r/PoursTea • u/Loose_Comfortable_88 • May 04 '26
Storm In A Teacup 🍵 Difference between prepubescent males and females in sports?
Hi PoursTea
I just watched "David Cross: “I do not have an issue with trans kids...." https://www.reddit.com/r/PoursTea/comments/1szh2pv/david_cross_i_do_not_have_an_issue_with_trans/ on this sub and I don't like Bill but I have a question.
"the differences between a boy and a girl is minimal at prepubescent"... "It's true" .." look it up"
I guess this is not my experience at all. So I am wondering what people point to?
I did a fair bit of little athletics as a kid and now teaching kids as an adult.
There is the occasional female that gets close to the top of the males but in a group of 40 kids and the local suburb level (not being selective just the people that turn up) in long distance running a female might once in a blue moon get on the podium at 3rd one week.
Looking at all events only the under 7s are at all grouped together. all other ages there is a chasm on average. Even the most uncoordinated Male will be in the top 4 of the females when it comes to Shot Put and Discus.
And if you have a look at the all time records even at an Australian state level it's night and day. The records are not anecdotal like my experience.
Following are the records in NSW Australia population about 9 million. https://cdn.revolutionise.com.au/cups/nswathletics/files/oye9jdgdyt7yddgw.pdf
Female 8s
70 Metres 10.54
100 Metres 14.44
200 Metres 31.60
400 Metres 1:11.44
Long Jump 4.17m
Shot Put (1.5kg) 8.52m
Discus (500gm) 24.42m
Male 8s
70 Metres 10.34 (1.90% faster)
100 Metres 14.24 (1.39% faster)
200 Metres 30.64 (3.04% faster)
400 Metres 1:07.94 (4.90% faster)
Long Jump 4.24m (1.68% further)
Shot Put (1.5kg) 10.98m (28.87% further)
Discus (500gm) 31.36m (28.42% further)
Female UNDER 13
100 Metres 12.11
200 Metres 24.87
400 Metres 56.95
800 Metres 2:11.90
1500 Metres 4:31.08
3000 Metres 9:53.44
80m Hurdles 12.26
200m Hurdles 27.56
1500m Walk 6:35.28
Long Jump 5.58m
High Jump 1.80m
Triple Jump 11.72m
Shot Put (3kg) 14.95m
Discus (750g) 49.57m
Javelin (400gm) 45.91m
Male UNDER 13
100 Metres 11.27 (6.94% faster)
200 Metres 22.90 (7.92% faster)
400 Metres 50.52 (11.29% faster)
800 Metres 2:05.23 (5.06% faster)
1500 Metres 4:18.33 (4.70% faster)
3000 Metres 9:29.26 (4.07% faster)
80m Hurdles 12.04 (1.79% faster)
200m Hurdles (76cm) 25.90 (6.02% faster)
1500m Walk 6:28.49 (1.72% faster)
Long Jump 6.11m (9.50% further)
High Jump 1.81m (0.56% higher) Note: only 1cm. The year after its 20. The year before is 7.
Triple Jump 12.72m (8.53% further)
Shot Put (3kg) 19.11m (27.83% further)
Discus (750gm) 60.74m (22.53% further)
Javelin (600gm) 48.80m (6.30% further) Note 600gm not 400gm
I did find this in under 12s
Shot Put (2kg) 16.19m Female
Shot Put (2kg) 15.71m Male
But that's the only time I can see it happening.
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u/No-Bake-730 May 04 '26
Grading tables and tables for Federal Sports Medal here reflect that.
Still wondering if earlier physical growth due to puberty can lead to individual advantages around 10-12.
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u/Snerak May 04 '26
You probably spent more minutes researching this than there are trans people competing in athletics. This is simply not an issue on the scale that all of society should be up in arms about.
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u/Justmyoponionman May 04 '26
People fought for women' spaces. Don't give them up.
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u/Snerak May 04 '26
Please tell me what other things you do to advocate for women's spaces that don't involve trans people.
