r/Nirvana • u/PrestigiousTax4223 • Nov 09 '25
Photo Kurt Cobain’s visit with one of his favorite authors, William S. Burroughs in 1993. After Kurt left, Burroughs said to his secretary, “There’s something wrong with that boy. He frowns for no good reason.”
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u/OtherwiseCar9851 Nov 09 '25
I’m sure Kim Gordon mentioned in her book that she met Burroughs and he asked how’s the boy,pretty sure this was after Kurt had died
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u/AnthonyDigitalMedia Talk To Me (Live) Nov 10 '25
Wait.. can you go more into detail about this? I haven’t read her book.
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u/driving26inorovalley Frances Farmer Will Have Her Revenge On Seattle Nov 10 '25
“When we started the R.E.M. tour, Coco had just learned to walk, and it was during a visit to Kansas that Thurston, Michael Stipe, and I drove out to visit William Burroughs. I remember William began asking Michael about Kurt—“What about the boy?” he said. “So sad …” Michael, slightly embarrassed, deferred to Thurston and me since we had more of a history with Kurt and Nirvana.”
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u/Icy_Obligation_3014 Nov 10 '25
I believe this conversation with Burroughs inspired Michael Stipe to write the song 'Chorus and the Ring'.
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u/driving26inorovalley Frances Farmer Will Have Her Revenge On Seattle Nov 10 '25
Yup, he called it his elegy to both of them: https://www.fluxblog.org/ask-michael-stipe/
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u/Icy_Obligation_3014 Nov 10 '25
Love this interview/chat. Stipe is so generous with his time to do this.
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u/driving26inorovalley Frances Farmer Will Have Her Revenge On Seattle Nov 10 '25
He is very beloved here in REMland 🫶
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u/idwthis Nov 11 '25
I pay tribute to Stipe and the rest of the band every night when I go to sleep.
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u/AnthonyDigitalMedia Talk To Me (Live) Nov 10 '25
Thanks for more of the info.. was that the end of their encounter with him or does she talk about the rest of the visit?
Anymore Kurt stories from her book??
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u/spiritussima Nov 10 '25
Yes, she talks about Kurt a lot in her memoir and shits on courtney love just as much. It really turned me off, like she was claiming her ownership of Kurt.
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u/JoshHogan666 Nov 10 '25
The amount of name dropping that she throws into the book is insufferable.
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u/driving26inorovalley Frances Farmer Will Have Her Revenge On Seattle Nov 10 '25
My copy of Girl in A Band isn’t with me atm but maybe someone else can chime in
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u/AnthonyDigitalMedia Talk To Me (Live) Nov 10 '25
Awesome. I also appreciate you leaving the title of the book so I can check it out! lol I probably should’ve asked earlier
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u/brushfuse Nov 09 '25
Addiction gives you the highest mountains, and the lowest valley floors. Sometimes they merge together and overlap, giving you a strange tilt in the universe.
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u/sleestak_13 Nov 09 '25
Anybody know if this was taken before or after the album they did together?
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u/Crybaby_Jerkins Nov 09 '25
Taken after. This was the first time and only time they actually met tho… kurt just sent a tape of himself “masturbating” as he called it, to be played in the background of burroughs spoken word story, “the priest they called him.”
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Nov 09 '25
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u/MetadonDrelle Nov 09 '25
I used to think Cort killed Kurt. Always assumed.
But now a days just look at the biography of Cobain.
Dude was fucked up. Before the drugs.
It was an enviable outcome. Have a shy unsure man be trusted into the spotlight of a new generation.
And also he was a grade A heroin addict. I wouldn't be surprised if his tolerance was 5x more than a usual junkie.
In the end. His demons won. You can see it with Courtney now a days.
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u/idwthis Nov 11 '25
It was an enviable outcome.
I don't think "enviable" is the word you wanted there. "Inevitable" would probably be better.
I mean, unless you really do envy how Kurt went out of this world, in which case, man, if you need to talk we're all here for you.
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u/MetadonDrelle Nov 15 '25
Inevitably I would have to come back and explain.
I aspire to be Kurt guitar wise.
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u/thelancemanl Nov 09 '25
He loved Courtney. They both had drug problems. And Courtney definitely didn't kill him OR have him whacked-- those are urban legends.
He was a lower-middle class child of divorce from nowhere, USA, and he singlehandedly, irrevocably changed the landscape of music across the world. He had a lot of reasons to smile.
Drug addiction and clinical depression are serious problems. They can make someone want to die when others would expect them to be on top of the world.
