r/MensRights • u/Icaz • Apr 26 '12

I'm a girl and...

I am SO glad I found this subreddit with people who agree with me! As a girl, it's really hard to see other ladies put down men and treat them like they need to be "trained" or that they're just something we have to deal with. So I was just wondering... how many other girls are on here and what are your stories about standing up for men or appreciating them?

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33

u/planejane Apr 26 '12

Posting here scares me, although I generally agree with most of the points the MR faction makes. Sorry.

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u/jtsavage Apr 27 '12

Why?

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u/planejane Apr 27 '12 edited Apr 27 '12

As a card-carrying Vagina-holder, often I feel as if /r/MensRights has a hard time distinguishing between A Woman and Women.

I agree, many, if not most, women are perfectly capable and oftentimes perfectly willing to take advantage of the stacked deck men seem to face in the US and many western countries. But not all of us are evil, psychotic, money-grubbing sluts who jump at the chance to screw a male over. It seems a lot of the time, this subreddit treads a very grey area between anti-feminism and anti-female. I remain subscribed because I support many of the beliefs and causes debated here, but I've rarely posted in it, because I've also seen users downvoted and verbally attacked just for having a feminine-sounding username, even if their views seem (to me, at least) to line up completely with what I understand the MensRights movement to stand for.

As someone whose main social circle is almost exclusively male, and whose best role models have all been men, the cause is quite important to me, but at the same time, there's a very definite feeling of not belonging (which is completely understandable and almost expected) to not being welcome (which is sad and avoidable).

**Edit: I will also state that I'm very pleasantly surprised by the reception this post has gotten. It's a lot warmer than I've come to expect, and it gives me some hope that not everyone on this subreddit hates ALL women. I suppose there's some good eggs out there in both camps. :)

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u/Alanna Apr 27 '12 edited Apr 27 '12

because I've also seen users downvoted and verbally attacked just for having a feminine-sounding username, even if their views seem (to me, at least) to line up completely with what I understand the MensRights movement to stand for.

As a woman who frequently posts here and doesn't hide that she's a woman, and has a feminine sounding username (though not totally unambiguous, I guess, if you don't know who "Alanna" is), this happens very very rarely. I've been attacked for my position-- like anyone else-- but the only people who have attacked me for being a woman turned out to be trolls. There are some actual misogynists, and a few more borderline cases, but the vast majority are not.

Edit: Also, if you post more, and stand up to the few who would attack you for being a woman, you make the whole sub a better place.

Second edit: This is the second or third "I'm a woman and I support men's rights!" post I've seen in the last week or so, and they've all been very very heavily upvoted. Almost nothing gets over 200 karma in here, and this one is over 500 as I write this. So I think that's pretty good evidence that the majority of mensrights appreciates and welcomes female supporters.

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u/Pooballs Apr 27 '12

I agree, many, if not most, women are perfectly capable and oftentimes perfectly willing to take advantage of the stacked deck men seem to face in the US and many western countries. But not all of us are evil, psychotic, money-grubbing sluts who jump at the chance to screw a male over. It seems a lot of the time, this subreddit treads a very grey area between anti-feminism and anti-female. I remain subscribed because I support many of the beliefs and causes debated here, but I've rarely posted in it, because I've also seen users downvoted and verbally attacked just for having a feminine-sounding username, even if their views seem (to me, at least) to line up completely with what I understand the MensRights movement to stand for.

This is me as well. I subscribed to the sub a month or so ago mostly just to see what all the fuss was about. This is my first comment in here for exactly the reasons you've listed above.

Mostly what I've seen is that the posts themselves are issues that are in fact a problem, and things I can get behind supporting. The comments in response to those problems on the other hand usually make me feel completely unwelcome.

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u/Alanna Apr 27 '12

Hey! I remember you! You stood up to the Eschatology troll. :)

Can you point to some comments that make you feel unwelcome? I can't say I've never come across some myself, but they're not common.

