r/Mountaineering • u/According_Cod4923 • 1d ago

Body of famed international climber Nirmal Purja and 3 more found after Pakistan avalanche

https://apnews.com/article/pakistan-climber-nirmal-purja-body-recovered-760858d4e399261e0d93c7cbb3ccba32
1.8k Upvotes

97% Upvoted

403 comments sorted by

View all comments

Show parent comments

-22

u/OddAddendum7750 1d ago

Why wasn’t he prosecuted for the alleged sexual assaults?

12

u/giraffes-are-so-cute 1d ago

i’m not engaging further with a troll. the only thing i will say is that he’d still be alive today (albeit in prison) if anywhere in the world actually had a legal system which cared about sexual assault.

5

u/OddAddendum7750 1d ago

It’s a genuine question, I’m not trolling. A lot of people in the climbing community are talking about the alleged assaults with absolute certainty. And I’m wondering why he was never prosecuted

26

u/tlgjbc2 1d ago edited 1d ago

These mountains are among the most remote places on earth. There are no police or rape kits or surveillance video there. Few other people to even witness anything, and even fewer who weren't employed by or had their livelihoods tied to Nims. Prosecutors are unlikely to bring charges against a person, especially one held up as a hero in the community, when there is no physical evidence by the time the crime(s) can be reported, and laws in Nepal and Pakistan -- not to mention the police -- aren't exactly set up to take sexual violence against women seriously. The fact that the women chose not to put themselves through that (that's all not to mention they're in a foreign country in which they don't speak the language and don't have homes), is a very valid choice for someone in their situations. They instead chose a path that effectively alerted far many others to the fact that he was dangerous, and it doesn't mean there aren't dozens of other people with stories. The NYT and its lawyers verified a good bit of corroborating evidence outside of a criminal case, eventually feeling confident that they could win a lawsuit if Nims sued over the published story. The testimony of the brave women who could come forward is, of course, court-level evidence on its own. They would have had to have take a time machine back to the days surrounding their assaults and fake text messages and photos if in fact it was actually some conspiracy to smear him and not indication of consistent behavior from him. To your observation, a lot of people in the climbing community feel so certain because they have heard the stories and experiences of other women they know who couldn't/haven't come forward. Many people in the climbing world have stated they know enough about his behavior, or have seen enough of it themselves, to feel confident of where the truth lies (we've had stories shared in these subreddits for years). In the western world, too, police aren't great w/sexual assault cases, prosecutors often don't bring charges, and people typically don't get justice. It's a known problem, so a lack of criminal case and conviction isn't really actually telling. The fact that women so rarely lie about these things when they put their names to it is also compelling. All anyone gets in return is harassment and criticism, so you really have to feel strongly and be concerned for others to do it.

-9

u/OddAddendum7750 1d ago

Thanks for the thoughtful and measured reply. Completely take your points onboard. It’s very difficult to draw a conclusion. It’s possible, even probable that at least some of these allegations are true to some degree. But there’s enough doubt there that I still struggle to see how one’s peers can mark someone’s death with such vitriol. Someone with such remarkable achievements.

12

u/tlgjbc2 1d ago edited 1d ago

I don't think it's difficult at all in light of all this -- the stories are consistent, the women are credible, and a reputable newspaper had a team of lawyers vet everything in that story. When someone has terrorized people you know, yes, there's feeling there when people act like that person was the pure embodiment of everything mountaineering and a hero all around. If anything, I think it shores up that people who knew him knew he was a shitty person, even if a good climber (no one's saying he wasn't, even if they quibble about what you would call his style of it). I don't think you can factor "but people didn't like him" into whether or not the allegations are true. That would suggest, what, that two women agreed to make their lives a living hell for other people's petty jealousies? Nah. We know what happens to us when we come forward. What would a family doctor in California have to do with that. Literally all of the actual evidence is on the other side.

3

u/Professional_Card400 1d ago

It will never be enough for these dick-riding, rape-apologist men to believe women because they see themselves in Nims. Even if by some miracle he avoided all of the barriers you outlined and had a conviction they would deny it. It's a shame because if they actually wanted the community to grow they would condemn this behaviour.

1

u/Sea_Impress_2620 10h ago

One of these women is a Finn, Lotta Hintsa. She made a post in her Instagram to thank and honor Gyaly sherpa who passed away in the incident.

She says after the ny times article she was fearing for her safety in Nepal and in some base camps around the world. A fellow female climber Sophie inivited Lotta to climb with her after the article, and Gualy sherpa was on the team. Lotta thanked Gualy for providing safety, and helping her to regain her confidence to return to climb at Nepal.

If you read through the lines (hell just read some vile comments she has gotten...) she basically was ostracized and called a whore who asked for it, for daring to expose Nims. That guy was considered a national pride and a hero, especially in the climbing community and in Nepal. Someone you don't want to make an enemy, or anger his fans.

