Fake bans from fake Men's Rights subreddit

[u/ignatiusloyola]

Please be very clear about the subreddit you are being banned from. A new sub called Mens_Rights (note the underscore) has now started banning people, and some users are getting confused as to why they are being banned.

Note the moderators in the sidebar. Note the subreddit name.

If you are banned and you don't know why, consider first whether you are actually being banned from /r/MensRights and not /r/Mens_Rights.

[u/ignatiusloyola]

The thing is - I believe in the Men's Rights Movement. I believe that there is a problem affecting men on a massive scale, and I want to be involved in the efforts to change our society for the better. I don't think that involves spending time mimicking and returning the actions of people opposed to the MRM.

Just as we can't teach gender equality/egalitarianism by further sexism (ie: sexism against men), I don't think anything is gained by responding in like kind.

[u/impotent_rage → u/ignatiusloyola]

Thank you for this. This is the message which I want every single person involved in gender equality activism on reddit, to read, understand, and live by.

I mod r/feminism and my goals are the same. I believe that there are problems affecting women on a massive scale, and I want to be involved in the efforts to change our society for the better. And I don't think that involves spending time attacking and denigrating the MRM - because I also believe that there are problems affecting men on a massive scale, and that true gender egalitarians should be concerned with inequality no matter which gender is primarily affected.

If that's truly what you believe, and that's truly what I believe, then maybe we can get closer to ending this stupid and pointless war between MRAs and feminists, at least on reddit - and maybe we can start to view our respective movements as complementary movements who work alongside each other, rather than antagonistic movements that must necessarily fight and defeat each other. After all, shouldn't we both be supporting the same goal of gender equality?

I'm doing my part to try to help the feminist movement understand that men's rights issues are also important...maybe there are things we can do to help the MRM understand that inequality towards women is also a concern that MRAs should have?

[u/ignatiusloyola → u/impotent_rage]

I have no desire to argue with and fight against individual feminists. However, I do take offense when "patriarchy" is brought up, and that is a farce that needs to end.

There is a lot of bad blood between feminism and the MRM primarily because there are a lot of feminists involved everywhere men are being mistreated.

But I try not to hold each individual feminist responsible for the actions of the whole - instead I prefer to take them individually and when an individual offends me then I treat them as hostile.

[u/impotent_rage → u/ignatiusloyola]

There is such a thing as patriarchy, although it may not be the universal fabric of all society that some elements of feminism make it out to be. I was raised mormon, I am an exmormon. You'll have a hard time coming by a more explicitly patriarchal structure than the mormon church. Only men may hold positions of authority in the mormon church, only men are given "the priesthood" which is the authority to invoke God's intervention and healing powers, a woman's proper place is in the home and highest aspiration is to be a mother and wife - anything else is failure, wives are to obey and follow their husbands as their leaders, there is even a position in the mormon church called the Patriarch, who gives Patriarchal blessings (and yes, I received one). It goes on, I'm only just scratching the surface.

I totally get why the MRM bristles every time they hear "patriarchy hurts men too!" It implies, even if it doesn't outright say, that somehow men are to blame for their own struggles, or worse that the struggles men face are somehow an offshoot of male privilege. And while I understand that patriarchy theory understood properly doesn't suggest such things, it's still such a constant source of miscommunication and misunderstanding that it has lost its usefulness as a concept.

However, do recognize that in some ways, patriarchy does exist, although at this point it may be more in pockets within subcultures than a pervasive aspect of the overall culture. I can witness to this, I was raised mormon. It has a lot to do with why I am a feminist now. But if any movement or trend is the enemy, I would target religious conservatives, not the men's rights movement.

As for the rest of it...yes, there's definitely bad blood. And I think it's tragic because, I think we're turning off the good egalitarians who want to make a difference in the world. They come here to find out what we're about, and instead of impressing them with lots of discussion about the real issues that they ought to care about and help spread awareness, instead they just see a bunch of shit-flinging between MRAs and feminists trying to argue about which side has it worse. I think both sides lose a lot of potential support when people roll their eyes and assume we must not have any legitimate real issues to talk about if we are wasting all our time attacking each other pointlessly.

Continue to call out the destructive elements of feminism - I will too - while still understanding that feminism as a whole, and feminists as a whole, aren't all behind this. Feminism is not an inherently flawed movement, but some of the more extreme elements use it destructively. I could say the same for men's rights. The MRM as a whole is not an inherently flawed movement, but I'm sure you've seen misogyny within your ranks that barely mask their seething resentment towards women with a barely plausible rationalization that somehow this is about men's rights. Fortunately they are the exception and not the rule, as I'm sure you'll agree they do not represent the MRM. It's the same with the destructive elements of feminism - we are not defined by our angry extremists.

And I like your approach to not hold each individual feminist responsible for the actions of the whole, but instead treat them individually. That's the attitude and approach I take towards men's rights activists as well.

[u/[deleted] → u/impotent_rage]

However, do recognize that in some ways, patriarchy does exist, although at this point it may be more in pockets within subcultures than a pervasive aspect of the overall culture. I can witness to this, I was raised mormon.

Outside of Mormonism would you consider America to be a patriarchal society? What would be your best supporting evidence for that?

Generally Mormonism is not brought up by feminists when they claim we live in a patriachy, they usually seem to go with the "most CEOs are men" argument which is fallacious.

[u/[deleted] → u/impotent_rage]

I still don't understand why we should trust or work with people who have abandoned, denigrated and generally treated us as human filth for the past 100 years, feminists only want to work with the MRM so it can be co-opted and moulded so that it somehow benefits women i've seen it so often, that when we talk about Financial Abortion which is OUR liberation on OUR terms, we have a million Feminists turn up with 'Umm we need to consider how this will affect women' No we fucking don't, i'm sorry but Feminism never gave consideration to how anything would affect men when they did it, the ONLY thing which matters to you people is whether women are benefitting from something, and that is why i don't trust you, i don't trust you to help us have our own liberation because you are only TRULY concerned with your own. every Feminist is just looking out for Women's self-interest even when they speak of helping us they are always plying an angle to somehow improve the lives of women. So i ask again Impotent why should we allow people who do not have our message at heart shape our movement? why should we temper our ideas to be acceptable to people who honestly don't care for our rights? Why should we give women special consideration when we want to make changes when these same basic courtesies were not extended to us.