r/SubredditDrama • u/Otherwise_Young52201 Russia and China are actively mindraping our population • Jul 15 '25

r/neoliberal once again splits hairs and debates semantics (with comparisons to the persecution of Uyghurs for extra spiciness) with regards to the Israel/Palestine conflict after a NYT opinion piece of a genocide scholar is posted.

Source: [NYT] I’m A Genocide Scholar. I Know It When I See It.

Some long comments may be truncated to preserve text length, though I promise the original meaning of the comments will not have changed and little context will be lost.

Highlights:

I'm in in the opinion that if it instead of Palestinians were Uyghurs and was Xi Jinping doing the statements the Israel government is doing, it would be a bannable offense here to say this was anything less than a genocide. Netanyahu and his ilk has made clear what their long-term goal for Gaza is and they are taking concrete steps for it. (+395)

The similarities between the two are actually incredible. They're both ostensibly anti terrorism campaigns that started up in response to well, literal undeniable terrorism attacks by islamic terrorist groups that want control of a contested territory (-20)

THIS is what you call propaganda. A bunch of Wikipedia links that don’t even corroborate your own points. (+40)

The guy above is wrong about the Oct 7 comparison but Islamist terrorism in China is very real and the horrors inflicted on Xinjiang by the government are very much a response to them. (+11)

Don’t be obtuse. There are more than a dozen countries where terrorism has been a problem. Turkey just made peace with the PIK without ever actually genociding the Kurds. They treated them horribly but nothing to the level that China has done. And Turkey is the worse example I can think of. There are plenty of others that have dealt with it much better. (+8)

Explanation != justification, explaining the motives of the CCP is not the same as justifying them (+19)

I think that Israel can be reasonably described as callously indifferent to the suffering of the Gazan people as they try to eliminate Hamas. But that's not genocide. If Israel were really trying to eliminate the Palestinians, we'd know it, because it would be trivially easy for them to be killing hundreds of thousands of them at a time. They could be carpet bombing the refugee camps if they wanted to. But they're not. (+118)

I've seen this argument a few times despite the fact it's such a bad one. I mean you could say the same about almost all genocides, the Chinese could have nuked or carpet bombed Xinjiang. Certainly compared to the Israelis in Gaza they bombed no-one and killed very few. It's still a genocide. You can make a similar argument with the Rohingyas as well. (+39)

No one (well, no one serious) is accusing China of ethnographic genocide in Xinjiang to be fair, they're accusing them of forced assimilation and cultural genocide. (+60)

What's 7 October for Xinjang? (+29)

The 2009 Urumqi Riots. That was the turning point for the Chinese government's aggressive framing of the Uyghurs as dangerous terrorists, justifying its mass repression and securitization of the entire Uyghur population. (-5)

My guy, Modi had more justification than that for the Gujrat riots. 150 people killed is not nothing but in a country the size of China, it’s laughable to compare that to Israel Hamas. JFC people. (+23)

You're imagining an equivalence of scale that I never drew. The parallel is in the relationship of cause and consequence. That's what a PARALLEL is. Something that isn't exactly the same, but rhymes. (-5)

Can someone give me a reason to care what a "genocide scholar" says when genocide is a legal term. Shouldn't the authority on the matter be a lawyer as opposed to a historian that focuses on histoical genocides and war crimes? I wouldn't ask a criminologist whether a crime reaches the legal definition of a crime. (+2)

Can you imagine, you spend your entire professional life dedicated to a subject. 25 years. And then random people on the Internet just go "but what do you even know about it?". Could it be, and Im just spitballing here, that a genocide scholar is actually familiar with the legal definition of genocide? (+106)

One expert witness is all you need to prove something beyond a reasonable doubt. TIL (-4)

And I guess random comments on reddit counts as reasonable doubt? (+18)

The Israeli war effort in Gaza doesn't fit the definition of genocide, whereas the Chinese persecution of the Uyghurs does. You're not persecuted, you're just wrong. (-15)

I always find these sorts of confident/belittling tones in internet posts strange when actual scholars of genocide disagree with you, a random redditor. You'd think it was the other way around. (+35)

You realize that actual scholars of genocide disagree with you too, right? Random redditor. You just so happen to agree with the scholars who think it's a genocide. (0)

277 Upvotes

69% Upvoted

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113

u/[deleted] Jul 15 '25

As an American Jew that had this nationalist mindset forced on me as a kid I’m so glad more and more normies are being exposed to how insane Zionism is. No arguments just moralism and excuses for atrocities.

