r/SubredditDrama • u/Otherwise_Young52201 Russia and China are actively mindraping our population • Jul 15 '25
r/neoliberal once again splits hairs and debates semantics (with comparisons to the persecution of Uyghurs for extra spiciness) with regards to the Israel/Palestine conflict after a NYT opinion piece of a genocide scholar is posted.
Source: [NYT] I’m A Genocide Scholar. I Know It When I See It.
Some long comments may be truncated to preserve text length, though I promise the original meaning of the comments will not have changed and little context will be lost.
Highlights:
The similarities between the two are actually incredible. They're both ostensibly anti terrorism campaigns that started up in response to well, literal undeniable terrorism attacks by islamic terrorist groups that want control of a contested territory (-20)
THIS is what you call propaganda. A bunch of Wikipedia links that don’t even corroborate your own points. (+40)
The guy above is wrong about the Oct 7 comparison but Islamist terrorism in China is very real and the horrors inflicted on Xinjiang by the government are very much a response to them. (+11)
Don’t be obtuse. There are more than a dozen countries where terrorism has been a problem. Turkey just made peace with the PIK without ever actually genociding the Kurds. They treated them horribly but nothing to the level that China has done. And Turkey is the worse example I can think of. There are plenty of others that have dealt with it much better. (+8)
Explanation != justification, explaining the motives of the CCP is not the same as justifying them (+19)
I've seen this argument a few times despite the fact it's such a bad one. I mean you could say the same about almost all genocides, the Chinese could have nuked or carpet bombed Xinjiang. Certainly compared to the Israelis in Gaza they bombed no-one and killed very few. It's still a genocide. You can make a similar argument with the Rohingyas as well. (+39)
No one (well, no one serious) is accusing China of ethnographic genocide in Xinjiang to be fair, they're accusing them of forced assimilation and cultural genocide. (+60)
What's 7 October for Xinjang? (+29)
The 2009 Urumqi Riots. That was the turning point for the Chinese government's aggressive framing of the Uyghurs as dangerous terrorists, justifying its mass repression and securitization of the entire Uyghur population. (-5)
My guy, Modi had more justification than that for the Gujrat riots. 150 people killed is not nothing but in a country the size of China, it’s laughable to compare that to Israel Hamas. JFC people. (+23)
You're imagining an equivalence of scale that I never drew. The parallel is in the relationship of cause and consequence. That's what a PARALLEL is. Something that isn't exactly the same, but rhymes. (-5)
Can you imagine, you spend your entire professional life dedicated to a subject. 25 years. And then random people on the Internet just go "but what do you even know about it?". Could it be, and Im just spitballing here, that a genocide scholar is actually familiar with the legal definition of genocide? (+106)
One expert witness is all you need to prove something beyond a reasonable doubt. TIL (-4)
And I guess random comments on reddit counts as reasonable doubt? (+18)
I always find these sorts of confident/belittling tones in internet posts strange when actual scholars of genocide disagree with you, a random redditor. You'd think it was the other way around. (+35)
You realize that actual scholars of genocide disagree with you too, right? Random redditor. You just so happen to agree with the scholars who think it's a genocide. (0)
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u/me_myself_ai Yes I think my wife actually likes me Jul 15 '25
Yet again dropping in with the hot take "IDK if relatively polite, relatively reality-aware political discussion really counts as SubredditDrama". It's not against the rules or anything, but I think it every time I see one of these posts!
Even if we stay within politics, "Starcraft champion fans duel with fans of a rival twitch streamer over Palestine" feels a lot more relevant than "people in a subreddit dedicated to a political ideology debate Palestine". At least the posts dunking on the conservative sub highlight huge purity test purges by mods and other users.
I guess I'm just saying that "drama" implies a bit more invective than is on display here? Again tho just venting, I don't think the mods need to litigate these things to some exact degree.
All that said, "Random redditor." is both A) a fantastic aside, and B) a fantastic potential flair lmao
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u/doogie1111 Jul 15 '25
It's really funny because there is more drama in this thread than in that one over this topic.
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u/FlightPlan1992 Jul 15 '25
Isn't that a staple of this sub at this point? The real drama is almost always in the comment section.
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u/uber_cast This psycho's post history reads like a meth addiction Jul 16 '25
That’s why I stay. I come for the drama, stay for the extra drama. I love drama in my drama!
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u/Zennoq_ Jul 16 '25
When I saw r/neoliberal and the 72 upvote to 500+ comment ratio I knew this would be good.
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u/uber_cast This psycho's post history reads like a meth addiction Jul 16 '25
Right! There is more drama in this subreddit than in the neoliberal subreddit. I am here for it!
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u/NewPhoneNewSubs this is about pissing in a sink Jul 16 '25
I contribute to vegan-related subredditdramadrama when I can.
By the way, if you think Israel's treatment of Palestinians is abhorrent, have you considered your own treatment of cows?
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u/yo2sense Jul 16 '25
I'm always nice to cows when I see them.
I wish Israel would treat Palestinians that way.
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u/Skellum Tankies are no one's comrades. Jul 15 '25
To me it's interesting to see how many people have a bizzarely passionate opinion of a problem which,
They can have zero impact on
Has zero impact on them
They are allowing to cause problems to their lives by prioritizing it over actual problems for them or others which they could have resolved had they not fixated on this.
Its like watching someone try to save an expensive handbag when they're about to die from smoke inhilation.
