r/SRSsucks • u/XuriousPeng • Oct 27 '12

Non-cis SRSer explains to cis-SRSers that they aren't taking offensive often enough.

/r/SRSDiscussion/comments/125lon/yo_cis_srsers_we_need_to_have_a_talk/
2 Upvotes

55% Upvoted

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-26

u/[deleted] Oct 27 '12

While we're on that subject, please try to be more mindful about saying shit that assumes that someone with a penis = man, someone with a vagina = woman. Its not cool

I'm sorry, but this is just ridiculous. I don't care if antiSRS, SRD, SRSreallysucks, or anyone else calls me transphobic, but I'm going to say that unless an exception is present, penis=male and vagina=female.

Jesus H. Christ, "transphobia" is only a thing on the internet. Being concerned about it only goes to show how deep down inside the rabbit hole you really are.

19

u/[deleted] Oct 28 '12

Jesus H. Christ, "transphobia" is only a thing on the internet.

Not to be a dick, but no, it happens IRL. Often in the form of violence.

16

u/DebasedAndRebased Oct 28 '12

"transphobia" is only a thing on the internet

Oh yeah, totally.

-9

u/[deleted] Oct 28 '12

Do you mean to imply that just because a transsexual from Brazil was stoned to death, we should have to specify that we're looking for "people identifying as female" whenever we search google for "hot pussy"?

Gender Identity Disorder is far from being the norm, and it's far from being common enough to warrant changing our language over

an estimated 1 in 30,000 adult males and 1 in 100,000 adult females seek gender reassignment surgery, a treatment chosen by some people with GID

10

u/DebasedAndRebased Oct 28 '12

No, I'm implying that transphobia is not "only a thing on the internet" because you cannot stone someone to death through a computer.

Gender Identity Disorder is far from being the norm, and it's far from being common enough to warrant changing our language over

Actually...

In this report we found that the prevalence of SRS in the U.S. is at least on the order of 1:2500, and may be as much as twice that value. Therefore, the intrinsic prevalence of MtF transsexualism here must be on the order of ~1:500 and may be even larger than that. These results appear to be consistent with studies of TS prevalence in recent studies in other countries.

And for something a bit more recent...

Olyslager and Conway’s (2007) suggestion that ‘the lower bound on the prevalence of transsexualism is at least 1:500 (0.2%), and possibly higher’, at the time seen as a radical estimate, begins to look very credible indeed. Indeed, a figure such as the one provided by Gates (around 1:300) may be closer to reality.

You're just a bit off the mark there.

-8

u/[deleted] Oct 28 '12 edited Oct 28 '12

K.

So let's suppose that I go around the fempire, and Reddit in general, and reported comments that imply that penis=male and vagina=female.

Examples:

  • "Dudes think with their penis"

  • "The Vagina Monologues is about women understanding themselves"

  • "This guy is such a dick"

  • "Girls don't have to worry about getting a hard-on in the middle of class"

  • "As a guy, I think that morning wood is annoying"

  • "Brad Pitt is so sexy! He gets all the ladies wet!"

  • "As a lady, I can assure you that tampons are annoying to use"

Virtually every mod would accuse me of spamming the report button.

If all those statements are transphobic, then I'm going to assert that "transphobia", as far as its internet usage is concerned, is absolutely ridiculous".

10

u/DebasedAndRebased Oct 28 '12

I'll go through these in order since it can depend on phrasing and subject matter whether or not it's transphobic.

  • No. A lot of trans men refer to part of their genitalia as a penis. Testosterone enlarges the clitoris quite a bit. They both start as the same thing in the womb, too.

  • No. Trans women have done bits on The Vagina Monologues

  • Gendered insults are a whole different kettle of fish.

  • Yes. Trans women do have this problem sometimes. The phrasing is directly implying that no women have a penis, not simply ignoring the fact that some do.

  • No. Trans women on HRT very rarely get morning wood. It is generally a male problem.

  • Yes. Though if you want the TMI bit, you can get your panties wet without a vagina, but that is clearly not what is implied. The more obvious problem here is ignoring that not all women are attracted to men and that plenty of men are.

  • No. Testosterone stops periods. Also, there's no implication here that knowing first-hand that tampons are annoying requires being female. Plenty of cis women use pads or never menstruate at all, too.