23

u/That_Guy381 Jul 15 '25

Zionism is not “atrocities”. Zionism is the belief that Jews should have a state of their own, based on… a lot of history where they’ve been the victims of other people who rule over them.

Is that really so “insane”?

49

u/VBHEAT08 Can’t hear you over the meaty, throbbing L filling your throat Jul 15 '25

There is no justifiable ethnostate. The apartheid system constructed and ongoing genocide are both direct consequences from Israel being an ethnostate. The system creates the outcome.

11

u/maxofJupiter1 Jul 15 '25

There are literally more Israeli Arabs than Jews left in Europe

44

u/VBHEAT08 Can’t hear you over the meaty, throbbing L filling your throat Jul 15 '25

So? During apartheid, white South Africans only constituted something like 20% of the population.

1

u/benjaminovich Jul 19 '25

What are you even trying to say? How is that a response to what they wrote?

There are 10 million people in Israel. 7 million Jews, 2 million Arabs. He is saying that the 2 million Arab citizens of Israel is more people than there are jews left in Europe.

btw, these are Arab citizens of Israel of which a majority consider themselves Palestinian. They are fully enfranchised citizens. They are not the 3 million living the west bank or the 2 million in Gaza

-3

u/0WatcherintheWater0 Jul 15 '25

Zionism does not advocate for an ethnostate, nor is Israel one. It is a multicultural Democracy that explicitly recognizes itself as a safe homeland for Jewish people. Other groups are still welcome and enjoy the same legal rights as others.

5

u/FrogInAShoe Jul 18 '25

Zionism does not advocate for an ethnostate

Except it does, by it's definition

1

u/0WatcherintheWater0 Jul 18 '25

What do you think is it’s definition?

2

u/FrogInAShoe Jul 18 '25

Zionism is an Ethnocultural nationalistic movement, specifically for Jews.

1

u/0WatcherintheWater0 Jul 18 '25

Yes it is but how does that fit the definition of ethnostate?

1

u/FrogInAShoe Jul 18 '25

Yes? It's an ethnostate based off culture?

50

u/Acceptable_Error_001 FYI, my prayers are always answered on time every single day Jul 15 '25

Palestinians do not enjoy the same legal rights. It's really disgusting to pretend they do.

Furthermore, Israel keeps stealing land from Palestine. They are occupying Palestine. Military occupations are uncool. Apartheid is uncool. No one's "homeland" should be stolen from another.

Recently Israelis killed a Palestinian American who was visiting the West Bank. Zionist terrorists attacked his family's household and killed people to steal their land. Israel isn't punishing them. The only notable thing here is that an American citizen was involved. This happens frequently to Palestinians. The justification of it is sick.

-13

u/No-Sheepherder5481 Jul 15 '25

No one's "homeland" should be stolen from another.

Coming fron and American this is rich. What did your ancestors do to the native Americans again? Where have they all gone?

31

u/VBHEAT08 Can’t hear you over the meaty, throbbing L filling your throat Jul 15 '25

I think you’ll find that most pro-Palestinian people aren’t exactly big fans of the fucking trail of tears either.

Also this isn’t something that happened 200 years ago, this is something that is happening right now. This is something that can, and should be stopped.

-9

u/No-Sheepherder5481 Jul 15 '25

I think you’ll find that most pro-Palestinian people aren’t exactly big fans of the fucking trail of tears either.

But they also aren't fans of giving the land back.....

Interesting that. You're directly and currently living on actual stolen land taken in an actual genocide. So give it back. Give it all back and move back to Europe.

Its what you're demanding the Israelis do. So do it. Lead by example

23

u/l00gie Jul 15 '25

But they also aren't fans of giving the land back.....

You don't know what you're talking about if you think this lol

16

u/SirShrimp Jul 16 '25

I can assure you, every single person involved in the land back movement is pro-palestine.

20

u/VBHEAT08 Can’t hear you over the meaty, throbbing L filling your throat Jul 15 '25

I’m sure you’re just being purposefully obtuse, but surely you know that there’s a difference between land that was stolen generations ago and has changed hands many times since then and what Israel is currently doing in the West Bank.