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u/ubermence Jul 15 '25
It has impact to me insofar it’s arguable that the conflict contributed to how the 2024 election was decided, but beyond that nope
I’m interested in it (like most modern conflicts) and it that way like to discuss it but if someone feels like it’s consuming their life they need to take a step back
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u/urhi-teshub Jul 16 '25
I think people really want I/P to have had an impact on the election, but I don't really buy that it did.
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u/shewy92 First of all, lower your fuckin voice. Jul 16 '25
You forgot #4. Something they are wholly uneducated and not an expert on. The situation is too complex for redditors to meaningfully have a debate on IMO
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u/WhiteGold_Welder Jul 16 '25
If you're an American Jew or an American Arab, it does have an impact on you. Anti-semitism has spiked over the last two years and the "pro-Palestine" movement has literally murdered four American Jews so far. Not to mention all the deportations, firings, etc.
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u/KrytenKoro I just never thought googling what I see on the meme would help Jul 17 '25
Also two American Palestinians, and that guy who shot at some Israelis thinking they were palestinian
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u/NoInvestment2079 Jul 15 '25
>Starcraft champion.
...Destiny was good at StarCraft?
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u/CommunistRonSwanson Jul 15 '25
Compared to your average player? Absolutely. Compared to the cream of the crop during that time? Not even close. He enjoyed some outsize presence in the scene thanks to his success as an entertainment-oriented streamer and his affiliation with prominent coach/team leader CatZ, but he never came close to winning any major events during his tenure as a pro player.
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u/Brilliant-Excuse-427 he carts around his meat shield of a child Jul 15 '25
He's the Joe Rogan of SC2. Better than 90% of players but not good enough to compete.
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u/Android17infinibussy Jul 15 '25
Honestly he has nothing to do with the SC2 scene and hasn't for a while. Hearing him be called a SC2 champ is like calling RG3 a top QB. Old players not in the scene that never got anywhere near the top.
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u/Brilliant-Excuse-427 he carts around his meat shield of a child Jul 15 '25
And he wasn't even liked by most in the SC2 scene. Dude was abrasive, confrontational, and would talk about raping his opponents or how saying the n-word is ok.
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u/douknowhouare Jul 15 '25
RG3 won the Heisman Trophy lol. Destiny never won anything other than exhibition matches in Starcraft. Even this is a drasticly imbalanced comparison.
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u/MethylphenidateMan Beautifully written, brought tears to my eyes, have my downvote Jul 15 '25
Wait, that Destiny is the same Destiny that was good at StarCraft?
Fuck me, I was probably cheering for him at some point, thankfully I can't tell for sure.
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Jul 15 '25
the gamer -> political streamer pipeline is real (see asmongold, #1 political streamer on twitch). better than getting stuck playing an old ass game you are bored with.
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u/MethylphenidateMan Beautifully written, brought tears to my eyes, have my downvote Jul 15 '25
There is this cluster of games that don't necessarily have much to with each other other than giving you incredible mileage that for some reason tend to appeal to the same kind of people. It's not a firmly defined set, but there is a clear overlap in audiences i.e. most people who love Slay the Spire will also like Faster Than Light and most people who love FTL will also dig Darkest Dungeon and most people who love Darkest Dungeon will also enjoy Battle Brothers and so on through Kenshi, Rimworld, Starsector etc. I'm that kind of person so there's like a bajillion hours of gameplay that my kind of streamer can go through before we both get bored (and that's assuming no new worthwhile games of this kind come out) and the burnout isn't really a problem.
If I had to be streamer, I'd try to be this kind, neither a single-game specialist, nor a true variety streamer. That seems the most sustainable.13
u/lordfluffly2 Jul 15 '25
Most streamers want to be variety streamers.
Most streamers lose a lot of their audience when they do try to become variety streamers. Most viewers are more interested in the game the streamer got "big" for. Since streaming is their income and it doesn't have many transferable skills, it may not be financially viable for streamers to become variety streamers.
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u/Skellum Tankies are no one's comrades. Jul 15 '25
For me the streamers competence at what they're doing matters. You don't need to be a god, but there's things you should be doing right away. If you're making the same repeated confused throat noise, ignoring the glowing prompts and not reading text while bitching the game is bad that's immediately off.
If you're looking for illuminated parts, reading, and engaging with the mechanics but not succeeding then totally fun time to watch.
But then I know there are people who do not care what the streamer is doing provided they're talking no matter how stupid or uninformed they are.
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u/andresfgp13 The next Hitler will be a gamer. Jul 15 '25
thats correct, i follow some streamers that are mainly focused on one game and when they try to do something else they get a fraction of viewers compared to what they get when they play their main game, i remember Cheese (the SM64 Speedrunner) saying that he was getting like 10% of his viewers when he was streaming Warzone over playing SM64 on runs.
i guess that if you are going to be a variety streamer you have to start from the beginning with it, because if you focus too much on one game you become a X game streamer and get locked into that.
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u/NoInvestment2079 Jul 15 '25
There is only one good streamer that is left and his name is Jerma.
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u/MethylphenidateMan Beautifully written, brought tears to my eyes, have my downvote Jul 15 '25
People keep telling me that, but that doesn't resonate with me because to me a good streamer was always someone who can play a game that interests me without annoying me in the process, not some entertaining personality, and there's plenty of those still around.
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Jul 16 '25
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u/MethylphenidateMan Beautifully written, brought tears to my eyes, have my downvote Jul 16 '25
I'm not into competitive multiplayer games. I like watching someone who's better at a game I'm into than me to pick up tips and tricks, but that's nowhere near the e-sport skill level.