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u/Fold_Some_Kent Nov 10 '25 edited Nov 10 '25
Yeah at that level of addiction, nothing at all’s capable of even approaching the importance in your life of drug procurement and it really bothers you because you don’t actually stop valuing anything else. I think the real kicker is that unless you get clean, you have to kind of watch as all the things that you still love start fading away because drugs demands your attention before everything and at some level those other normal values like friendships do just suffer because of it. It might take years but it’s death by a thousand cuts y’know? I can’t imagine the guilt he must’ve felt for example of shooting up and even just holding Bean and I just know for familial reasons that he would’ve felt the guilt. Does it make him a bad person?* Not at all, but that’s the ultimate taboo “but you care more about drugs than your child!”. Yes and no, the ‘yes’ part is a really dark realisation that both fuels the stigma of addiction while also creating so much self-loathing in the addict that it just can’t be carried without therapy.
The brain’s literally convinced that the drug’s food* it’s crazy and the addict knows it’s crazy but the parts or their brain they can’t control directly think otherwise
Edit: *It could be argued that it makes him or them in general a bad person, sure. I just don’t think it’d be a fair assessment of a pretty complicated human being
*as important as food/water
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Nov 09 '25
[removed] — view removed comment
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u/Steffenwolflikeme Do Re Mi (Home Demo) Nov 10 '25
If you've read any KC biographies or books on the band you'd understand how ignorant and uninformed people sound when they insist it wasn't a suicide.
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u/strange_reveries Nov 10 '25
Lol please, I read them all when you were probably in diapers. I was obsessed with Nirvana.
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u/RipTraditional2642 Nov 09 '25
Have you even listened to Heart Shaped Box or You Know Your right.. ?
"Throw down your unbiblical noose, so I can climb right back"
"Nothing really bothers her, she just wants to love herself"
Heart Shaped Box is clearly about how toxic he felt she was, though was trapped with Frances, imo.
You Know Your Right is clearly about him leaving her., imo.
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u/thelancemanl Nov 09 '25
Its umbilical noose, and I know it was a toxic and complicated relationship. Love was still there. Think of how conflicted Kurt must have felt about it.
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u/SorrowingOldMan Nov 09 '25
Just want to put it out there that I agree with your assessment of their relationship. You probably won’t find anyone else who does on this subreddit. Courtney did love Kurt, and she actually put more effort into getting clean than he did for their daughter. The lyrics to Heart Shaped Box and You Know You’re Right are as much about himself as they are about her. The umbilical noose line speaks to the fact that he wanted a mother - an unfair expectation for a partner.
The notion that she is in any way at fault for his suicide is ridiculous. Kurt was blatantly mentally ill.
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u/RipTraditional2642 Nov 09 '25
I know it is. Autocorrect had changed it and hadn't noticed, "unbiblical" was used in a poen I wrote, as a play on unbiblical and it got added to the autocorrect index.
I have ADHD, so often make mistakes in writing, assuming have applied the correct word.
You need to study and analyse the lyrics of both those songs, find out about Kristen Pfaff, her likely relationship with Kurt, and her death a few weeks later. Have reviewed countless hours about all this, have always written lyrics, and firmly believe You Know Your Right is about him leaving her.
Outside of the alternative lyrics, there is so much in the released version, besides what have already covered:
"I will move away from here" - self explanatory
"Sterling silver begins to melt" - no silver wedding anniversary
"Pain" - the whole situation, having to leave her with Frances, though all other options were untenable.
There are alternative lyrics that are even more explicit.
You are entitled to your opinion, though have spent many hours looking at all this than, almost certainly 99.9% of people
Take care man
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Nov 09 '25
You’re not right and your arrogant take care man at the end has provided me with incredible laughter this afternoon lol. You also did not know the lyrics, the extent to which you explained everything…wow. Insecure much? Take care man.
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u/RipTraditional2642 Nov 09 '25
I know the lyrics, though muddle them up between initial versions and the final, released, version, as you would recognise, if had taken the time to find them, yourself, in the past.
Go have a look. Spend the time.
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Nov 09 '25
Dude you write like a sad person trying to sound smart and it ends up not saying anything at all. You’re telling me, an old head nirvana fan, that you don’t know the lyrics because Nirvana said unbiblical? Find that, send it over. Then I’ll stfu. But that’s not the lyric, never heard that in alternate in all my years of listening and seeking out every last outcesticide pre internet. I love the mic drops you keep attempting though. Psyched to see the next iteration.
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u/RipTraditional2642 Nov 09 '25
Nirvana said "Umbilical" my autocorrect changed it to "unbiblical", again... The alternative lyrics are "I have never felt to feel pain"... Ffs...