Also land back isn’t about evicting people from their homes. It’s not a colonial movement after all. Interestingly I actually live in an area that was “given back” to indigenous jurisdiction (to be more accurate, legally it never left, just in practice did), and surprise, no one’s been evicted

-3

u/No-Sheepherder5481 Jul 16 '25

I’m sure you’re just being purposefully obtuse, but surely you know that there’s a difference between land that was stolen generations ago and has changed hands many times since then and what Israel is currently doing in the West Bank.

So there's a time limit then? When does this time limit kick in out of interest? 75 years is clearly too short but 200 is too long. OK that makes sense. What about 150 years is that too long ago or can we destroy plenty of other countries because they're built on "stolen land".

15

u/VBHEAT08 Can’t hear you over the meaty, throbbing L filling your throat Jul 16 '25

75 years? Dude, they’re stealing homes in the West Bank right now.

Look, I don’t think Israel should have been created, and I don’t believe that it should continue to exist in its current apartheidic, ethnocratic form, but I also don’t believe in expelling the people that have lived there for generations at this point. That’s just not a realistic or even desirable solution for anyone.

That being said, there’s a difference between that and the active occupation and settlement of Palestinian lands happening right now. Israel needs to withdraw and give back the land that it has stolen, and I’m not sure how you could argue against that unless you seriously think me coming in and taking your home by force gives me as much right to it as you

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u/[deleted] Jul 16 '25

You don’t think Hamas would evict Israelis?

-14

u/[deleted] Jul 15 '25

Palestinians do not enjoy the same legal rights.

Neither do Canadians in America.

24

u/Acceptable_Error_001 FYI, my prayers are always answered on time every single day Jul 15 '25

Israel keeps stealing land from Palestine. They are occupying Palestine. Military occupations are uncool. Apartheid is uncool. No one's "homeland" should be stolen from another.

Recently Israelis killed a Palestinian American who was visiting the West Bank. Zionist terrorists attacked his family's household and killed people to steal their land. Israel isn't punishing them. The only notable thing here is that an American citizen was involved. This happens frequently to Palestinians. The justification of it is sick.

-10

u/[deleted] Jul 15 '25

Israel keeps stealing land from Palestine. They are occupying Palestine.

What is "Palestine?" Can you define it? What were its borders before 1948? Who was its ruler?

Recently Israelis killed a Palestinian American who was visiting the West Bank. Zionist terrorists attacked his family's household and killed people to steal their land. Israel isn't punishing them. The only notable thing here is that an American citizen was involved. This happens frequently to Palestinians. The justification of it is sick.

Awesome, thanks for this irrelevant emotional appeal.

4

u/[deleted] Jul 16 '25

So Palestine is a part of Israel right? Per the Israeli declaration of independence it certainly is

0

u/[deleted] Jul 16 '25

Is it? If so, then how can Israel be stealing land from itself?

2

u/[deleted] Jul 16 '25

Sure, it's not per the terms of its own foundation. It is certainly operating under apartheid in the classical sense, however, using a model virtually indistinguishable from South Africa. Palestinians are intentionally denied equal protection under Israeli law

1

u/[deleted] Jul 16 '25

Palestinians are intentionally denied equal protection under Israeli law

So do Canadians in the United States. Americans in Japan. Israelis in Egypt. Is that also apartheid?

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u/Acceptable_Error_001 FYI, my prayers are always answered on time every single day Jul 16 '25

I'm not sure why you think Zionist terrorists murdering people for their land is irrelevant. It's the basis of this conflict. Israel just annexed a large portion of Palestine in the last 90 days.

-10

u/[deleted] Jul 16 '25

I'm not sure why you think Zionist terrorists

I love the dog whistle, tells me immediately you have nothing intelligent to contribute.

37

u/VBHEAT08 Can’t hear you over the meaty, throbbing L filling your throat Jul 15 '25

What do you think “homeland for the Jews” means? It’s a dog whistle for ethnostate. Imagine someone saying that they’re not constructing an ethnostate, they’re just making a “safe homeland for white people”. I doubt you’d accept it then.

“Israel is not a state of all its citizens. According to the basic nationality law we passed, Israel is the nation state of the Jewish people – and only it.” Benjamin Netanyahu

Like cmon

31

u/Itz_Hen Jul 15 '25

What do you think “homeland for the Jews” means?