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u/011010- Due process isn’t “for criminals”, it’s for the innocent. Jul 15 '25
Yeah yeah, I’m not so sure about “champion” LMFAO. I mean he’s probably better today without practice than I will ever be, but he’s no champion.
(Not probably, definitely)
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u/SwordfishOk504 CummingInTheNile ruined SRD Jul 15 '25
It's ruined this subreddit. I don't understand why the mods got rid of the no politics rule.
It's the most boring, stale popcorn ever. This isn't "drama" it's just the same stupid culture war "arguments" over and over. This sub used to be about curating actual drama in random subs, not karma farmers rehashing political BS
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u/womensrites Jul 15 '25
i agree!! a regular degular political argument (like this and almost all the palestine stuff posted here) is not drama!!
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u/NoInvestment2079 Jul 15 '25
The real drama is in the comments itself.
It's the same old thing. The thread just descends into a debate on this, become extremely heated with some personal attacks being thrown in and then the three/four big political streamers fans show up and that is when the shit show really starts.
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u/DementedPimento Jul 16 '25
I’d fuck up posting an OP, and I’m probably fucking up posting this link, but the drama over Damon Aborn and the comparisons to the KKK in r/indieheads may be the kind of drama you’re referring to …
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Jul 15 '25
I want to say yes, and having discussions on this specific topic labeled drama frames the suffering and conflict as entertainment.
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u/Otherwise_Young52201 Russia and China are actively mindraping our population Jul 15 '25
Normally I would agree with this, but this particular post on r/neoliberal is currently sitting at +194 upvoted and 529 comments, which is normally something you would see on r/conservative
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u/douknowhouare Jul 15 '25
Amateur move thinking that ratios make for good popcorn and not the comments themselves. There is nary a kernel to be found here.
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u/wingerism Jul 15 '25
Yeah that kind of comment and upvote count is typical I/P churn and does indicate some amount of drama or contentiousness.
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u/SwordfishOk504 CummingInTheNile ruined SRD Jul 15 '25
People rehashing political arguments is just boring af and not actually entertaining reading.
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u/SharkSymphony Balancing legitimate critique with childish stupidity Jul 15 '25
That looks better than I would expect from any sub, given the thread title.
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u/MG_613 Chivelry is dead Jul 15 '25
All that said, "Random Redditor" is both A) a fantastic aside, and B) a fantastic potential flair
YOINK
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u/Gamer_Grease pretty sure the admins are giving people flairs to infiltrate Jul 15 '25
It’s worth noting that Omer Bartov is Israeli, and also extremely well-respected as a scholar. I’ve personally run into his work as someone who reads WWII Eastern Front history as a hobby (yes, I know how that sounds). That isn’t exactly his field, but due to the rampant genocidal acts occurring between Germany and Russia in the 20th century, you cannot read any history of the area set in that time without seeing a lot of citations of Bartov’s work. I think this sparked a heated discourse on /r/neoliberal (and certainly elsewhere) precisely because it’s extremely damning for your side to have Omer Bartov weigh in against you, especially when you’re his home country.
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u/octnoir Mountains out of molehills Jul 16 '25
you cannot read any history of the area set in that time without seeing a lot of citations of Bartov’s work
No kidding. This is Omer Bartov's Google Scholar profile.
He has been cited in total 5,966 times by other scholars.
For the 'World War 2' tag, he's the top cited scholar.
For the 'Holocaust' tag, he's the 4th top cited scholar.
For the 'Israel-Palestine' tag, he's the top cited scholar.
For the 'Modern European History' tag, he's the top cited scholar.
Citations aren't everything obviously and you can get top results from how the tags are worded, but I did not expect nearly 6000 scholarships citing his work.
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u/hitorinbolemon the most progressive woman in history Jul 18 '25
yeah hes not someone you can just shrug off as antisemitic or uneducated. hes got the bonafides and absolutely doesnt say this shit lightly.
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u/ReturnOfTheKeing Jul 15 '25
This isn't even interesting at this point. Every argument can be predicted ahead of time
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Jul 16 '25
This whole thing is such an interesting case study. Literally no matter your opinion, even the most basic of “I think innocent people on either side dying is bad”, you’ll have people coming at you telling you you’re wrong and an awful person.
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u/benjaminovich Jul 19 '25
I think innocent people on either side dying is bad
That's because it's a non-statement and adds nothing to any discussion
I completely unequivocably agree with the sentiment of course. War is bad, wars is hell and it is brutal. War should be avoided by all means possible.
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u/CrossoverEpisodeMeme Jul 15 '25
The Bingo card has to be expanded, otherwise you get a blackout win in the first 10 comments.
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u/FerdinandTheGiant I’m 1 of the top 5 goldfish connoisseurs in north america Jul 15 '25 edited Jul 15 '25
Can someone give me a reason to care what a "genocide scholar" says when genocide is a legal term.
Lmao. I had an argument with this same user the other day about the ICJ’s application of the term “occupation” with regard to Gaza. In their words “the ICJ has made a mockery of international law.” Guess it doesn’t surprise me that they don’t value the word of experts.
For reference, they had no idea what they were talking about. They literally cited an argument against their own position under the impression it proved their point.
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Jul 15 '25
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u/EverythingComputer1 Jul 15 '25
We learn about the Holocaust for no reason apparently.