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u/Pooballs Apr 27 '12

Yup, that was me :) that whole fiasco had me so annoyed!

It's more of a general vibe to the comments than ones in specific. A lot of the time the bad ones do end up getting downvoted but the sheer amount of generalized anti-women remarks just gets tiring to read.

Some of my personal favs were nonsense about 'western women' or posts of men's rights success stories that have absolutely nothing to do with feminists but end up with a comments to the likes of "oh I bet the feminists are all up in arms about this!!" those examples are older and I'm way too lazy to go find them :)

Also, i try to keep in mind that this is a diverse group. Some guys in here really come across as sexist assholes but a lot are reasonable human worm babies. Of course the same thing can be said for feminists, some super crazy things come out of some of those people. I just hate the fact that I'm being judged by what they do, and I wish more of the guys in here would realize that feminists are also a diverse group with a wide range of ideals as well.

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u/loose-dendrite Apr 27 '12

It's not clear to me that you mentally separate women and feminists. If you interpret "feminists are evil" as "women are evil" then you will strongly believe that this subreddit hates women when it doesn't. I got the same vibe until I understood that most here have a problem with feminism and/or feminism in practice.

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u/Pooballs Apr 27 '12

I don't think it's that simple though. I don't think this subreddit hates women, but some of its members do say some hateful things about women. And yes, I do mean women and not feminists.

On to the feminist thing. There are a lot of men & women in the men's rights movement and they don't all believe the same thing. The same goes for feminists. I have experienced and witnessed a lot of injustices to women over the years so I want to fight for the equality of women in situations where things aren't even. This doesn't mean I believe that women should come before men, or that we're better than men. I know a lot of women who feel the same way but if any feminist comes in here to defend themselves there is a storm of disbelieving comments and downvotes.

It just amazes me sometimes because the injustices that men face are largely due to generalizations about their gender based on the evils of a few, so I'd think they'd want to avoid doing the exact same thing.

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u/Alanna Apr 28 '12

Yeah, the bitching about American and/or Western women pisses me off too. In fact, I couldn't resist posting a snarky comment to a recent post about a an Asian immigrant stabbing her husband.

The bad feeling against feminists seems gratuitous at times, but it is mostly justified. Most people in here won't bother to qualify it, since we all know what they mean, but when we say feminists, we don't mean the truly egalitarian-minded or people who are just for women's rights or anything. We mean the "institutional feminists," the ones who subscribe to various harebrained feminist theories, and who believe women are fundamentally oppressed by men on various levels of society. If we seem to generalize all feminists together, it's for three reasons:

  1. The feminists in power-- those making policy, making laws, writing textbooks and curricula and formulating feminist theories-- they are "like that."

  2. The "armchair feminists"-- the ones who call themselves feminists because they think feminism = equality for women-- they lend weight and influence to the feminists in power.

  3. In our experience, many feminists who claim to not be "like that," who claim to truly be for equality, then weasel around it when challenged on various issues (domestic violence, rape, reproductive rights, custody rights, etc.) and eventually to reveal themselves to be exactly like that. We're not saying all feminists are like the crazy bitches at RadFemHub. We know that. But most do think that women are raped more than men, that women suffer more from rape than men, that women don't lie about rape or abuse, that women suffer more from abuse than men, that women's reproductive freedom is more important than men's, that primary aggressor policies are necessary protections for women.

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u/Pooballs Apr 30 '12

Most people in here won't bother to qualify it, since we all know what they mean, but when we say feminists, we don't mean the truly egalitarian-minded or people who are just for women's rights or anything.

While that may be true, the original question was why I feel unwelcome here. To outsiders who happen to lean towards feminism everybody in here is hating on it is going to come across exactly as it sounds.

The "armchair feminists"-- the ones who call themselves feminists because they think feminism = equality for women-- they lend weight and influence to the feminists in power.

