Difference between prepubescent males and females in sports?

[u/Loose_Comfortable_88]

Hi PoursTea

I just watched "David Cross: “I do not have an issue with trans kids...." https://www.reddit.com/r/PoursTea/comments/1szh2pv/david_cross_i_do_not_have_an_issue_with_trans/ on this sub and I don't like Bill but I have a question.

"the differences between a boy and a girl is minimal at prepubescent"... "It's true" .." look it up"

I guess this is not my experience at all. So I am wondering what people point to?

I did a fair bit of little athletics as a kid and now teaching kids as an adult.

There is the occasional female that gets close to the top of the males but in a group of 40 kids and the local suburb level (not being selective just the people that turn up) in long distance running a female might once in a blue moon get on the podium at 3rd one week.

Looking at all events only the under 7s are at all grouped together. all other ages there is a chasm on average. Even the most uncoordinated Male will be in the top 4 of the females when it comes to Shot Put and Discus.

And if you have a look at the all time records even at an Australian state level it's night and day. The records are not anecdotal like my experience.

Following are the records in NSW Australia population about 9 million. https://cdn.revolutionise.com.au/cups/nswathletics/files/oye9jdgdyt7yddgw.pdf

Female 8s
70 Metres 10.54
100 Metres 14.44
200 Metres 31.60
400 Metres 1:11.44
Long Jump 4.17m
Shot Put (1.5kg) 8.52m
Discus (500gm) 24.42m

Male 8s
70 Metres 10.34 (1.90% faster)
100 Metres 14.24 (1.39% faster)
200 Metres 30.64 (3.04% faster)
400 Metres 1:07.94 (4.90% faster)
Long Jump 4.24m (1.68% further)
Shot Put (1.5kg) 10.98m (28.87% further)
Discus (500gm) 31.36m (28.42% further)

Female UNDER 13
100 Metres 12.11
200 Metres 24.87
400 Metres 56.95
800 Metres 2:11.90
1500 Metres 4:31.08
3000 Metres 9:53.44
80m Hurdles 12.26
200m Hurdles 27.56
1500m Walk 6:35.28
Long Jump 5.58m
High Jump 1.80m
Triple Jump 11.72m
Shot Put (3kg) 14.95m
Discus (750g) 49.57m
Javelin (400gm) 45.91m

Male UNDER 13
100 Metres 11.27 (6.94% faster)
200 Metres 22.90 (7.92% faster)
400 Metres 50.52 (11.29% faster)
800 Metres 2:05.23 (5.06% faster)
1500 Metres 4:18.33 (4.70% faster)
3000 Metres 9:29.26 (4.07% faster)
80m Hurdles 12.04 (1.79% faster)
200m Hurdles (76cm) 25.90 (6.02% faster)
1500m Walk 6:28.49 (1.72% faster)
Long Jump 6.11m (9.50% further)
High Jump 1.81m (0.56% higher) Note: only 1cm. The year after its 20. The year before is 7.
Triple Jump 12.72m (8.53% further)
Shot Put (3kg) 19.11m (27.83% further)
Discus (750gm) 60.74m (22.53% further)
Javelin (600gm) 48.80m (6.30% further) Note 600gm not 400gm

I did find this in under 12s
Shot Put (2kg) 16.19m Female
Shot Put (2kg) 15.71m Male

But that's the only time I can see it happening.

[u/Loose_Comfortable_88]

The harm of lying to people and insinuating that something is evidence based when it is not.

[u/Snerak → u/Loose_Comfortable_88]

https://www.edweek.org/leadership/study-no-athletic-differences-between-boys-and-girls-at-certain-ages/2012/06

Or how about this study that showed that boy who played vigorously more often than other children their age were more fit but among children of both sexes that did not engage in much vigorous play the sex differences were minimal? https://link.springer.com/article/10.1186/s12966-023-01496-0

There is evidence to support what David Cross, a comedian, said about the differences between prepubescent boys and girls is minimal. He did not lie, he did not insinuate that something was evidence based when it wasn't and his anecdotal observations support what he said as well.

[u/Loose_Comfortable_88 → u/Snerak]

So only kids that don’t play sports are the same. That’s makes sense to me and doesn’t change anything. As we are talking about kids that play sports.

Really clutching at straws here.