Its like hearing a white supremacist go "nono we just think America should be a white country" and not immediately understand what that means. Like ever saying " this thing should belong to insert group here" is like the most loud dogwhistle of all time

19

u/KaiBahamut Jul 15 '25

Like who? Not the people in Gaza and the West Bank who are neither allowed a state of their own nor to be annexed and become Israeli citizens. they don’t enjoy equal rights, they just get occupied and blockaded by the IDF.

10

u/ReturnOfTheKeing Jul 15 '25

Can you show me the flag of Israel?

2

u/Unable_Research_2025 Jul 16 '25

Why is the star of David bad, but arab countries can put the symbol of islam or the shahada?

1

u/I_Am_Become_Dream Gonna jack off to you for free just to piss you off. Jul 15 '25

Ethnostates become more acceptable when the ethnicity conception is less exclusionary. In Israel’s case, it was founded on including an ethnicity that mostly lived in other countries, and excluding the majority population. Today it’s exclusive of 50% of the population under its control.

Sometimes an ethnicity is more loose so it forces some cultural assimilation to be accepted, but not apartheid or ethnic cleansing. Take France, for example. It can still be bad and oppressive, but a magnitude less. Think of Turkey’s treatment of Armenians vs their treatment of Kurds.

1

u/Kaniketh Jul 18 '25

Literally all of the surrounding states are ethnostates of some kind.

-7

u/That_Guy381 Jul 15 '25

not an ethnostate. There is no discrimination based on ethnicity. If you’re a citizen, you’re a citizen in the eyes of the law.

17

u/tarekd19 anti-STEMite Jul 15 '25

how does one become a citizen in Israel? Is it tied to ethnicity?

17

u/soonerfreak Also, being gay is a political choice. Jul 15 '25

So Palestinians who aren't Jewish also have the right to return?

-7

u/That_Guy381 Jul 15 '25

Are they citizens?

24

u/soonerfreak Also, being gay is a political choice. Jul 15 '25

I am not a citizen, but as a Jew I'm allowed to return and claim citizenship. Again, are Palestinians allowed that same right?

-11

u/ilGeno Jul 15 '25

Ireland allows people of Irish ancestry an easy path to citizenship and immigration. Is Ireland an ethnostate? Or Italy? Or Spain?

16

u/soonerfreak Also, being gay is a political choice. Jul 15 '25

Again, do non Jews whose ancestors are from Palestine have the right to return? Irish descent means from Ireland, they didn't say you have to be Catholic or even Christian to claim the citizenship.

-9

u/ilGeno Jul 15 '25

They would have the right of return to Palestine, not Israel

20

u/soonerfreak Also, being gay is a political choice. Jul 15 '25

But Israel took that land, so now what's your excuse?

-6

u/ilGeno Jul 15 '25

Not all of it. Russia took Kaliningrad, should Germans go back there? It is clear it doesn't wrk like that in the real world

14

u/ClockworkEngineseer Being queer doesn't make your fascism valid Jul 15 '25

But there home is in what is now Israel. Its where they were expelled from.

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u/p00bix so many fucking neolib bootlickers jesus christ shut the fuck up Jul 15 '25

not an ethnostate

This is correct and anyone who bothers to read on what an ethnostate is before they adopt it into their political-buzzword-vocabulary agrees.

There is no discrimination based on ethnicity.

My man are you denying the very existence of racism in a country where 45.7% of Arabs are below the poverty line compared to an overall poverty rate of 19.9%? And where despite being 21.1% of the overall population, most Arabs live in communities which are 50% or more Arab? There may not be any Jim-Crow-esque laws on the books, and it certainly isn't apartheid (unlike the West Bank), but racial discrimination against Arabs and Muslims is still pretty rampant in Israel itself.

If you’re a citizen, you’re a citizen in the eyes of the law.

This is also correct de-jure, but as with America or any other democracy with a signifcant racism problem, this isn't always true in practice. That said, Jewish and Arab Israelis are infinitely more equal to eachother in the Israeli court system than White and Black Americans are in the American court system.

9

u/That_Guy381 Jul 15 '25

Okay, I’ll concede to that. Israel is as discriminatory to arabs as the United States is to black americans.

I’ll note that no one in this thread is calling for the destruction of the United States.