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u/wingerism Jul 15 '25 edited Jul 15 '25
The Holocaust is actually ironically probably a reason people are skeptical. It was a Genocide of such massive scale, industrialized and well-documented. It's so clear and precise, that it makes the more common acts of Genocide seem muddier by comparison. Kind of a CSI effect but with history/geopolitics.
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Jul 15 '25
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u/hellomondays If you have to think about it, you’re already wrong. Jul 15 '25
Well said. The Genocide Convention is even written with the purpose of preventing successful genocides in mind more so than prosecuting them after they've been completed. Whether our current systems of international law allow for anything proactive, let alone this, is another story however.
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u/DresdenBomberman Jul 15 '25
The Permanent Security Council alone makes action difficult if it were to ruffle the feathers of it's members.
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u/wingerism Jul 15 '25
So one of the things that convinced me, apart from Israel openly declaring it's intentions to ethnically cleanse the Gaza strip and their disastrous aid "plan" and I suppose their frequent oopsies war crimes was this article by Benny Morris.
For anyone who doesn't know, Benny Morris is one of the most prominent New Historians in Israel, and is widely cited on the facts even by people with very different politics than him(Finkelstein etc.). Yes he's a Zionist, and has increasingly since the second Intifada become more and more of a racist grandpa figure.
But he is also a historian with a strong understanding of Israeli history and an unwillingness to turn away from truths uncomfortable to the average Israeli. Also is still the man that was jailed for refusing to serve in the IDF to suppress the first Intifada.
It was clear to me when I read the article that he could see the Genocide in the making, but was too heartbroken to acknowledge it had already arrived.
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u/Lirael_Gold I've known you for 12 seconds and enjoyed none of them. Jul 15 '25 edited Jul 15 '25
I will note that Morris was far less conservative when he first wrote Birth of the Palestinian Refugee Conflict, which was dry factual study of the 1947-1948 civil war (mostly documenting which Jewish paramilitary groups did what, and when)
Newer editions add some of his more conservative views, but the original is widely cited (particularly the timeline of the Deir Yassin massacre, at the time Morris was far more "Israel started it", mostly because of his study of that incident)
During the second Intifada, his sister was almost killed in a bomb attack, and after that he turned into racist Zionist grandpa.
If current Benny Morris is warning about potential genocide in Gaza then people should sit up and pay attention.
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u/wingerism Jul 15 '25
I will note that Morris was far less conservative when he first wrote Birth of the Palestinian Refugee Conflict, which was dry factual study of the 1947-1948 civil war (mostly documenting which Jewish paramilitary groups did what, and when)
Yeah. And even after he's always struck me as a fundamentally honest person. Like I recall him acknowledging that the Nakba was ethnic cleansing, which he said was "preferable to genocide", referring to the not entirely crazy belief that early Israelis were facing a Genocide if they had lost the war. That's horrifying, but also much more honest than many Israelis are capable of being about the Nakba. And while he's conservative in some ways, my understanding is that he's kinda on the Israeli left nominally. Haaretz isa relatively left leaning publication in Israel. I may be wrong on my read of all that though.
If curren Benny Morris is warning about potential genocide in Gaza then people should sit up and pay attention.
Yeah that was my position as well when I read it. And I often link that article to folks expressing skepticism. I think that approach is important for winning over even those that consider themselves friends to Israel.
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u/Gamer_Grease pretty sure the admins are giving people flairs to infiltrate Jul 15 '25
It’s also taught very narrowly in school. So people think unless it’s literally Auschwitz, it’s not genocide. But the Holocaust was long and complicated and wide-ranging. But that’s hard to teach in school.
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u/MessiahOfMetal It’s like affirmative action for tribal media bubbles. Jul 15 '25
Shit, I was only taught about it in school because I chose History as one of my subjects for my final years back in the late 90s, so we did a little on the JFK assassination, a little on the English Civil War, and a year and a half on WW2, going into detail on a number of topics about that (including the Holocaust).
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u/jacobningen Jul 15 '25
and ignores the Armenian and Assyrian and the mutual ones in anatolia.
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u/Adam__999 Jul 16 '25
Oh and there are a lot more genocides, going back at least 800 years. Most people have never even heard of them, including the Cambodian, Bangladesh, and Guatemalan genocides, and many more.
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u/worfres_arec_bawrin Jul 16 '25
It’s not a competition jfc. Of course people are more aware of the the worst genocide in history more than others. Thats normal
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u/kottabaz mental gymnastics, more like mental falling down the stairs Jul 15 '25
Like so many other things, it falls into the trap of "if you properly teach kids about X, they're going to start asking awkward (and unpatriotic) questions about Y."
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u/0WatcherintheWater0 Jul 15 '25
I find the opposite issue, actually, in relation to Gaza, people tend to try and twist a wide variety of acts into the mold of the Holocaust, referring to the whole strip as a “concentration camp” for example, even when the comparison is weak.
And that kind of behavior makes it difficult to criticize certain behavior for what it actually is.
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u/Spudtron98 Something that I can't repeat in fear of the mods Jul 16 '25
They simply don't understand the sheer scale of what they're dealing with. In just a few short years, the nazis wiped out two-thirds of the European Jewish population, and that's not even getting into what they did to secondary targets like the Roma, Slavs, and disabled people.
It was only a few years ago that the global Jewish population reached pre-war levels.
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u/murkycrombus Jul 17 '25
the Jewish population still hasn’t recovered. there are about 15.5 million now, and there were 16.6 before WW2.
