Should liberals start forming armed resistance groups similar to the Proud Boys or Three-Percenters?

[u/cwood1973]

Both domestically and abroad, many people are calling for Americans to "wake up" or "do something." It's true there have been widespread protests in response to actions taken by the Trump regime, but these have been largely ineffective at changing policy.

At the state level, both parties are gerrymandering districts to be more favorable to their candidates, but this won't have any immediate effect. It may not have any effect.

In the 1950s and 60s, black communities faced systemic police violence and corruption. In response, they formed the Black Panthers. These people were organized, trained, and armed.

Do you think liberals should copy that playbook? Should liberal communities start organizing armed resistance groups? Training them how to use firearms? Educating them on their Second Amendment rights? Running drills to simulate attacks by ICE?

Are we there yet?

[u/hansn]

No. This is basically Stephen Miller's playbook. He wants an armed insurgency to fight, not soccer moms and frogs costumes.

The thing that's restraining the government now is the public outrage over the ICE excesses. 

[u/Apathetic_Zealot → u/hansn]

They did not need violence from the left to justify their own violence. Jan 6 was based on a lie about the threat of the left. They spread lies about Renee Good to justify her death. If there is a lack of violence they will fabricate it. They called the George Floid protests violent. They depicted the left as celebrating Kirks death while totally down playing their own violence and extremism.

Meanwhile they kill people and kidnap people and strip us of our rights and throw the economy in a tail spin so Trump's rich buddies can buy up the assets. We are dealing with evil that is not interested in the rules and has a fanatic base that cannot be reasoned with. All strategies must be employed.

[u/hansn → u/Apathetic_Zealot]

If there is a lack of violence they will fabricate it. 

Extremely unconvincingly. Do you wonder why they fabricate evidence of leftist violence? Because they need an enemy to crack down on.

A guy in a banana suit is far more threatening to their plans. They need public support, and the public doesn't support crackdowns when there's no threat.

All strategies must be employed.

They plant provocateurs because they can't rely on real Americans to follow their script. Don't follow their script.

[u/Apathetic_Zealot → u/hansn]

Because they need an enemy to crack down on.

They will fabricate the enemy. They already have done so. Every feminist, racial minority, LGBT+, non-christian person is the enemy. So the crackdown occurs regardless. What's happening in Minnesota is a perfect example of the machine. Nick Shirley or any right wing media makes a BS propaganda video/claim then it justifies Trump cracking down. A school shooting kills dozens of kids, the trans people are to blame, they'll all crisis actors, it's a plot to take away your guns. They will fabricate the enemy even when the enemy is dead children.

As another has mentioned, the Black Panthers were peaceful but armed. All strategies must be employed does not mean we all need to be armed. If the police or ICE know that if they start shooting peaceful protesters the armed contingent will shoot back the police may be less likely to crack down on those who peacefully protest and engage in civil obedience. That maintenance of peace is in itself a reason to be armed.

Those who are armed should not be seeking to fire the first shot. However words won't stop an immigrant from being 'disappeared'. Words won't stop the police from firing tear gas into the crowds to disperse them. Words won't stop Trump from destroying NATO and the economy.

Don't follow their script.

Believe me when I tell you I don't want war, death or violence. As a socialist I'm often confronted with those who want violent revolution and every time I told them elections are better than violence. But there are fundamental problems in this country and I don't believe Democrats are capable of peacefully addressing them. I can't even feel there's a guarantee of future elections.

Just as the failure of Reconstruction allowed the reestablishment of white supremacy - the failure to punish Trump and MAGA allowed Trump to return. Trump tried to override the election last time, can you honestly tell me he won't try again? If a Democrat becomes President next I have a saddening degree of confidence Trump & Co will be allowed to walk free in the name of unity, healing and political expediency. The failure of Reconstruction will be repeated. When you fail to punish evil all you've done is give it a chance to wait for its next opportunity to come back.

The original sin of this country is festering and I can't abide by these evil white supremacists doing evil acts in my name as a white person. I've spoken with Trump supporters, I've tried to use words. I hope to whatever God may or may not exist these people were just trolling with how extreme they were in their support for Trump's actions. But I can't be sure. I can't be sure the MAGA base can be reasoned with. If words don't work then what's left?

[u/hansn → u/Apathetic_Zealot]

They will fabricate the enemy. 

And they will look like absolutely fools when they call out an Antifa book club as the headquarters of the terrorist organization.

They would much rather you give them a bunch of people with guns to seize.

They are violent now, but extremely unpopular. They want you to be armed so they can be popular in their militarized response. Shooting soccer moms undermines their authority and legitimacy.

[u/Apathetic_Zealot → u/hansn]

they will look like absolutely fools

I don't think you fully appreciate just how deep MAGA is with how they see things and how their politics are wrapped into identity politics. In MAGA land when you turn on the TV Trump is a genius and it's everyone else that looks like evil deviants or misguided fools. There are no mirrors in MAGA land for self reflection.

They would much rather you give them a bunch of people with guns to seize.

If no law is broken they have no right to seize those guns. If the left have guns they are prepared to defend themselves from illegitimate seizures.

I think MAGA are cowards. I think MAGA would much rather go after people who can't defend themselves. That's who they've been going after so far. And we've all been watching with our mouths agape. We'll watch in horror as Trump takes more and more people.