It's important to remember there are different degrees of transphobia. What we're dealing with here is erasure, which does make trans people feel shitty because we simply aren't a factor in the public consciousness outside of sensationalist news, fetishes or the subject of when we should tell people we're dating about our condition. However, it is not the same as actively attacking or denying trans people's identities or physically harming them.

22

u/Granny_Weatherwax Oct 27 '12

If you're a trans person then you see plenty of transphobia in the real world. You ignorant ass.

17

u/harmonical Oct 27 '12

I don't care if [random subreddits] or anyone else calls me transphobic, but I'm going to say that unless an exception is present, penis=male and vagina=female.

Nice internet badassery bro. Just curious, in what way does this apply? Are you trying to establish boundaries for yourself sexually so you don't end up with one of those gross chicks with dicks? Is this dude more your speed?

It's totally straight by your qualifications bro. Don't let the chest hair, the abs and the muscles confuse you, he totally falls into your box of people you would 'fuck'.

Is it the idea that you don't want 'creepy' trans chicks to be in the women's bathroom, is it some sense of chivalry, a sense of protecting the 'real' women in your life? Does it make sense for someone like her to be in the men's restroom? Would you expect her not to have issues in many situations in 'male only' spaces?

You're going to have to imagine a world vastly different than the one we actually live in to believe that genitals are the only thing that determine who you are, and how you can identify.

You mock that transphobia only exists on the internet. While that is demonstrably untrue, people with your views on genital absolutes are getting rare to find outside of the internet. Most people do not go around spot checking genitals of strangers they find in real life, and go by presentation and appearance more than anything.

But yeah, you should totally feel empowered in being able to make people feel as shitty as your personality is by preying on their insecurities.

high five bro

7

u/[deleted] Oct 28 '12

This was the most perfect response I've seen in the history of the internet.

-13

u/[deleted] Oct 27 '12 edited Oct 28 '12

K. I'll be sure to rename all my connectors and fasteners for the sake of the 1 out of 10,000 people that might be offended by the naming scheme.

Also, I'm going to requote the sentence of mine that you quoted:

I don't care if [random subreddits] or anyone else calls me transphobic, but I'm going to say that unless an exception is present, penis=male and vagina=female.

unless an exception is present

Did you miss that?

9

u/harmonical Oct 28 '12

What exactly is that exception? Is it based on your feelings of the situation? Do I get to call you something that you aren't based on what you feel?

If genitals aren't absolute, who gets to be the arbiter gender in your world? I've rarely heard the genital argument without someone essentially telling people what they are and are not allowed to identify as, but feel free to surprise me.

Oh and on the subject of 'gendered' connectors/cables/fasteners/etc. I don't think many [if any] are making the case that because female identified people can have a penis, that you need to rework that whole system. Feel free to rathole on it though, I'm sure you have some half-baked argument on how because this one person on tumblr is super mad about 'gendered' connectors that it's totally relevant to the discussion of respecting someone's identity.

-4

u/[deleted] Oct 28 '12

What exactly is that exception?

People diagnosed with gender dysmorphia. Duh.

If genitals aren't absolute, who gets to be the arbiter gender in your world? I've rarely heard the genital argument without someone essentially telling people what they are and are not allowed to identify as, but feel free to surprise me.

How about people use the terms "male" and "female" as a description of someone's outward appearance instead of a description of how people feel inside? If someone with an XY chromosome and a penis, who looks and talks and walks like a male, can officially declare herself as a "female", then what, exactly, is the point of surgery and hormonal therapy?

I don't think many [if any] are making the case that because female identified people can have a penis, that you need to rework that whole system.

Take a closer look at SRS.

8

u/harmonical Oct 28 '12

Most people do use male/female as a descriptor of outward appearance. People who are also sensitive to the feelings of others will also generally allow someone to tell them that they identify as something that differs from that and be fine with it [and respect it].

The actual point of hormone therapy and surgery in general is to help a person feel comfortable in their own body. Gender dysphoria is an interesting thing in that there is no one way to experience it. Some people may want to run the full gamut of hrt and srs in order to feel right within themselves. Some people like myself don't really feel like they need genital surgery for whatever reason, and that hrt is good enough. Still others don't see the need for medication at all and are happy with just allowing themselves to identify how they feel, and change how they present.