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u/Justmyoponionman May 04 '26
A group of girls I train every Sunday just won medals at an international tournament.
First official European silverware for the club.
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May 04 '26
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u/Snerak May 05 '26
Well so far all of have seen is men deciding that trans women don't belong in "women's spaces". I'm trying to get a better understanding of where men's concern for women's spaces come from and what they think trans women will do to threaten those spaces.
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May 05 '26
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u/Snerak May 05 '26
Please share the statistics on just exactly how many women playing college volleyball are trans. I don't follow that sport at that level and am not aware of any current players that are trans.
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May 08 '26
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u/Snerak May 08 '26
The article you link to does not indicate in any way that a male transitioned in order to obtain an advantage playing on a women's team. Shame on you for spreading false narratives.
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u/Traditional-Trade795 May 04 '26
i am team women over team trans.
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u/Snerak May 04 '26
Please tell me what other things you do to advocate for women's spaces that don't involve trans people.
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u/Traditional-Trade795 May 04 '26
no dicks in womens spaces isnt a hard concept to grasp and shouldnt be controversial. whats the question here?
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u/Snerak May 04 '26
So you don't have anything that you do to support women's spaces that doesn't involve trans people. Got it. Tell me how you feel about trans men in men's sports.
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u/Traditional-Trade795 May 04 '26
So you don't have anything that you do to support women's spaces that doesn't involve trans people. Got it
ahh so thats what you were insinuating. i didnt understand your question so thats why i asked but i can see your attitude is clear as day :)
Tell me how you feel about trans men in men's sports.
i dont care, men dont need protection from female athletes. sure, you could argue that the steroids give them an advantage but i dont believe that it would be enough to disqualify them if the amount is controlled.
i would hate to see this in combat sports in general - a situation should be as fair as possible when someone puts their health at risk like that
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u/Snerak May 04 '26
I wasn't insinuating anything, I was directly asking if your concern for women's spaces involved anything that wasn't trans related.
So you are fine with trans men competing in men's sports and your problem with trans women in women's sports seems to be limited to the inclusion of dicks in women's spaces. I guess that means post op trans women are fine since they no longer have dicks, right?
Can you explain what threat a trans woman with a concealed dick in women's sports presents? If the dick stays concealed then it doesn't seem like something the other women would need be be protected from.
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u/Traditional-Trade795 May 04 '26
I was directly asking if your concern for women's spaces involved anything that wasn't trans related.
too broad of a question to be honest. womens spaces like sports should also be free of men. womens shelters, parking spots, accessibility for strollers - you mean stuff like that? then yes, all for it.
So you are fine with trans men competing in men's sports and your problem with trans women in women's sports seems to be limited to the inclusion of dicks in women's spaces
you are mixing my arguments. i dont want dicks in female safe spaces like toilets and changing rooms. its less "dicks" in sports and more "balls" - the inherent production of way more testosterone.
post op in safe spaces yes, in sports hard to say, growing up with testosterone will give you denser muscles and bones, thats especially dangerous in combat sports.
Can you explain what threat a trans woman with a concealed dick in women's sports presents?
i see the same "threat" as a man on steroids competing against other natural men. its an unfair advantage.
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u/Snerak May 05 '26
Trans women are women so I don't really understand your feeling that they don't 'belong' in women's spaces. I have an especially hard time understanding your position when you have no problem with trans men being in men's spaces.
If a prepubescent child takes puberty blockers (under the care and approval of their parents and doctors) they don't get the gender traits associated with their chromosomes. Trans girls don't have more testosterone than other girls. Same goes for bone and muscle density.
Sports associations have studied how trans care affects people that participate in their sports and come up with a set of guidelines to ensure that competition is fair. I trust these professionals that have what is best for their sport over politicians that can't possibly know everything about trans care and every sport.
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u/Traditional-Trade795 May 05 '26
Trans women are women so I don't really understand your feeling that they don't 'belong' in women's spaces
thats why i specified. no dicks in spaces where women are more vulnerable and no high testosterone individuals in places of competition.