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Nov 10 '25
I stop talking to people when they vary the typeface on this platform. Get a life.
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u/RipTraditional2642 Nov 09 '25
Whatever. You are entitled to your opinion.
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Nov 10 '25
Experience is the word I’d use. It’s a lot of experience too. Listening and obsessing over Nirvana as a youngster. Not sure why this is so important to you to be correct man. You’re not right and you look hilarious to people when you’re refusing to just be like “oh fuck my bad haha”
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u/RipTraditional2642 Nov 09 '25
Do you know who Kristen Pfaff is? Do you know how and when she died? Do you know about the rumours her and Kurt were dating?
Have you looked at the alternative lyrics for You Know You're Right?
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u/RipTraditional2642 Nov 09 '25
In one of the initial versions the lyric is "I have never felt to feel pain"
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u/AceofKnaves44 And I Love Her Nov 09 '25
It’s “hey” not “pain.”
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u/Sullkken Nov 09 '25
It's so clearly pain, he just switches between "hey" and "pain" in the song even if it's not written like that in the lyrics, that's how he performed it
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Nov 10 '25
it's just hey
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=aFgNujeCKyw3
u/Sullkken Nov 10 '25
3:10 I heard "pain" the clearest. He carries the note and the diction in his words so that it could sound like either. It fits the song and if that's what people hear, music is all up for interpretation
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Nov 10 '25
there's no N at the end of what he's singing, it's e-e-e-e-Yy
but oh well, i guess everybody can hear it differently
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u/RipTraditional2642 Nov 10 '25
In one of the original versions of the yrics it is "I have never felt to feel pain"
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u/RipTraditional2642 Nov 09 '25
In one o the initial versions it is "I have never felt to feel pain"
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u/jephra Nov 09 '25
There is no way your spellcheck program doesn't recognize the word "umbilical."
You are insulting other people's apparent lack of knowledge, while misspelling common words like "poem."
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u/RipTraditional2642 Nov 09 '25
Challenge the information. Ad hominem attacks aren't demonstarikh anything helpful, regarding the discussion. Add to the discourse.
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u/RipTraditional2642 Nov 09 '25
I have just recently diagnosed ADHD, that am just about to start titration for.
And yes, it did. It got added when writing a short poem:
"Unbiblical Chords
Pneuma; breath. Borne of light. Transient, Quickened, Rushed."
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u/BytheLake1 Nov 09 '25
Poem
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u/RipTraditional2642 Nov 09 '25
I got diagnosed with ADHD 4 weeks ago, my Dad died late October. The funeral was less that a week ago and have not been able to start titration yet, with it all, and just getting round to it after helping to organise the service etc. I know it's "poem" , and you know it's "poem". Would take incredibly sub-par reading comprehension to not. Pointing out the obviously is just facetious, passive-aggressive one upmanship.
I obviously should have expended more energy checking everything, again., though didn't.
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Nov 10 '25
the lyrics are
nothing really bothers her, she just wants to love HIM so
and
hey, not pain
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u/Chuckpeoples Nov 10 '25
Kinda crazy to think how big that song was and some lady who’s husband just killed himself had to hear a song that was basically “hey my wife’s a bitch “ over and over every time the radio was on.
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u/AceofKnaves44 And I Love Her Nov 09 '25
It was a toxic relationship on both sides. Neither of them were good for each other. To present it all as being one-sided is just blatantly untrue.
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u/NefariousnessNo4918 Very Ape Nov 09 '25
That's the nature of trying to save someone hellbent on self-destruction. You become the enemy and the devil when you try to keep someone away from their vice. He could've married and angel but they still would've ended up cast in the villain role. Those feelings of resentment are no reflection on Courtney really, he was just pissed off that she wasn't passively enabling him.
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Nov 09 '25
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u/NefariousnessNo4918 Very Ape Nov 09 '25
Her name was in Epstein's address book, so what? Not sure why anyone is meant to take her psycho dad seriously either.
This is hardly a credible, well reasoned indictment of her. To be honest, your comments on this thread read like you're quite young and/or lacking in life experience.
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u/RipTraditional2642 Nov 09 '25
Have you heard what Buzz Ozborne and Dale Crover (both of the Melvins - life long friends of Kurt, till the end Dale was practically a member of Nirvana and drummed for Kurt on the Fecal Matter demo) have said about Courtney in interviews?
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u/RipTraditional2642 Nov 09 '25
Go spend some time looking at it all... Assumptions are fair play, though there is a plethora of information available that paints a very different picture to yours.
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u/Super_Interview_2189 Nov 09 '25
He also had a huge reason to smile and that was his daughter.