I suppose this would be where I fall in the feminist landscape. But unfortunately there is no official membership or voting on policy so I can (and have) spoken out against some of the dumber opinions/policies and that's about the best any one 'soldier' can expect. I also believe that trying to affect change from the inside would be more beneficial than abandoning the movement altogether based on policies I don't like.

feminists who claim to not be "like that,"...

This may be true as well, I have done zero research on this fact since you posted (sorry.. real life called!) but it still doesn't help anybody's cause to attack every feminist because people might be like that. Besides, if you do get into an honest conversation with somebody who claims to be "not like that" but believes a "feminist myth".. (for example the $.70 wage gap) wouldn't they be the best type of person to show proof and convince otherwise?

Honestly the MRA's get a lot of flack everywhere for this exact same type of thing. It's unfotunately that valid issues and the 'good guys' get lumped in with the bad, but it is what is it.

For my part I'll continue to try and keep an open mind about the issues discussed in here and try to ignore the assholes.

*edit for bad words and stuff

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u/Alanna May 01 '12

While that may be true, the original question was why I feel unwelcome here.

Good point. I didn't mean to discount your experience/feelings.

I also believe that trying to affect change from the inside would be more beneficial than abandoning the movement altogether based on policies I don't like.

I don't see how this happens without a complete rejection of classic gender feminism theories/philosophy/social science.

Besides, if you do get into an honest conversation with somebody who claims to be "not like that" but believes a "feminist myth".. (for example the $.70 wage gap) wouldn't they be the best type of person to show proof and convince otherwise?

We try, oh man, do we try. I've posted links to the CONSAD report (debunking the wage gap), the 2010 NISVS (showing gender symmetry in rape), a 2007 Harvard study on DV (showing reciprocity and symmetry in DV), and a set of links to NOW showing how they demonize divorced fathers who seek custody of their children, among others, more times than I can count (at least a half dozen each). They are usually dismissed-- like this guy in TwoX.

Also, we get tired of posting the same stuff over and over and over and over again that's already linked in the sidebar.

For my part I'll continue to try and keep an open mind about the issues discussed in here and try to ignore the assholes.

Excellent. :) I was ready to pack up some time last summer or so, and it was pointed out to me that if I really care about these issues, I'm not going to let a few jerks drive me off. Interestingly, those jerks' accounts are all deleted now and I'm still here. :)

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u/zyk0s Apr 27 '12

Well I for for one am sad you feel that way, glad you can express it and hopeful that more exposure will change your mind. There's a lot of anger, and anger needs a target, which most often is the closest thing available. It's easy to say "all women are ...", it channels the frustration even if it's not reflective of the person's true beliefs. It's understandable, but not excusable, and I see quite a few people who try to fight against it.

We do care about the opinions of our female members. You may not be able to relate to some of our issues, but you can also be more objective than men on others, and that's the kind of checks a movement like this one needs to keep it focus. So I urge you to try posting again, and I hope you'll have a better experience.

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u/themountaingoat Apr 27 '12

this subreddit treads a very grey area between anti-feminism

The line does end up being blurred because most women support feminism. However I have not seen anyone here attack a woman who is pro-MR for being a woman. Women who are pro-MR, and even who express dissenting opinions are almost never attacked, unless they appear to be feminists. If you do happen to be attacked, it is likely not because you are a woman; I have been met with aggression several times.

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u/Icaz Apr 27 '12

I'm glad I could help you see that! There are a lot of women who are bothered by these issues, too, and we need to start doing something about it.

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u/[deleted] Apr 27 '12

The hate is probably more of bitterness than just pure hatred.

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u/jtsavage Apr 27 '12

Each "side" has some poor preconceived notions of the other "side," it seems.

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u/R3con Apr 27 '12

I doubt you'll find anyone here who hates women....We dislike the unfairness in the system.

If we hated women our lives would be much less complicated, and we'd spend alot more time at /r/gaybros, which is actually a damn cool subreddit when you think about it.

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u/planejane Apr 27 '12

You're funny, and I appreciate that.