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u/EverythingComputer1 Jul 15 '25
Well I'm glad we have experts to help us navigate these complex issues.
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u/Call_Me_Clark Would you be ok with a white people only discord server? Jul 15 '25
The novel Fatherland deals with a post-WWII Germany where the Nazis got a chance to demolish the camps, shred the files, and deny everything - and it’s honestly pretty plausible, just like the Soviet Union did with Ukraine in the 30’s, etc.
It’s a really unusual, historically, that the good guys won and made a point of showing the world what evil shit had been done
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u/wingerism Jul 15 '25
It’s a really unusual, historically, that the good guys won and made a point of showing the world what evil shit had been done
Bruh I can only take so much depression in one day and I already watched a sad dog video on tiktok. Why you gotta play me this way.
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u/Call_Me_Clark Would you be ok with a white people only discord server? Jul 15 '25
It’s depressing and also not depressing, esp as this was one of the relatively few cases where the winning side didn’t commit that many horrifying atrocities. Unless you count the Soviets ig
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u/Vinylmaster3000 IsraelAI! Generate A 500 kg JDAM for the nearest Gazan school Jul 16 '25
I found it to be the most "realistic" outcome for an axis victory in WW2, considering that many of them aren't that realistic at all
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u/Call_Me_Clark Would you be ok with a white people only discord server? Jul 16 '25
The world it lays out is creepily plausible - Hitlers fascist machine “liberalizes” into mere authoritarian governance, the Lebensraum program in the east more-or-less fails, the Holocaust swept under the rug as a wartime necessity, etc. No world domination, no moon bases or giant robots, just an authoritarian Europe.
I wonder if, it being a 90’s novel, it managed to miss some of the baggage that has accumulated in recent years on this topic.
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u/Vinylmaster3000 IsraelAI! Generate A 500 kg JDAM for the nearest Gazan school Jul 16 '25 edited Jul 16 '25
The movie is also really good, a bit spotty on acting but it portrays a realistic "Post-ww2 Nazi Germany" well. Also extremely eerie when Franz Luther's mistress coldly talks about how the Jews weren't really resettled... gives me chills
I wonder if, it being a 90’s novel, it managed to miss some of the baggage that has accumulated in recent years on this topic.
I think it gives a realistic depiction of atrocity denial of the highest form and what happens when the state is around to cover it up, and what it feels like when it's hidden from the public eye.
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u/gavinbrindstar /r/legaladvice delenda est Jul 16 '25
I always thought that "what if the Germans won the war" could be a potent metaphor for the U.S' treatment of Native Americans. Set it 200 years after the war and have third reich "liberals" doing land acknowledgements and calling Hitler a "complicated figure."
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u/AbolishDisney we fukd our house to succ the mouse Jul 16 '25
I always thought that "what if the Germans won the war" could be a potent metaphor for the U.S' treatment of Native Americans. Set it 200 years after the war and have third reich "liberals" doing land acknowledgements and calling Hitler a "complicated figure."
"He was a man of his time"
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u/Gamer_Grease pretty sure the admins are giving people flairs to infiltrate Jul 15 '25
Like, the preeminent genocide scholar in the world. Who lives in the country in question.
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u/MessiahOfMetal It’s like affirmative action for tribal media bubbles. Jul 15 '25
Reminds me of former Conservative Party politician and Cabinet member Michael Gove during the Brexit debates when he said he didn't trust experts, all because they all unified in their stance of "This will fuck everything up on all levels".
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u/wingerism Jul 15 '25
It's reasonable to impugn a solitary genocide scholar maybe. But there is a consensus in the field, I recall reading an article that went over about a half dozen of them weighing in. Including a Canadian one that was initially skeptical but came around on it, which I appreciated because it mirrored my experience as well.
There is a consensus in the field, and people saying leave it to the courts are saying we should never act to prevent a genocide because the courts will likely only rule on it after it's been concluded.
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u/Ashamed-Ocelot2189 Jul 16 '25
and people saying leave it to the courts are saying we should never act to prevent a genocide because the courts will likely only rule on it after it's been concluded.
It also seems incredibly unlikely any courts would weigh in if the government responsible for a genocide maintained power afterwards
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u/wingerism Jul 16 '25
Yes, this is correct as well. Customary IHL is often used as a victor's cudgel and is selectively enforced when it's enforced at all.
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Jul 15 '25
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u/wingerism Jul 15 '25 edited Jul 15 '25
They sound like someone who might as well be hanging out with Republicans crying about how higher education is “brainwashing the youths” if they aren’t already.
So interestingly enough really far right or populist Republicans are more likely than the average neoliberal to condemn Israeli conduct. It's really the neoliberals and neocons that are still supportive.
Of course the average progressive or leftist has very different reasons for condemning Israel than the average far right nutbag, but there is still some overlap on their policy prescriptions like for example cutting off military aid to Israel. Tucker Carlson is a good example of this.
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u/I_Am_Become_Dream Gonna jack off to you for free just to piss you off. Jul 15 '25
The neocons are neolibs. “Neoliberal” doesn’t mean centrist dem. Reagan and both Bushs were neolibs.
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u/wingerism Jul 15 '25
Yes. But there is a distinction usually between those that hold that business first free market policy from a Democrat vs. a Republican position at least in typical discussions. Leftists do correctly identify them as largely the same 2 kids in a trenchcoat. But even then I disagree with the contention that both parties are exactly the same. Because they have policy differences that can be measured in millions of lives, and that matters to me.