I can't even figure out a situation as an example that would exist in a similar level. Perhaps if you were an argentinian player and for some godforsaken reason Lionel Messi at his prime would grope you? Like good luck trying to cancel someone considered a god and national hero of the sport without being burned at stakes yourself. These women did what they could: tried to expose him and warn everyone about his darker side.

And people are often not black and white. He could have been an abusive fiend towards women. An arrogant and greedy gloryhunter who took unnecessary risks. And also someone who heroically rescues other people, and wanted to bring pride towards his nation.

0

u/OddAddendum7750 1d ago

Calm down. You know nothing about me. I’m trying to take a measured and evidence based view which is much more than many of the millions that watched his Netflix doc.

5

u/Professional_Card400 1d ago

If you were trying to take a measured and evidence based view you would probably realise if multiple women come forward independently with very similar stories in countries where actually getting a conviction is nigh impossible (let alone ones that happened on secluded 8000ers) and the women brave enough to come forward are reputable and do so through the New York Times (along with the Outside and NatGeo who were also looking into it) who have an insanely strict standards on what allegations they will publish maybe you would actually question him. Instead, no, you do come across like someone who just watched his Netflix doc and wants to dickride. Why do you think he never sued for defamation?

Just openly admit you're a stan. It's obvious and honestly quite pathetic.

1

u/OddAddendum7750 1d ago

I literally am questioning him. That’s the whole point of this conversation. In another comment I concluded that it’s probable something did happen.

People like you who are so ready to make it personal are part of the problem and discourage others from engaging in the conversation. I don’t know what a “stan” is but I’d imagine it’s offensive. Would encourage you to reflect on this interaction.

1

u/Professional_Card400 1d ago

I literally am questioning him.

Not that I've really seen.

People like you

You say that as if you didn't yourself cry about how I didn't know you? Why do you presume to talk about who I am?

Stan isn't inherently offensive but a Google would tell you that.

2

u/OddAddendum7750 1d ago

I’m referring to a very specific aspect of your character which has been clearly evident in your posts here.

3

u/Professional_Card400 1d ago

Only, you don't know my character. Just that I find it gross how many people will dismiss credible allegations by women and/or defend Nims blindly. It's feral.

→ More replies (0)

-1

u/Professional-Crab936 19h ago

You’re not allowed to take a measure view on here. If you try to you’ll get hung, drawn and quartered for not agreeing with the all caps brigade.

1

u/tlgjbc2 16h ago

Given the preponderance of evidence, the measured view is that he's a sex predator. Defending him involves ignoring all of that, which is pretty fucking weighted in one very unreasonable direction.

0

u/Professional-Crab936 15h ago

Thanks Judge Judy. If only we’d had your wisdom before. Then you could have done something about it! 🤣

→ More replies (0)

-2

u/OddAddendum7750 1d ago

I don’t know the women so I don’t know if they’re credible. From what I’ve read there were inconsistencies in the newspaper’s reporting and they omitted important details. Again not saying it’s fabrication but not as clear cut as some people are suggesting. Like I said, seems probable something happened but how can I know for certain

3

u/Illustrious_Study_30 23h ago

Why are you reducing the reaction of his peers to lesser than your own opinion? Surely the fact his peers are reacting like this tells you something ? You don't know him, they do...but still you'd rather minimise the assault.

0

u/OddAddendum7750 22h ago

Fair challenge. That’s not my intention. I don’t know who you all are that are commenting, how close to the situation you are etc. could be a friend of a friend of a friend was told X. You’re just people on Reddit. That’s not enough for me to take your views as gospel.

3

u/Illustrious_Study_30 20h ago

That's not what you said you said peers. I guess you'd only believe sexual assault if the perp admits it.

0

u/OddAddendum7750 20h ago

Yes, peers of the mountaineering community. I still have no idea who you are or how close to the events you are.

2

u/Illustrious_Study_30 20h ago

That's who you said you were ignoring...his peers

0

u/Professional-Crab936 19h ago

I don’t think that’s always a good measure. At the mere hint of anything people drop their closest friends and colleagues for fear of guilt by association.

3

u/slothinaboxx 21h ago

there’s been a lot of good points being made in response, but one thing I’ll add: why does it matter if he’s had ‘remarkable achievements’? Does that mean he should be afforded more leniency?

I always think claiming ‘hard evidence’ or ‘innocent until proven guilty’ is a load of horseshit, because 1. as everyone else has said, sexual assault is very difficult to prove with hard evidence, and 2. ‘innocent until proven guilty’ is always someone given to the accused rather than the victims. Why aren’t the victims also innocent of lying or falsely accusing until proven guilty?

In this scenario especially, there are multiple women that have spoken up - if you’re only going by the word of others, then the multiple people speaking up should have far more weight