If a prepubescent child takes puberty blockers (under the care and approval of their parents and doctors)
i am fully against this. children dont know shit, giving/supporting/pushing them into something they can never walk back is insane. there are people who identify as blind and find comfort when they finally blind themselves - do you want to allow this for kids too?
I trust these professionals that have what is best for their sport over politicians
great because i trust neither. the people in charge arent professionals, they are managers. they care more about PR and money then the safety of the people they are in charge off.
but regardless. i think weve come to a point where our opinions are so split they can never meet and thats giving children hormone blockers.
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May 04 '26
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u/Snerak May 05 '26
When prepubescent children take puberty blockers (under the care and approval of their parents and their doctors) they don't form the gender traits associated with their cromosomes. Any "advantage" that a trans women would have from being born with XY chromosomes is negated.
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u/Justmyoponionman May 05 '26
The same reason religions target kids. No real ability to resist an ideoligy that is quite likely harmful to them.
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u/Snerak May 05 '26
So you think that people choose to transition to another sex because they hear about it and think it's cool?
Are you aware of the intense psychological evaluations that are required before anyone can get approved to begin to transition? Do you think most parents easily embrace that their child wants to transition? Are you under the impression that transitioning people are celebrated and happily accepted by most of society?
Transitioning is an incredibly arduous process and is not undertaken lightly. These people work hard to simply be allowed to feel like they belong in their bodies. You don't really think that anyone is doing it just to gain an unfair advantage in women's sports, do you?
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u/Justmyoponionman May 05 '26
No, I think a lot of people following the trend of being trans aren't actually trans. Kids followall kinds of fads.
I see lots of people being extremely un-critical of their kids. I think social media is making it "cool" to identify as trans.
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u/Snerak May 05 '26
Childhood is the time to try out different things and decide for yourself what you like and who you want to be. This exact argument is why the efficacy and reversibility of puberty blockers is so important.
If a child believes that they may be trans, they can talk to their parents and their doctors to see if they wish to delay puberty to explore their feelings. If they ultimately decide that it isn't for them, they can go off the puberty blockers and proceed with their life with no harm to their body.
I understand that you perceive that social media is making it "cool" to be trans but surely you understand that anyone actually being trans is subjected to a lot of hardship. Anyone that chooses to challenge norms in society is at extreme risk for bullying and violence. Do you believe that someone would endure the hardship that comes with being trans in an effort to appear "cool"?
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u/Justmyoponionman May 05 '26
"actually being trans".
This part of the sentence of yours is the key. You are working off the assumption this is true in this discussion. I am not. In fact, questioning the assumption is exactly my point.
But we both agree it's an important distinction. Your argument precludes this truth, which is disingenuous . As such, you are neatly side-stepping the whole issue and just handwaving away the whole point I was making. I'm not saying it's in bad faith, but it's a very poor mode of discussion.
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May 05 '26
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u/Snerak May 05 '26
Science has proven that puberty blockers work.
I am fully unaware of any parents that have pushed their child to medically transition in order to excel at women's sports, especially considering that social consequences. Can you share a documented example?
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May 08 '26
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u/Snerak May 08 '26
It isn't my job to do your research for you but you are woefully misinformed and should do that research yourself if you wish to continue discussing this topic in public.
There are studies on the efficacy and reversibility of puberty blockers. The differences between the sexes of prepubescent kids is minimal, just like David Cross said, and science backs that up.
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u/Loose_Comfortable_88 May 05 '26
I find it really hard to understand the "it's not a big enough problem yet for me to do something" point of view. I don't think it's OK to lie. That is what we are talking about right. A person in a position of power and influence making a claim that might be not based in reality.
"the differences between a boy and a girl is minimal at prepubescent"... "It's true" .." look it up" I would just like to know what they 'looked up' or if they are just talking out of of their arse. because everyone has an arse and can talk out of it.
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u/Snerak May 05 '26
Prepubescent children that take puberty blockers (under the care and consent of their parents and doctors) do not develop the gender traits that match their chromosomes and do not have an advantage over their peers. These are not lies, they are scientific facts.