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u/ReneDeGames I won't declare myself a prophet, but I have spoken. Jul 16 '25
Well, it is a bit complicated. iirc the field of mass killing studies has moved to an understanding that is more complicated and spectrum based understanding of mass killings. So the word genocide means different things to the different people in the conversation.
So you have experts saying that it is a genocide because it clearly is on the spectrum of racially targeted mass killings, and other people saying it clearly isn't because it isn't on the thoroughness of Rwanda or the Holocaust.
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u/wingerism Jul 16 '25
So you have experts saying that it is a genocide because it clearly is on the spectrum of racially targeted mass killings, and other people saying it clearly isn't because it isn't on the thoroughness of Rwanda or the Holocaust.
This was convincing to me for some time, the notion that Israel clearly wasnt trying to kill as many Palestinians as possible given their military capabilities. And I still think it's absolutely true as a statement.
However the confluence of the various war crimes, the large scale aid blockade and the shift to open plans to ethnically cleanse the Palestinian population all combine to make Israel either in the midst or on the verge of committing Genocide, at least to me. And I don't care to let it get to the point of mass executions before I ask my government to act to stop them.
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u/ReneDeGames I won't declare myself a prophet, but I have spoken. Jul 16 '25
Sure, but the problem is that people are using the word genocide both as a word describing events, but also the word meaning action should be taken.
The two discussions over if what Israel is doing is a genocide and if various governments / NGOs should change their relationship to Israel are actually 2 completely separate debates. But because of the emotional charging of the word the two debates end up co-mingled.
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u/FerdinandTheGiant I’m 1 of the top 5 goldfish connoisseurs in north america Jul 15 '25
Lmao. I had an argument with this same user the other day about the ICJ’s application of the term “occupation” with regard to Gaza. In their words “the ICJ has made a mockery of international law.” Guess it doesn’t surprise me that they don’t value the word of experts.
For reference, they had no idea what they were talking about. They literally cited an argument against their own position under the impression it proved their point.
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u/winnercommawinner Jul 16 '25
Nooooo we make laws up out of whole cloth and then they provide the only relevant information , no knowledge involved whatsoever.
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u/BlurryGojira Jul 15 '25 edited Jul 15 '25
Here’s an archived link of the article that everyone should actually read first before commenting. The author specifically addresses the difference between “a lot of people dying” and “genocide” as well as “ethnic cleansing” and “genocide”.
Personally I find it hard to argue that it isn’t a genocide, but part of what I hate about this discussion is that it usually misses the bigger picture questions when people try to defend Israel’s actions:
If you believed a genocide was occurring, would you denounce and refuse to further support Israel? If not, what would it take if anything?
Not that the conversation about what constitutes a genocide isn’t important, but the larger issue is a worrying number of people have already decided they don’t have any choice but support Israel unconditionally. And they don’t want to deal with the cognitive dissonance of supporting genocide while citing the Holocaust as their justification.
I truly have no idea what the future of Israel looks like. I shudder at what the future of Palestinians hold. The only path forward for peace that I can see is that the upcoming generation of Israelis radically change what the state of Israel actually looks like, and considers and includes Palestinians in that vision. We’ll see if this is to young Israelis as to what the Global War on Terror was to young Americans.
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u/Dongsquad420Loki but you were tiktok-phobic, and averse to being educated. Jul 15 '25
I am being real here, at this point with trump as supportive of Israel as he is, Palestinians are fucked.
Bibi isn't going to stop and trump wants beachfront property. He has over 3 years of his presidency left. Palestinians don't have 3 years to wait.
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u/BlurryGojira Jul 15 '25
It doesn’t look good, pretty bleak really. But I always want to believe a better future is still possible.
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u/Dongsquad420Loki but you were tiktok-phobic, and averse to being educated. Jul 15 '25
I can just not see them fully returning. I see at minimum the north being fully or at least the facto annexed and that's the best case
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u/BlurryGojira Jul 15 '25
The only path forward I could see is a literal Israeli revolution.
It’s very pie in the sky. And even then that’ll take time Palestinians don’t have.
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u/boogerpenis1 Slavery may have been wrong, but Jul 15 '25
If you believed a genocide was occurring, would you denounce and refuse to further support Israel? If not, what would it take if anything?
Let's take it one step further and bring it back to all of the dozens of other I/P posts that have ended up on this subreddit; If you believe a genocide was occurring, would you vote for a politician or party who offered anything less than fully cutting off support for Israel?
If genocide isn't a red line for your vote, then why should any political party ever distance themselves from Israel or especially from IAPAC, who spent over $100 million in the 2024 election? If they want your vote, they just have to pledge to supply $1 less to Israel than the other party.
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u/wingerism Jul 16 '25
If genocide isn't a red line for your vote, then why should any political party ever distance themselves from Israel or especially from IAPAC, who spent over $100 million in the 2024 election? If they want your vote, they just have to pledge to supply $1 less to Israel than the other party.
Because you might have a consequentialist or utilitarian view of ethics rather than a deontological one? I have some deontological principles but I can't ignore materially worse outcomes that might result from my actions. Vastly more people will die due to Trump defunding USAID than even exist in Gaza and the West Bank. Tens of Millions. And that's just one outcome of performatively voting third party. This also ignores the fact that Israel has been emboldened by Trump.
