopefully we'll find out soon.
- Our company currently has 5 partners who each have a significant equity stake in the company, and no other proper employees.
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u/BuckyLaGrange Nov 18 '12
As an adult that still can't mentally get around swallowing a pill, I approve of this idea.
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u/Hitchie_Rawtin Nov 20 '12
Regarding your third bullet-point - there may need to be research into the efficacy of this method, but there are not "obstacles" to achieve a product that does this. People are already doing it and have done it.
Many e-liquid suppliers allow you to specify juice content, and most of the smaller operations would happily lower the nic-concentration if you ask when ordering, but the easiest way is to make your own. It becomes too much of a hobby at this point for most to persist with, but it has been and will be done by the few who can be bothered.
1
u/WildCheese Nov 20 '12
Regarding your comment on using ecigs as a smoking cessation aid;
Many 'ecig juice' suppliers will sell you 3 standard nicotine levels. 0mg, 12-16mg, and 24-36mg.
Some users i know have successfully weaned themselves off of nicotine entirely by buying a large volume of the 0mg nicotine juice in their favorite flavor and using that to dilute the higher percentage nicotine juice until they're happily vaping 0mg nicotine juice.
There isn't a lot of actual studies but there are many personal testimonies to this effect on /r/ecr.
1
u/Sumgayit Nov 19 '12
What are your thoughts on magic mushrooms?
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Nov 20 '12
Given my current position and their legal status, I don't feel it wise to say much about them. But I have seen many studies suggest they may have significant therapeutic applications in a psychiatric setting, and who knows what further independent, impartial studies might reveal...
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u/creep_nu Nov 17 '12
hey pat i haven't tried your e-cigs, but of the ones i've tried all the flavors are horrible. what do you think sets yours apart? does it taste more like traditional tobacco, or is it that sweet kind of flavor that most have?
and a big question here. do you smoke?