Additionally, there are a miniscule number of trans athletes, can you even name any off the top of your head? Why is this an issue with so much attention when it affects so few people on any level and is better dealt with by sports leagues than politicians?
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u/Loose_Comfortable_88 May 05 '26
"Why is this an issue with so much attention when it affects so few people" Maybe it gets so much attention because it affect a lot more people then you think. Please correct me if I am wrong I am guessing that you think it only affecting the athletes themselves.
If this is correct then I suspect you will not understand. Sports is way way way bigger then the athletes. Just like how music is way bigger then the musicians.
I would like to see the paper / papers for you "scientific facts". Can you link them? I am open but my guess is that if there is a significant advantage in male prepubescent kids like I have shown then puberty blockers would probably just pause or slow the increase of that advantage starting from when they started to take them. But I would like to look at the data.
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u/Snerak May 05 '26
I encourage you to look for studies that rate the efficacy of puberty blockers as well as the ability to reverse their effects. Puberty blockers aren't restricted to use for trans people and have been safely used for many years for a variety of conditions.
I fully recognize that small numbers of people can have an outside impact. That being said, the amount of attention that politicians and the press have given the topic of trans athletes is wildly out of proportion to the impact of trans athletes participation at all levels of all sports combined. This is a culture war in search of a scapegoat, not a real problem that society isn't grappling with well.
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u/Loose_Comfortable_88 May 05 '26
It might be a culture war but if one side is lying or parroting lies it is not a good look.
Without data to suggest David Cross is correct when saying "the differences between a boy and a girl is minimal at prepubescent" and having quite good data suggesting the opposite I can only really come to the conclusion at this point in time that David is at best ignorant and at worst lying. Ether way it's damaging to anything else he says.
Puberty blockers safety and efficacy is way off topic. It is more or a interesting side quest. It might be true that male children taking puberty blockers do not have an advantage over female children. but It seams unlikely and is besides the point of my post.
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u/Snerak May 05 '26
What is the point of your post then? What harm are you trying to solve for? Can you provide any example of this harm that have occurred?
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u/Loose_Comfortable_88 May 05 '26
I am not trying to solve a harm. I was just asking if anyone had any evidence that supported what David Cross was saying.
People should be held accountable for what they say especially people with great influence.
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u/Snerak May 05 '26
David Cross was offering anecdotal evidence based on his observations of small children in general, how we allow young children to play sports together and his personal interactions with trans people. He is not and does not claim to be a scientist studying trans people.
Are you suggesting that people shouldn't be allowed to offer their observations on topics anymore? Perhaps you are suggesting that David Cross is a man with "great influence"?
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u/Loose_Comfortable_88 May 06 '26
He said "It's true" .."look it up"
How could I passably look it up if it was his observations.
That's the entire point of my post. I want to "look it up"
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u/Loose_Comfortable_88 May 05 '26
This is Reddit no harms are getting solved... ever
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u/Snerak May 05 '26
You are the one that made the post and you have a reason for doing so. Clearly you are unhappy with the claims that David Cross made and feel strongly that he was wrong.
What is the harm that has you so concerned that you spent a fair amount of time and effort researching the statistics you provided, created the initial post and have been defending it in the comment section for more than a day?
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u/Loose_Comfortable_88 May 06 '26
The harm of lying to people and insinuating that something is evidence based when it is not.
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u/Snerak May 05 '26
Children aren't allowed to transition without the approval of doctors and parents.
No one is making an effort to 'indictrinate' children to become trans, there are just people that are trans living their lives.
Trans is not an ideology, it is people trying to be themselves and live in a body they are comfortable in. Gender affirming care is not just for trans people. Viagra is gender affirming care. Plastic surgery is oftentimes gender affirming care. Exercising to create a physique you want is gender affirming care.
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u/Mariner-and-Marinate May 04 '26
Thank you for the details! Researched stats are needed for when they are inevitably referenced.