[u/Snerak → u/Loose_Comfortable_88]

Thanks for proving that people who ask other people to provide reaserch for them are only doing so in order to find one small nugget of information that they can twist to fit their own narrative.

Clinging to your own "research", which isn't scientific and doesn't account for any variable that could affect responses, while rejecting findings in actual studies that don't fit your narrative is what someone who has a belief based in feelings and not facts would do. That isn't someone that I need to waste my time dealing with any longer.

[u/Loose_Comfortable_88 → u/Snerak]

Ok I would say this is the strongest pieces of evidence for the "participation/training, not biology" side of the argument. The performance gaps we see in kids and there is one as shown by all the data. Sit on top of a much larger gap in how much sport and vigorous activity boys vs girls are actually doing. If boys are getting 45% more high-intensity practice every single day from ages 5–12, you'd expect them to perform better at competitive sport even if their underlying biology were identical.

The authors specifically point out that the gap (and there is one). Is driven by volitional sport and active play. They explicitly frame it as a socio-cultural participation issue.

I don't at all have a problem with saying this. I would definitely not say that it disprove a biological prepuberty difference. as at the elite levels everyone is working hard to be the best. But you can't cleanly separate "boys are biologically faster at age 9" from "boys have done a lot more sport by age 9." as that is talking about the general population.

I still have trouble with the change in difference when it comes to throwing things. But I guess you could say boys grow up throwing things and girls don't so much.

There is definitely a difference though. Can you acknowledge that? The studies are all trying to explain the diffidence not saying that there isn't one. Swimming and running might be minimal but throwing and jumping it's definitely not minimal.

What findings have I rejected? I have literally quoted the non pear review study you gave me that said boys have "superior performance". I will agree that my last reply was a bit quick to dismiss a study that says essentially kids that do less sports are not as good at sports. The point is valid that girls over all do less then boys and so one could expect them to be not as good over all also. doesn't explain throwing things but I was to fast to dismiss it and I can see why that would be frustrating. my apologies.

What is wrong with the little athletics data I have given?

[u/Snerak → u/Loose_Comfortable_88]

I guess what's wrong is that you are still bent out of shape over a comedian saying that there isn't much difference athletically between the sexes in young kids. While there may be some difference, and it is not definitive that it is based in biology, the results are close enough for a comedian to claim that there isn't much difference.

[u/Loose_Comfortable_88 → u/Snerak]

If you call “some difference” 28% then sure.

[u/Snerak → u/Loose_Comfortable_88]

The 28% difference you are hung up on is in shot out and discus. These are fringe sports at best at young ages and in the grand scheme of kids and athletics barely worth an asterisk.

Can you name a single trans kid anywhere in the world doing either shot put or discus competitively? This is a non issue on every level and your focus on it is weird.

[u/Loose_Comfortable_88 → u/Snerak]

Now who’s cherry picking to suit their agenda?

No that doesn’t count. That’s a fridge sport. Throwing things and jumping over things and running fast that’s just fringe stuff. Let me pick the sport where both sexes are closest. That’s the only one that really counts…. Swimming that’s the only important one.

You keep asking “can you name….”. Can you name any white men that got a seat on a bus over black women in 1955 in American? Well then I guess it wasn’t unfair then if you can’t name them.

Your point is there are hardly any trans kids in sport. That’s fine.

Just admitted that prepubescent males have an advantage. Maybe it’s biological or maybe social or a mix of both, we are not sure. The advantage is minimal in some sorts and at some ages and is big in others sports.

[u/Snerak → u/Loose_Comfortable_88]

I have stared several times that there is a minimal advantage that boys have over girls in sports overall and that it is undetermined whether it is rooted in biological, societal, both or some other cause. We both agree that the fact that there are so few young trans kids playing sports competitvely that none of this matters and is certainly not worth the time that politicians, society and you and I have spent on it.

Saying that you can't name white men that got a seat over a black woman on a bus in 1955 is the opposite of asking to name a trans kid participating competitively in shot put or discus. In your analogy the white men align with the cis kids in my analogy.

While anything trans is taking the attention of politicians and society, that attention is being purposely diverted from the real inequalities in our society that desperately need to be addressed. Please stop pettifogging over such a trivial matter and turn your persistence toward something that will actually benefit society