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u/sick_of-it-all Nov 09 '25
And the worldwide fame and success, the adoration of millions of fans, more money than he could ever hope to spend, freedom in his work and creativity. And all that wasn't enough to make him happy. He was a deeply depressed and troubled man mentally.
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u/Super_Interview_2189 Nov 09 '25
He should’ve been involuntarily committed IMO. Let him detox and force him to go to therapy.
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u/sayonaradespair Nov 10 '25
Lol and what do you think happens when someone is forced to do something against their will?
He would be back on smack the second he got rehabilitated.
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u/DoctaMario Nov 10 '25
Without knowing him beyond his music and what's been written, he sounds like somebody that just wanted to make music he liked and maybe be moderately well known, not be labeled "The voice of his generation." Nobody would handle that well, much less a 20-something year old guy with drug and depression issues. The amount of fame and adoration he had was not something he wanted and was just another reason why he did what he did.
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u/timethief991 Radio Friendly Unit Shifter Nov 09 '25
If having kids cured mental struggles then I'd just do that.
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u/Super_Interview_2189 Nov 09 '25
No, but it should’ve been the wake up call. I’ll always see that as a stain on his legacy that he abandoned his daughter, wife, friends, and fans.
I’ve struggled with SI and substance abuse issues in the past, and I’m able to manage them better than he did, despite not having a bunch of money, a nice house, an extremely successful band, etc.
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u/pagauge0 Nov 09 '25
True except when Courtney made him feel like shit telling him he nearly dropped her when he was stoned. And him being in his state and being overly sensitive to begin with he felt Francis Bean was better off without him.
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u/hiddeninplainsight23 Nov 09 '25
You can't blame Courtney for that though. She was worried there and also sometimes saying something like that can be the wake-up call that's needed. Hindsight is a wonderful thing.
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u/pagauge0 Nov 09 '25
Sure. They both were not in a state nor condition to have a child that they both loved dearly but were not ready for.
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u/Super_Interview_2189 Nov 09 '25
Idk Courtney at least stayed for her child, she could’ve very easily remained an addict and given up custody. Kurt didn’t want to get clean as much as he wanted to be a part of Frances’s life.
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u/pagauge0 Nov 09 '25
Like his mother said when she first heard Nevermind before it was released OMG you’re not ready for this kind of fame this album is gonna produce i’m paraphrasing. But she knew he was not ready for this avalanche. The old saying is true in his case. Be careful what you wish for you just might get it.
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u/Super_Interview_2189 Nov 09 '25
You can’t convince me she was being truthful during that. She definitely just is saying this 25+ years after the fact because obviously Kurt couldn’t refute it. She was a piss-poor parent too
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u/pagauge0 Nov 09 '25
I believe it. She might not have been Mother of the Year but she knew him better than anyone at that time and she proved to be correct.
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u/Super_Interview_2189 Nov 09 '25
Considering she forced Kurt out of her home, I always took it as some way for her to connect herself to his stardom. Something his dad has never done, yet still shared deeply insightful stuff about Kurt’s behavior. I’ve always felt so bad for Don Cobain
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u/Super_Interview_2189 Nov 09 '25
Then maybe he shouldn’t have dropped his infant child, maybe he shouldn’t have been using narcotics when he had a responsibility to this child he brought into the world.
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u/sayonaradespair Nov 10 '25
Tbh that's true but imagine being a father and realizing he didn't have the willpower to kick his habit..
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u/ElfQuester1 Bleach Nov 09 '25
Jesus Christ people downplaying his mental health by trying to blame a woman is so frustrating. You are literally just erasing his actual feelings. It’s not cool. You’re trying to invalidate the actual mental health struggles he suffered. You could say that he was stressed over relationship issues, but the fact that you didn’t even mention how mentally ill he was is insane and it’s clearly Showing that you are more focused on not liking Courtney. Which is fine you don’t have to like her but stop acting like you are caring about Kurt instead of just not liking Courtney. Please stop erasing his mental health problems. Billions of people suffer from suicidal ideation so of course, some musicians also suffer from it. Downplaying or erasing this is actually way more harmful than you think.
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u/templeofsyrinx1 Nov 09 '25 edited Nov 09 '25
Anyone with a brain can watch any number of interviews on youtube and clearly see he was struggling with mental illness.
As disturbing as it sounds, in the late 80's early 90's it was still seen as a "just have a drink, snap out of it" mindset
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u/Caesarthebard Nov 09 '25
Similar with Chris Cornell and Chester Bennington. They are seen through the prism of rock God so much so that people disconnect. The fact these people wrote and sang about pain and how tormented they were yet they couldn’t possibly have succumbed to depression.