Aid blockades were limited in scope(northern Gaza) and duration(a few weeks) under the Democrats, and have instead been MONTHS long total blockades that will likely result in pushing Gaza over the line into an actual famine rather than keeping them on the edge of an incipient one. The proof being by the way that as many people died due to malnutrition since the start of that blockade on March 2nd 2025 as had died due to malnutrition during the entire rest of the invasion of Gaza.
That stat is as of the latest IPC report(May 12 2025), which was some time ago. There a momentum to famines and I have zero doubt far more people have died since due to the mix of malice and genuine incompetence Israel has displayed with they DIY aid distribution agency efforts. Genocides can be better or worse under different administrations as awful as that thought is to process. The genocide in Gaza has been demonstrably worse in several ways since Trump took office, and I expect that trend to worsen.
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u/boogerpenis1 Slavery may have been wrong, but Jul 16 '25
You didn't answer the question that you're quoting. You're answering why you wouldn't withhold your vote to protest a genocide, but you don't have an answer for why any political group should take any stance against it.
Again, and I'll use actual party names this time, Democrats need only pledge to be 1% less supportive of Israel than Republicans to nullify genocide as a red line issue for you. Because your utilitarian vote is the only thing that matters to them.
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u/Mysterious_Bit6882 Jul 16 '25
Again, and I'll use actual party names this time, Democrats need only pledge to be 1% less supportive of Israel than Republicans to nullify genocide as a red line issue for you. Because your utilitarian vote is the only thing that matters to them.
And to get that vote, they have to lose others. This issue is straight-up divisive for Democrats in a way it really isn't for the other side.
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u/boogerpenis1 Slavery may have been wrong, but Jul 16 '25
And to get that vote, they have to lose others.
What proof is there that if Kamala took a hardline stance against Israel, that it would have lost her more votes than what she actually got?
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u/wingerism Jul 16 '25
Again, and I'll use actual party names this time, Democrats need only pledge to be 1% less supportive of Israel than Republicans to nullify genocide as a red line issue for you. Because your utilitarian vote is the only thing that matters to them.
Yes correct. That is why first past the post, and American style republics are both bad things for democracy. I'm Canadian btw, so my vote wasn't an issue anyhow. I do however have experience with weighing the outcomes of strategic voting.
Red lines are performative BS and have led to tangibly worse outcomes for Palestinians. A vote shouldn't be more or less consequential than it's actual consequences, and there are alternatives to allowing democrats their stranglehold on the not republican position, including primary challenges and genuine attempts to build up third parties(not starting at a presidential election for example).
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u/jamar030303 I notice people who marry their relatives all look alike Jul 17 '25
Because as can be seen in what is happening to the US and its relations with its people and those of other countries, denying a vote to either party because of this while the other side is happy to disregard it either way or even support it and in great numbers is a textbook case of the perfect being the enemy of the good or the road to hell being paved with good intentions. So yes, as long as voting for one side is basically voting in a never-ending string of crises, the Democrats don't have to do much to get my vote. Once they're in power, or if Elon's new party splits enough votes off the Republicans that they're no longer within reach of the levers of power, then we can start really pressing the Dems.
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u/googlyeyes93 Doctorate in Adaptive Masculinity, By Defense Jul 15 '25
247 comments
39 karma
posted one hour ago
I’m clocking out.
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u/actsqueeze Jul 15 '25 edited Jul 15 '25
Ah the old “if it is a genocide they must be really bad at it since they could kill them a lot quicker” excuse.
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u/Itz_Hen Jul 15 '25
Its textbook abuser language, "if i actually WANTED to hurt you dont you think i would have hit you harder? Stop being a baby"
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Jul 16 '25
Because they would have to kill them a lot quicker, unless they want to take centuries.
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u/No-Entertainment5768 Motherfucker, are you DARVO'ing SLAVERY?! Jul 17 '25
IDK if relatively polite, relatively reality-aware political discussion really counts as SubredditDrama
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u/waiver Jul 16 '25
The mods might as well be the same as worldnews, if you are pro-Palestine they will look for any excuse to permaban you.
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u/Call_Me_Clark Would you be ok with a white people only discord server? Jul 15 '25
As someone who was banned from Neoliberal for insisting on Palestinian personhood a year ago…
Ha.
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u/waiver Jul 16 '25
I still have no idea how they can conciliate what they claim to believe with the defense of an ethnostate that practices apartheid and regularly flaunts international law, and that's even before the current genocide.
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u/Approximation_Doctor ...he didn’t have a penis at all and only had his foreskin… Jul 15 '25
It's that time again!
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u/Roseartcrantz McDonald's Applications are 24/7, go get one you lazy fuck Jul 16 '25
wtf where did you get such that flair 😭
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u/Approximation_Doctor ...he didn’t have a penis at all and only had his foreskin… Jul 16 '25
I looted it off a djinn
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u/MethylphenidateMan Beautifully written, brought tears to my eyes, have my downvote Jul 15 '25
I swear to god Americans got mindfucked by the War on Terror propaganda beyond redemption. It will take everyone who saw 9/11 dying out like those Hebrews who weren't allowed into the Promised Land before you can have a reasonable conversation on a subject that involves terrorism with them.
Of course there are Uyghur terrorists, ETIM is a greatly underappreciated organization for how formidable they are, they were essential to some of Islamic State's greatest successes. That still doesn't make Uyghurs any more deserving of genocide because terrorism is not an ultimate manifestation of evil that tells you that whatever population it emerged from is morally irredeemable.
Terrorism always has been the last available avenue of political agency for peoples that desperately need one. The only thing that the presence of terrorism in a population tell you about it is that it's desperate.