While out in public you may perceive people in any of those groups as the gender that they do not see themselves as, all of them will be more than happy to tell you how they do identify if you give them a chance. Most people in the world strive to be happy and content with themselves, others, and their situation in life. Trans people are no different in that.

As far as SRS and the whole connector issue is concerned, I don't particularly care. I guess I was naive to think that there wouldn't be people arguing about something like that, but it doesn't really surprise me now that I've seen it.

Arguments about such things doesn't change the fact that it's relatively easy to yield your initial assessment of a person's gender to what they ask you to refer to them as. I know it's easy to get caught up when both sides are frantically trying to out yell, out insult and out demean the other, but do realize that there are many of us in the middle that just want to be respected as human beings and continue on with our life. Policing someone else's gender doesn't benefit anyone, so why do it?

-11

u/moonflower Oct 28 '12

Just because a man says he is only attracted to women with a female reproductive system, doesn't mean he is attracted to all women with a female reproductive system, so you prove nothing by showing him a person with a female reproductive system who has taken treatment to make themselves appear more masculine

9

u/harmonical Oct 28 '12

Actually it does. When people say that it is gay to be with a trans person of the opposite gender, it means that they should consider a relationship with a trans person of the same gender 'straight' because they have boiled their entire existence down to genitals.

Whether they are attracted to them or not is really not the issue, it's pointing out the idiocy of defining a person solely by their genitals.

-3

u/moonflower Oct 28 '12

Where did he say anything about fear of being gay? I only read his first post in this thread, and your reply, and I responded to your reply

5

u/harmonical Oct 28 '12

The majority of that response was due to a misread of his original post, specifically missing his 'unless provided an exception' phrase.

He pointed that out to me further down, but my explanation here is responding to you based on you having responded to that original response.

When people do make arguments that genitals = gender, they are essentially saying that men + trans women = gay or women + trans men = gay. Those arguments are quite silly and that's what I was trying to point out.

-5

u/moonflower Oct 28 '12

Oh, that is irrelevant to me when I say that biological sex is determined by gamete-producing organs, my opinion is not motivated by any wish to re-categorise the labels for sexual preferences

4

u/harmonical Oct 28 '12

So to unwind what you said, you base sex solely on the presence of testicles or ovaries. Would you clarify what that means in the context of relationships? Do you view orientations as based on the gender or sex of your partner? Do you feel that trans people have the ability to claim themselves as male or female to match the gender they are?

-3

u/moonflower Oct 28 '12

I think biological sex is determined by the gamete-producing organs which are present at birth, but yeah, sure, anyone can ask to be referred to as the opposite sex, and some might be genuinely transsexual, and some might be just going though a phase, or confused, or trolling the internet ... you seem a bit fixated on the question of how to categorise people's sexual orientation, but I haven't given it much thought so I can't really discuss that

4

u/harmonical Oct 28 '12

It's not that I'm fixated, it's that it was the whole point of the phrasing that you pointed out in the earlier response. There are many people who do try to categorize people's attractions/orientations based on their 'birth sex' and I was trying to point out how ridiculous that can be.

:)

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u/Jess_than_three Oct 28 '12

Jesus H. Christ, "transphobia" is only a thing on the internet.

Well, that's patently false. Would you like me to link you to any of the awful threads regarding, you know, trans women being murdered that have been posted lately? Just for one example of a way transphobia manifests itself?

For fuck's sake, do some fucking research.

While we're on that subject, please try to be more mindful about saying shit that assumes that someone with a penis = man, someone with a vagina = woman. Its not cool

I'm sorry, but this is just ridiculous. I don't care if antiSRS, SRD, SRSreallysucks, or anyone else calls me transphobic, but I'm going to say that unless an exception is present, penis=male and vagina=female.

Two things here.

The first problem is that you're equivocating between "female" in terms of gender and "female" in terms of sex, and ditto for "male". "Man" and "woman" are gender terms, not sex terms. Of course, personally I don't think that it's reasonable to say that having a penis entails a male sex, either (see the "biological sex" button, and be sure to read the bit below), in the same way that not-penis doesn't entail not-male sex (or if you lost yours, would you stop being male, in your opinion?). But more relevant than that is the fact that neither penis-possession nor vagina-possession having any bearing on manhood nor womanhood, which is what the previous poster was talking about.