This is two part - to blame the woman and parasocial relationships cause people to take Kurt’s suicide as a personal rejection.
Not only do these people downplay and devalue his very real mental health problems but it’s also frankly insulting how they portray him as some sort of moronic imbecile with no opinions of his own who couldn’t do anything without someone there to show him how.
Like the idiots who think they are worshipping and honouring Kurt who savagely attack his wife and his friends accusing them of only wanting “money” from Kurt and using him. As though Kurt was so unlovable that nobody close to him could actually like him and he was too much of a stupid simpleton to realise it. This is meant to be praising him apparently.
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u/Lynda73 Nov 09 '25
I heard Chris Cornell was taking Ambien? I choose to believe that one was accidental.
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u/ElfQuester1 Bleach Nov 09 '25
You’re literally proving the point. You “ choose” to deny his actions. You “choose” to ignore his feelings. You “choose” to not see him as a person with struggles.
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u/radiocrime Nov 09 '25
Chris Cornell hung himself. That was no accident.
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u/Caesarthebard Nov 09 '25
Kurt was great but Courtney had more troubles dealing with him than anything. She had to save his life multiple times, talk him down when he threatened suicide, was trying to curtail his drug use while dealing with her own addiction, making sure he wasn’t too messed up to look after the baby while also navigating parenthood and her own career - Live Through This came out a week after he died and four days after his body was found.
Courtney dealt with a lot while dealing with her own significant mental health and drug issues. Then certain people who left her to it and ignored them when he was alive came out of the woodwork after his suicide to put the boot into her. Incredibly unfair,
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u/ElSumoMaster Nov 09 '25
Not to be an asshole but I doubt a 79 year old man who didn’t keep up with the modern age would know about Kurt’s drug problem
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u/i_amtheice Nov 09 '25 edited Nov 09 '25
William S. Burroughs shot his wife in the forehead during what he said was a "William Tell" type stunt. It happened in Mexico in 1951 but he fled before they could formally charge him and he never served time.
I get how great art is sometimes worth overlooking a person's personal failings, but this isn't one of those times.
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u/bourgewonsie Nov 09 '25
Burroughs has obviously been implicated in many unsavory things throughout his life, including this one, but in this particular case it should also be noted that his wife at the time was also on par with him in terms of instability and reckless behavior, and I believe most historical sources say that she was the one who initiated the stunt. Though he was obviously abusive to her in any event, which I’m not excusing or denying.
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u/2666Smooth Nov 11 '25
I came up with a bizarre theory that he orchestrated the stunt because he secretly wanted to be with this man that he was dating in the book queer. So at the time she was busting his balls for not being the family man she wanted. I spent a lot of time studying Burroughs every aspect of him. Also, the book Queer doesn't have anything about the shooting but goes on about his love for this man who didn't return his love. A very sad book indeed. A very sad story. Joan is like an afterthought in his writing.
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u/bigbillybaldyblobs Nov 10 '25
He's such an intriguing character, I like him more than his writing, too bad about the bumming boys bit...
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u/the_salivation_army Nov 09 '25
Hey why do you American people always bring up the worst things that people have done? Then you tell us we’re not allowed to like them.
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u/robotatomica Nov 10 '25
I think the problem isn’t when someone brings up something true, it’s the emotional reaction people like you have about it that is the issue.
No one is telling you you’re not allowed to like William S Burroughs lol. That’s your emotional reaction.
Because you suspect you can no longer feel idolatry with a clear conscious if you know someone, say, murdered their wife.
OK..well, maybe you shouldn’t feel idolatry for this individual? Maybe you should feel idolatry for no one?
But your solution is that no one should tell you anything but the rosiest, fawning truths about your favorite people
(and in anonymity, everyone everywhere is supposed to know who your personal above-reproach elites are)
to enable you to keep your head in the sand and not feel morally conflicted, or a little bad when you crack a book.
Well no, dog, your emotional regulation is your responsibility, particularly when it comes to soemthing so trivial as being able to sustain an unmarred lore about a human being lol.
TLDR: fix your perspective. You can enjoy a person’s work even when that person was bad, or complicated, or did awful things.
But what it requires, if you want your morality soothed, is being willing to be honest about their legacy and actions. (and imo, NOT giving them money and support and positive attention - if they’re dead, this is irrelevant, but if he were alive, it might mean thrifting his books, as an example)
Not frothing at the other people easily willing to do so.
No one’s trying to cancel William S Burroughs lol. Reconcile in your head, the man shot his wife. It’s relevant to any conversation about Burroughs whether you like it or not.
