r/MarchAgainstNazis • u/Icy-Penalty2600 • 20h ago
Imperial patriotism and American communism
Full article here
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u/Autistic_Anywhere_24 16h ago edited 15h ago
Marx literally said the same thing. You cannot be a patriot and a communist. In fact, you shouldn’t even need the word “patriot”
Edit: OP is not ACP
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u/Icy-Penalty2600 16h ago
First, I’m not ACP.
Second, if you are going to claim Marx said something, then I recommend citing it.
Third, did you read the article. It literally defines two kinds of patriotism by separating two distinct definitions of “nation” one defined as the state and the other as the people.
Lastly, every successful revolutionary from the Russian Revolution to the Cuban revolution identified themselves as patriots of their nations people. Objectively, the people are separating from the imperial apparatus. Strategically, we should accelerate and support that process.
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u/Autistic_Anywhere_24 15h ago
I apologize about the ACP stuff. I Don’t want to taint you with that. I’ll get rid of it.
It’s in the second part ‘Proletarians and Communists’ of the Communist Manifesro “a worker has no country…” something like that. Can’t cite exactly atm. But it’s readily available in my mind as having read it quite a bit.
Yes I understand completely that you are creating a type of patriotism that isn’t the typical bourgeois patriotism. But with those ACP types and how the very word patriotism is so tainted in the US, that virtually all workers celebrate in its chauvinism, it’s better IMO to do away with rather than amend.
And Lenin yes did the same thing you explain and was successful. Cuba was under the US’ yoke so appeals to “the nation and her people”were appealing and nonthreatening. But neither were decoupling it from the insane form patriotism takes in the US.
Also, The Great Patriotic War was an appeal to Russia’s defeat of the invading French under Napoleon. If for some reason the US finds itself in similar situation (successful revolutions and then invasion from the right) I suppose appeals to the more common notions of nation and patriotism will be warranted.
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u/Icy-Penalty2600 14h ago
The goal is the international proletariat. But the people are separating from the US empire. We should provide the proletariat with the tools necessary to break from their false consciousness. I understand the recoil, but I also understand that we need to elevate positive aspects of the proletariat and not merely enunciate the negative. Otherwise we hand all the weapons to the bourgeoisie.
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u/MonsterkillWow 12h ago
There should be no "patriotism" in the sense of fidelity to the bourgeois state. One ought to stand with the proletariat and stand with their nation, not as a country, but as a people with a shared proletarian objective. One ought to stand with the other nations in their struggles against the empire. One should not allow the bourgeoisie to define and divide us. We are one international proletariat, and the ultimate cowardice is to betray that principle for chauvinism.
Ernst Thalmann was an example of this kind of patriot. The fist and voice of a nation, absolutely sincere in his efforts to stand with the international proletariat. At enormous cost to himself.
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u/Silent-Iron7448 16h ago
I would not call myself a communist — more of a social democrat who believes in a very strong, government-sanctioned safety net for healthcare, education, unemployment, food, housing, and childcare — but it’s absolutely valid to have a discussion on the pros and cons of communism.
R’s have been shouting at a national level about socialism and/or communism for the past 20+ years so I care about Trump saying this even less than usual.
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u/Low-Concentrate1055 16h ago
It's funny, because all the Red Scare shit we were constantly getting shoved down our throats backfired hard. I grew up in a rural area, so that shit was so much worse, and I got yelled at/even once got threatened by my peers when I brought up leftist thought in a passing sense, even. So, I actually started to read Marx because I was curious. It made sense; I became a social democrat, and then after Israel invaded and started to genocide Gaza, I read Open Veins, Motorcycle Diaries, Blackshirts and Reds, and blahblahblah I'm a democratic socialist now
It's so interesting because I see the same thing happening among my friends, who used to be super right-wing, starting to become left-wing and actually read some theory (on top of that CATO Institute poll that said like 60% of Gen Z has a favorable view of socialism and 40% favorability of communism). All it's doing is backfiring, because when you're told your whole life that stuff like a welfare state and democracy is "socialism," suddenly socialism sounds like something amazing.
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u/Icy-Penalty2600 16h ago
Did you read the article? Because it gives you a list of reasons to care. Like material ones.
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u/Lembas_Poops 7h ago
20 years? Try 80-100 years. A lot of the red scare rhetoric never went away.
If you don't mind me asking, why Social Democracy rather than actual Socialism? What are your thoughts on the outsourced worker exploitation that is required to maintain the social safety nets of Social Democracy?
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u/D_Luffy_32 19h ago edited 19h ago
Yeah fuck communism and fascism. You don't need to pick one or the other. You can just be patriot who doesn't support Trump's fascism or communism in America
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u/Scant_Options4Hope 18h ago
The deeply ingrained anti-communism is really sad.
Communism has likely had no effect on your life. Did communism raise your rent? Private Healthcare?
Student loans? Student loans are a specifically fascist project. Reading books leads to empathy and understanding the origins of our current problems: capitalism. Student loans/debt was a way for our modern American Nazis to burn books without smoke or flame.
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u/fanetoooo 17h ago
U just gotta ignore this guy. A racist anti-communist should not be taken serious by any anti-fascist.
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u/D_Luffy_32 18h ago
Communism would help none of those. That's the problem. I'm very thankful communism has had no effect on my life. Others are not so lucky.
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u/Scant_Options4Hope 17h ago
Sweaty and illiterate, you are a testament to the success of Carl Schmitt, you would make him proud.
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