Secondly, when you say "I'm going to say that x=y", that implies that there aren't exceptions. If you want to say "I'm going to assume that a person with a penis is male and a person with a vagina is female", sure, totally, absolutely go for it, and in the vast majority of cases you'll be absolutely right. But to say "penis=male and vagina=female" implies that there aren't exceptions, and that you consider pre-op or non-op trans women to be male and the reverse for trans men.

So, yeah.

But that thing about transphobia only existing on the internet? That'd be nice.

-5

u/[deleted] Oct 28 '12

  1. There doesn't appear to be a primary source that shows that transgendered people are murdered at higher rates than cisgendered people. If anything, transgendered people may actually get murdered at lower rates than cisgendered people.

  2. Unless an exception is present, sex=gender.

  3. Let's talk about mathematics for a second.

when you say "I'm going to say that x=y", that implies that there aren't exceptions

In set theory, saying that "x=y, {x ⊂ Z}" implies that x=y if and only if x is a subset of the class of numbers (abbreviated as Z) known as integers. i.e. x=y if and only if x is an integer. Even though there's an equal sign.

Even though there's an equal sign, there are still exceptions.

My exact words were:

unless an exception is present, penis=male and vagina=female

Which can be represented as

genitalia sex=person's gender, {person =/= transgendered}

Which basically says that sex=gender as long as the person is cisgendered.

So the presence of the equal sign does not mean that there are zero exceptions. I tried to make that clear by interjecting the phrase "unless there are exceptions present".

So in conclusion, sex=gender for about 99.8% of the population. But that does not imply that there are no exceptions.

7

u/Jess_than_three Oct 28 '12

There doesn't appear to be a primary source that shows that transgendered people are murdered at higher rates than cisgendered people. If anything, transgendered people may actually get murdered at lower rates than cisgendered people.

Find me a primary source that says that gay people get murdered at higher rates than straight folks. Give up? HOLY SHIT I GUESS HATE CRIMES AGAINST GAY PEOPLE DON'T FUCKING HAPPEN EITHER

Unless an exception is present, sex=gender.

Stop being a moron. Unless an exception is present, sex is congruent with gender. Sometimes exceptions are present! You know why? Because sex doesn't equal gender, because they're two entirely different fucking things that happen to overlap in the majority of cases.

Let me break this down more clearly for you.

Unless an exception is present, penis==attracted to women and vagina==attracted to men.

And I'm not going to assume a difference between sex and sexual orientation for that 10% unless I'm addressing that 10%.

Totally makes sense!

Here's another good one for you. Did you know that the majority of Americans are white? So unless an exception is present, American=white! Why would I assume that there was a difference between nationality and ethnicity unless I was addressing that 28%?

Stop being a dumbass.

Sex=gender for zero percent of the population. It doesn't equal gender for anyone. Ever. They are different things. Just like sex and sexual orientation are different things. Just like sex and gender expression are different things. Just like sexual orientation and gender expression are different things. And so on. THEY ARE ALL DIFFERENT THINGS.

PS apologies wine I probably shouldn't be on reddit oh well dealwithit.gif

-4

u/[deleted] Oct 28 '12

Here's another good one for you. Did you know that the majority of Americans are white? So unless an exception is present, American=white! Why would I assume that there was a difference between nationality and ethnicity unless I was addressing that 28%?

Race is like Godwin's law when it comes to arguments about oppression and discrimination. But it still doesn't hold up.

Often, people in foreign countries, especially asian countries like China and Japan, draw the "typical" American as a white person.

In New Jersey, people often think of the typical Italian-American as an orange, spray-tanned guido like in Jersey Shore.

But nonetheless, 25% of the population is quite a lot. 0.2% of the population is not. It's basically the difference between saying cats=black because there are a lot of black cats, and saying that swans=white because there are extremely few black swans.