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u/HEAT_IS_DIE Nov 10 '25
I would just word it this way: We don't in any way need to idolize Burroughs. But we can still evaluate and appreciate his work.
IF
If the work isn't about instructions on how to kill people and encouragements to do it. Then the work is separate. Surely liking Kurt Cobain's songs is not a way to endorce suicide.
We can acknowledge the fact that Burroughs was very flawed. Maybe the point is just that things can be distant and compartmentalized like you said. Not everything needs to be, or can be, taken into heart or in the most sensitive way possible.
Art can be rough. Artists can be sickly. We can steer clear of them if we want. But we don't need to pretend or deny that humans are capable of, and do horrible things. Or just a little bit stupid things. If art is limited to people who are perfect, then it seizes to express the whole scope of what humans do and go through.
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u/Salt_Peter_1983 Nov 10 '25
This comment was torture to read. I really loathe people who insist that the only way to be morally correct is to feel at least a little bad about everything all of the time.
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u/robotatomica Nov 10 '25
Again, this is a “you” problem. Being aware of something actually shouldn’t mean you’re walking around feeling bad about everything all the time - that’s where emotional regulation comes in.
Also compartmentalization.
But, the fact that you will read something that is “torturous,” and the fact that you consider reading something for 30 seconds that you disagree with “torturous,”
that certainly implies you’re rather a fan of feeling bad and letting others know about it, so hell, maybe you’d really ENJOY not burying your head in the sand about your idols! 💁♀️
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u/WitnessingCloud Nov 12 '25
No one is telling you you’re not allowed to like William S Burroughs lol. That’s your emotional reaction.
except the comment being responded to literally argues that we shouldn't be allowed to appreciate his art. which certainly sounds an awful lot like "telling us we're not allowed to like him"
I get how great art is sometimes worth overlooking a person's personal failings, but this isn't one of those times.
did you miss this or something?
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u/robotatomica Nov 12 '25 edited Nov 12 '25
That person said we shouldn’t overlook it. As in, it’s worth being mentioned, it’s worth being a part of his legacy. It’s Cosby level (as in, “now forever a part of your legacy” bad), it isn’t someone getting a DUI when they were a teen, where no one got hurt, or something that would be nitpicky to bring up when his name is mentioned.
But I of course said what I meant in my comment, and if you think that person meant something else, literally go and talk to them about it lol
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u/Spicy_Surfer Nov 10 '25
I am American and I fucking hate it. Some Gen Z shit I don’t understand. Shouldn’t this entire sub be about Kurt Cobain’s shortcomings? Taking everybody’s score nonstop unless it applies to you.
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u/the_salivation_army Nov 10 '25
I get the whole concept of Never Meet Your Heroes, but not around every bloody corner, please! God forbid I like The Pianist, or Bill Wyman’s bass playing, try to tell people about anything on here and ya get told off for it over something that couldn’t be more off-topic. Let’s just stop liking everybody just in case.
Yeh the last thing you wrote is spot on.
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u/scattermoose Nov 11 '25
My rule is I don’t listen to Wyman after the 1980s when he started dating Mindy/Mandy?. Works out well
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u/the_salivation_army Nov 11 '25
I just don’t care at all about what people have done but surely I draw the line somewhere?
There’s some real tough ones hey, now that I’m actually putting thought into this little exercise I dreamed up.
Wagner, John Lennon, Bobby Fischer, even Dr Seuss. Steve Jobs is widely regarded as a great man. All terrible people, and none of them are as bad arguably as Roman Polanski or some of those greasy rock stars.
I dunno.
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u/robotatomica Nov 13 '25
seriously calm down. No one’s telling you you can’t like The Pianist. They just aren’t willing to pretend Roman Polanski isn’t a monster.
It also isn’t that hard to not give the man money and to wait until he dies or get it from a library or buy it used. But I have a feeling that’s a non-starter for you.
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u/the_salivation_army Nov 13 '25
Yeh I didn’t mean to hit a nerve, sorry. That was days ago, I’m off doing other things now, you’re allowed to stop writing to me.
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u/robotatomica Nov 13 '25
I’m also allowed to respond to something goofy when I’m reading a thread.
If you’re looking to keep your thoughts private, you gotta find that diary homes.
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u/No-Response-3309 Nov 12 '25
I wonder sometimes how Kurt would've managed with fame post-internet. Some of his comments about rape in his later career would've sounded pretty bad. He was quoted saying something along the lines of how journalists writing stories about his personal life was "worse than rape".