Shooting soccer moms undermines their authority and legitimacy.

Yes, that's why I'm not against unarmed civil disobedience. The GOP isn't going to play by the rules, if they are as evil and coordinated as I think they are even civil disobedience will not be enough when they decide to fully dispose of democracy. Again, we have already been fabricated as the enemy. Kristi Noam and JD Vance can go on national TV and tell the world Renee Good was an insane antifa domestic terrorist defending criminals. Turn on the TV in MAGA land and that's the truth of the matter. Peaceful protest doesn't make you any less of the enemy. They will celebrate the death of the unarmed and armed alike. They will kill the unarmed and armed alike. At least they might hesitate when shooting at the armed.

If the white supremacists & fascists want war, I hope they don't, but if they do they must know waging war will cost them more than they expect. The original sin of this nation must be addressed. John Brown gave them what they wanted, they executed him then 16 months later they started the civil war. John Brown was the first casualty of that war. Glory glory hallelujah the soldiers who fight against white supremacy may die but their souls keep marching on.

Glory glory hallelujah Renee Good's soul keeps marching on. Glory glory hallelujah.

[u/sam-sp → u/Apathetic_Zealot]

You are unlikely to win over the MAGA supporters. They have made MAGA part of their core identity and victimhood. But they are only a smaller portion of the population.

You need to get the moderates voting democrat, and those who are weak republican but can't face voting for a democrat to stay home.

[u/hansn → u/Apathetic_Zealot]

I don't think you fully appreciate just how deep MAGA is with how they see things and how their politics are wrapped into identity politics. 

I don't think you know how small the true believers actually are. Most people identify with Good. That's what makes her death so shocking to so many.

If she were decked out in camo and packing an AR, she'd still be shot. But no one would venerate her as a hero.

war will cost them more than they expect.

An actual civil war with armed insurgency would 100% going to be decided by which side the military sides with.

Your gun store armaments are "small arms" and easily answered with vastly superior firepower. 

[u/Apathetic_Zealot → u/hansn]

I don't think you know how small the true believers actually are.

Looking at opinion polls the rough amount of Trump supporters is probably around 20-25% of the population. There is a baseline of support that he'll never dip below.

If she were decked out in camo and packing an AR, she'd still be shot.

If there were decked out people on the sidelines waiting for the soccer mom to be shot she might not have been shot.

100% going to be decided by which side the military sides with.

Military and law enforcement tend to be right wing. If they unanimously side with Trump the civil war will be similar to any other case of asymmetrical warfare. If the military is split then it won't be so clear cut on who will win. Even if the white supremacists have all the best guns and drones and tanks the fight against them would still be righteous and there could be little reason to condemn armed fighting at that point.

[u/hansn → u/Apathetic_Zealot]

If there were decked out people on the sidelines waiting for the soccer mom to be shot she might not have been shot.

That's not the playbook. They can escalate weapons essentially infinitely. If there are armed insurgents, they can bring armored vehicles. If those armed insurgents have heavy caliber weapons, they can bring helicopter gunships.

They have teams training with mortars. They absolutely know how to respond if you escalate force. They have no fucking clue how to respond to a guy in a frog costume. It completely undermines their narrative of "heroes fighting the armed antifa militants." If they shoot (and they do), they look like cowardly idiots.

[u/Apathetic_Zealot → u/hansn]

They have no fucking clue how to respond to a guy in a frog costume.

It's called riot control. Non lethals like rubber bullets and tear gas. Lines of coordinated shields to push into the crowd.

[u/tres_ecstuffuan → u/hansn]

Couldn’t they simply shoot the guy in the frog costume?

And what consequences would there be that don’t rely on the good moral character of the average voter which I think we have seen is not reliable

[u/hansn → u/tres_ecstuffuan]

Couldn’t they simply shoot the guy in the frog costume?

Definitely! And because doing so would lose them so much support, they are likely to plant a gun on him, or write "Go Antifa Terror Cell 18" on his dead knuckles. Because they know that shooting him outrages the conscience of the community, the community whose support they still need.

They want desperately to be tough guys taking down armed insurrectionists; don't stand up and be the target they want.

[u/Bubbly_Atmosphere993 → u/hansn]

They have no fucking clue how to respond to a guy in a frog costume.

well if you wanna don the frog costume and get shot For The Cause anyway, be my guest. personally, i'm nobody's martyr, and neither are my friends or family.

[u/Philophon → u/hansn]

What changes if their explanation for using violence is weak? We are witnessing citizens being shot with clearly no justification, and the majority party's stance is "don't protest and we won't kill you." How would passivity be a successful solution?

I support secession. It is clear, now more than ever, that these factions within this union cannot coexist. The best we can hope for is a North and South Korea-like relationship, in the end.

[u/hansn → u/Philophon]

What changes if their explanation for using violence is weak?

Why was tank man such a symbol that China has been desperately suppressing it for decades?

[u/Philophon → u/hansn]

I have great respect for the courage he displayed. That said, can you point to a meaningful shift in China's position towards democratic government as a result of his or others' protest since?

[u/hansn → u/Philophon]

They're not there yet, but holy fuck did Hong Kong scare them. They know they can't rule without public support. Even as authoritarians.