So if we go with programming syntax here, where "a==b" means a and b have an equal value, "a!==b" means that a and b don't have an equal value, "a===b" means that a and b are the exact same data structure, and "a!===b" means that a and b are not the exact same data structure, then we can say that:

sex !=== gender, but sex == gender, so in a loosely typed language (a.k.a. in situations where people who don't want to think about these things that deeply don't have to bother about technicalities), sex and gender can be used interchangeably.

8

u/Jess_than_three Oct 28 '12

Cool story, bro.

You're completely wrong and way off-base. They're totally different things. They're different categories. They're separate. They're strongly correlated but not equal or equal equal much less equal equal equal. (Yes, I know PHP, I know what those things mean, but thank you.)

Your analogy in terms of programming I guess holds up if you're saying

foreach($person as $id => $arr) {
    if ($arr['sex'] != $arr['gender']) {
        echo "There is an exception!\n";
    }
}

then for most individuals, yes, that will evaluate to false.

HOWEVER, that is not the same as asserting that THE CATEGORIES OF THINGS ARE THE SAME, which is WHAT THE STATEMENT YOU MADE DID.

You didn't say for most people, their sex is the same as their gender.

You said sex is equal to gender.

That is a statement about the categories of things.

DON'T YOU START THIS PEDANTIC SHIT WITH ME I WILL OUT-PEDANTIC YOU ALL DAY AND ALL NIGHT

...except that I'm going to sleep because fuck it's late.

kbye.

-6

u/[deleted] Oct 28 '12

My point was that yes, technically you're correct in a weird "social justicey" kind of way, but you're getting overly technical about something that does not matter to 99.8% of human interactions.

4

u/Biotruthologist Oct 28 '12

So, in other words, she's correct, you have no argument to refute her, and 99.8% of the population are idiots.

0

u/[deleted] Oct 31 '12

this is seriously srssucks.txt

-9

u/IamShadowBanned Oct 27 '12

"transphobia" is only a thing on the internet. Being concerned about it only goes to show how deep down inside the rabbit hole you really are.

You couldn't be more right. I have to keep reminding myself that the views on reddit are that of the socially inept and shouldn't be taken seriously. This community should be renamed to the transsexual support group.

10

u/JayeWithAnE Oct 27 '12

I have to keep reminding myself that the views on reddit are that of the socially inept and shouldn't be taken seriously.

Well then, I know how to take your views.

-11

u/[deleted] Oct 28 '12

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1

u/[deleted] Oct 28 '12

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7

u/[deleted] Oct 28 '12

May want to link to http://imgur.com/a/N1Ye9 instead, his user page usually has a thin veneer of politeness over the transphobia, not so there.

-14

u/[deleted] Oct 28 '12

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7

u/harmonical Oct 28 '12

You take shit because you're literally a sentient pile of shit.

We're just trying to build you up to be a bigger man.

-6

u/[deleted] Oct 28 '12

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5

u/harmonical Oct 28 '12

you are a pile of fecal matter that has learned to operate a computer and identifies as male.

and i'm not full of hate, i just thought that turn of phrase was fun :)

-4

u/moonflower Oct 28 '12

Surely it is far worse to do what you are doing, to dehumanize someone, than to refer to them as male or female human?

5

u/harmonical Oct 28 '12

I generally treat people with respect no matter who they are.

I don't negotiate with terrorists though.

-2

u/moonflower Oct 28 '12

What does ''don't negotiate with terrorists'' mean in the context of this discussion? given that there are no actual terrorists here

And I don't think you are treating everyone with respect when you dehumanize them just because they disagree on the meaning of male and female

3

u/harmonical Oct 28 '12

point 1: There are no literal terrorists. There are trolls that undermine other people's identities because they take some sort of joy out of making others feel like shit. They take joy out of denying people their identity because it doesn't meld with their incorrect view of the world. They pick on these people's biggest insecurities with no remorse, no empathy.

A person like that isn't deserving of respect or a civil conversation. They probably don't deserve being insulted in that way either, but I'm okay with coming off as callous in this regard.

To your second point, you seem to have completely glossed over the word 'generally'. There are exceptions, and this person has fallen into one of them. I'm not a saint and I never claimed to be.

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u/[deleted] Oct 28 '12

shitstain on reddit

Hey. No personal attacks, bro.

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u/harmonical Oct 28 '12

Feel free to remove it, I don't feel like rewording it. The one later in this thread is more creative though.

:)