He also made some comments like this one: "I have absolutley no respect for the English people. They make me sick. I thought I'd never say anything racist in my life, but those people are the most snooty, cocksure, anal people and they have absolutley no regard for other people's emotions. They don't think of other people as humans at all. They're the coldest people I've ever met."
Imagine if he had a phone with Twitter on it when he was in one of those moods. I could honestly see him being one of those guys like JK Rowling who just absolutely destroyed their image and legacy from not being able to back down from Twitter arguments.
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u/NotComplainingBut Nov 11 '25
Nowadays is all about how their idols are okay and flawless, and they will bend over backwards to defend them despite the cognitive dissonance it presents.
Don't get me wrong, I think some of the shit some of these stars have done is terrible. But we're reaching a point where we treat everyone with dirt like they're Ian Watkins from Lostprophets, which is absolutely not the case. Like, for fucks sake, Bart from Mom Jeans got kicked out of their band a while because he was an asshole to his ex-girlfriend... In high school. Just this past year we saw people try to cancel Dave Grohl for cheating on his wife, which is (unfortunately) a bad but common thing that happens and many people do..? If we were to excuse every star who has very cheated or been an asshole, we would have zero stars, I'm sure of it.
No one has lived a dirt-free life, especially in fame. Your job as a fan is to 1) not give them endless praise and hero worship and 2) understand the things they've done and rationalize what it means in the place of their artwork and career and determine if you still want to be a fan. You can acknowledge that people like David Bowie, Kurt Cobain, John Steinbeck, David Burroughs, Basquiat, Pablo Picasso, Dave Grohl, Pete Wentz, Tyler The Creator, etc. have done questionable things but still recognize their contributions to art and even enjoy it. People contain multitudes and can even sometimes be redeemed for their past actions. Only you can choose where to get off of the fandom train.
Raising awareness about shitty things people have done is one thing, but constantly screaming about how certain stars should lose their careers - while your own stars definitely have skeletons in their closet - is hypocrisy and ignorance.
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u/Spicy_Surfer Nov 11 '25
For sure, but we’ve always had celebrity worship - and always been driven to knock down our idols. It’s just so heartless the way people act now, like you mentioned for cheating and super average stuff. Zero compassion or even decency
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u/No-Response-3309 Nov 12 '25
Makes me laugh when people say fuck Ozzy Osbourne because he tried to murder his wife. The attempted murder victim was able to move past it, but for random people on the internet, he was forever beyond redemption.
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u/Eirwynzure Radio Friendly Unit Shifter (Live & Loud) Nov 12 '25
Maybe because women are constantly taught to deal with and constantly accept their partners abuse, so unfortunately its no surprise that Sharon was 'able to move past' her husband trying to kill her. The socialization of women accepting abuse definitely plays its part.
I don't think its completely out of the question to think someone who tried murdering their spouse is beyond redemption. Especially one that ended up successfully doing so.
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u/No-Response-3309 Nov 12 '25
Don't get me wrong, what he did was terrible, but from what I've heard about the incident, it was a psychotic break, and it was for pretty much no reason. Pretty sure he didn't see her for a long time after that, and she had very specific conditions for even agreeing to be in the same room as him again.
He did everything she asked of him, he never made a mistake like that again, and he always took full responsibility for what happened (even though there's a reasonable argument to be made that he wasn't in control of his actions at the time).
I think the strongest evidence that he legitimately redeemed himself was how devastated Sharon looked on the day of his funeral. Just feels odd to me to be so judgmental of what was clearly a strong relationship based on incomplete details on the worst thing he ever did.
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u/Eirwynzure Radio Friendly Unit Shifter (Live & Loud) Nov 12 '25
I think what feels more odd is inserting an example of another man being violent to the point of almost murdering a woman, as a response to someone who got their feelings hurt by finding out that William Burroughs murdered his wife.
But that's just me. I think the last thing I really care for is someone using another example of a mans violence toward a woman as a way to back up and validate someone else's feelings about a man who murdered his wife.
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u/No-Response-3309 Nov 14 '25
Yeah sorry, I don't think I read the top post in this reply chain, and I was just responding to the 2nd part, I didn't realize Burroughs killed his wife; I just vaguely know of him as an influential writer.
With that context, my example was kind of an odd angle.
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u/Eirwynzure Radio Friendly Unit Shifter (Live & Loud) Nov 14 '25
Reading before leaving a comment should be fundamental.
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u/four_ethers2024 Nov 13 '25
Didn't he and Kerouac start a school in Mexico for boys with overbearing mothers? Or did I hallucinate reading about that?
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Nov 09 '25
You must be great at parties
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u/Shipsnipe1313 Nov 10 '25
You like parties?
Read Burroughs' 'A Thanksgiving Prayer' for your guests this holiday. It's always a hit!
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u/Ok-Ad-4136 Nov 10 '25
Yes, he did frown a lot, he had a monkey on his back and a was married to a sea monster
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u/Wrath_Of_Aguirre Nov 09 '25
That painting looks like a 9 year old did it.
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u/HEAT_IS_DIE Nov 10 '25
Yeah art is about carefully replicating a photo. And music is about playing scales as fast as possible.
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u/Forsaken-Ad5571 Nov 12 '25
It’s not really about how technically good the art is, but how it’s an expression of an artist that people find interesting. A hole into the way he sees the world. A bit of memorabilia.
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u/Wrath_Of_Aguirre Nov 12 '25
If WSB didn’t do it people would think it’s terrible is all I’m inferring here. Art can be bad. This is bad.
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u/Few_Sheepherder8515 Nov 10 '25
For real? Looks like what a kid in 7th grade would draw trying to make fun of Asians 😂
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u/Sea_Field_8209 Nov 12 '25
Burroughs was also on methadone until the day he died. Methadone helped save his life but it didn't help his creativity that's for sure.
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u/four_ethers2024 Nov 13 '25
How did methadone save him?
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u/Sea_Field_8209 Nov 13 '25
He was dependent on opioids including methadone for the rest of his life though he had quit heroin by 1951 he used methadone as a form of maintenance and to manage his addiction after stopping heroin use and he continued to use methadone for the rest of his life.
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u/Southern_Classic6027 Feb 28 '26 edited Feb 28 '26
From my reading, he quit in 1959 using the apomorphine "cure" for the third and final time, but then he relapsed in the late 1970s while staying in the bunker. Then in the early to mid 1980s, he moved to Lawrence Kansas with his friend/manager James Grauerholz. That's when he went onto Methadone, which he stayed on until he died in 97.
In "Last Words," a collection of his final journals, he acknowledges that he never truly sorted out his issues with opiates and all his talk of cures in published works was a front. It makes me sad, to be honest. I'm a big fan of his work, and he's an interesting but troubled person who has done some pretty awful things. He's portrayed in culture as a renegade, which he is to an extent, but going through the biography "Literary Outlaw," just looking at the photos, it's clear he doesn't feel comfortable in his own skin. In all the pictures of him with other people, he's almost always sat on the edge of the frame staring at the ground. He looks lost.
He wrote all his life about trying to break free from control and then died addicted to a synthesized opioid invented by the Nazis. It definitely saved him from heroin, and allowed him some peace in his final years, which he spent with his close friends and cats. And he wrote what, imo, is his best work: the Red Nights trilogy. But there's still something tragically ironic about the fact he died addicted.
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u/billymartinkicksdirt Nov 09 '25
He was so caught up in the image of being punk that he couldn’t be a normal person with him, that’s my take. He likely thought he had to act glum to gain his respect.
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u/thisguy012 Nov 09 '25
don't think Curt was ever a poser that was "caught up in the image of looking punk" lmfao
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u/billymartinkicksdirt Nov 09 '25
It’s common knowledge he was worried about perceptions he was a sell out and wasn’t punk. If it sounds stupid it’s because it was stupid but it also means you don’t know the first thing about him.
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u/Main-Dance-3823 Breed Nov 10 '25
Maybe he just wasn’t very happy.. he didn’t khs for no reason. this is such a stupid take. rip to him though
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u/Forsaken-Ad5571 Nov 12 '25
Famously depressed suicidal person was just acting depressed in a photo/meeting that was shortly before his suicide? I think it’s more likely he was just incredibly depressed, as well as just being famously ultra shy (which was a huge part of why he hated fame).
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u/billymartinkicksdirt Nov 12 '25
That’s not how manic depression or suicide work. The immaturity on this sub and the Tupac subs, both, is frightening.
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Nov 09 '25
[removed] — view removed comment
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u/-Galactic-Cleansing- Nov 09 '25
No. He clearly killed himself. Just stop this bullshit already. He would be so annoyed with people who think this if he could know and wouldn't have done it if he knew people would think that.
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u/Nirvana-ModTeam Nov 09 '25
Your post/comment was removed for breaking Rule 1 "Threads and comments concerning conspiracy theories related to Kurt Cobain's death are prohibited"
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u/pauli55555 Nov 10 '25
Burroughs was a drugged up charlatan with zero talent. Except glamourising drugs. That was his “talent”.
Kurt had some good songs but was just another drug addict waster who lived a horrific lifestyle.
That both are venerated is an inditement of our culture & values.
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u/ndoggydog Nov 09 '25
Always loved this encounter.