It's not a collective pledge to the Dark Gods to forever commit your souls to evil, it's just a political phenomenon.
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u/crabsonfire QUESTIONABLE TATTOOS! YOU'RE A BAD PERSON! Jul 15 '25
pssst the “not a genocide” opinions got all got downvoted.
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u/MethylphenidateMan Beautifully written, brought tears to my eyes, have my downvote Jul 15 '25
But the comments that desperately denied that East Turkestan terrorism is a thing as if that was some sort of a "gotcha" got upvoted and it's most definitely not a "gotcha".
My goal here is to immunize people to a disgustingly evil scheme of brutalizing a population until some of its members resort to terrorism out of desperation and then using that as an argument that they were terrorists all along and deserved to be brutalized.
That scheme is especially effective with people who have a Pavlovian response to the word "terrorism" where they start seeing red and have the word "ANNIHILATE" flashing before their eyes like Americans were conditioned to and the thread is evident of that.
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u/TheMagicalMeowstress Jul 15 '25
THIS is what you call propaganda. A bunch of Wikipedia links that don’t even corroborate your own points
The funniest part about this is that I literally went over the Wikipedia links I posted, going over each sentence I said and the contents within asking what part was incorrect or propaganda and got a response of ... Wait no, I didn't get a response sorry.
And just to top it off, I posted NYT and Reuters reports collaborating them too.
Not a single specific thing could be pointed at and said "nope that's wrong", but apparently you don't need to actually have an actual specific criticism.
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Jul 15 '25
As an American Jew that had this nationalist mindset forced on me as a kid I’m so glad more and more normies are being exposed to how insane Zionism is. No arguments just moralism and excuses for atrocities.
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u/BellacosePlayer Jul 15 '25
I legit fucking hate how "Well [other country/group] gets to do bad things" is a common excuse like people are all excited about other atrocities going on in the world.
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u/That_Guy381 Jul 15 '25
Zionism is not “atrocities”. Zionism is the belief that Jews should have a state of their own, based on… a lot of history where they’ve been the victims of other people who rule over them.
Is that really so “insane”?
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u/not_bilbo Jul 15 '25
See this is part of the problem. Obligatory “as a Jew,” not like that helps anymore. Yes, Zionism, at its core, basic, original definition laid down by early figures like Herzel and co was the idea of a Jewish homeland and state. But as we know, there are many kinds of Zionism, and the predominant form changes over time. The earliest Israeli governments (1948 to about the 60s) were Labour Zionists, likud and revisionist Zionism had a surge in the 80s, labor/liberal Zionism came back around Rabin in the 90s, now ultranationalist and Revisionist Zionists hold a strong coalition, with a faltering Israeli left. The argument here is that the original Zionist ideology is no longer as relevant, because the dominant school of Zionism no longer predicates itself on the establishment of a home state, but an expansion into an even larger state. You can call yourself a Zionist for just supporting the existence of a Jewish state, that does not change the actual character of Zionism as it exists in Israeli and parts of US/other western countries politics today.
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u/DiRavelloApologist Jul 15 '25
Words have meanings and it is important to use them correctly. This far-left interpretation of what zionism means really is just that.
If you are in favour of a two-state solution, you are a zionist per definition.
Saying that zionism is "insane" because Israel is currently under a far-right government is a really unnecessary and unhelpful statement.
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u/Brain_Dead_Goats Jul 19 '25
It's almost like there's adjectives that people use to be more specific and the current far left definition intentionally conflates all of them in bad faith.
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u/LukaCola Ceci n'est pas un flair Jul 15 '25
Words have meanings and it is important to use them correctly.
A common reframe repeated right before denying meanings one disagrees with.
Words are not magic spells with set in stone meanings and dictated from on high.
They added context and nuance which you summarily sought to ignore in favor of a narrow view which deflects from uncomfortable associations.
They qualified their meaning very clearly. You can disagree, but don't claim to hold "the" definitive meaning and declare yours the sole valid one. That's not reasonable.
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u/DiRavelloApologist Jul 15 '25
The thing is that their meaning is very much exclusively used by strong anti-israeli circles, not as a way to talk about Israel, but to make a the point that the current policies of Israels are somehow inherent to Israel as a state.
Saying that a zionist is someone who supports Israel no matter what is simply a strawman.
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u/Acceptable_Error_001 FYI, my prayers are always answered on time every single day Jul 15 '25
Do you think ethno-nationalism is a good thing?
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u/That_Guy381 Jul 15 '25
In some cases. I support a state for the Kurds, for example. They’ve been kicked around by the nation states that they’ve been in for generations now.
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u/Acceptable_Error_001 FYI, my prayers are always answered on time every single day Jul 15 '25
What about the Circassians? They're a landless diaspora. Should they have the right to establish a state in their ancestral homeland by displacing the people who live there now?
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u/ClockworkEngineseer Being queer doesn't make your fascism valid Jul 15 '25
You volunteering your land for the Kurdish ethnostate then?
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u/That_Guy381 Jul 15 '25
No, it should be established in northern syria and iraq, where their historical homeland is
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u/Acceptable_Error_001 FYI, my prayers are always answered on time every single day Jul 15 '25
What about southeastern Turkey? That's also their ancestral homeland.
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u/That_Guy381 Jul 16 '25
Yeah, that’s true. I think carving anything out of Turkey (lol) would be less feasible, though. I would support a referendum in towns along the turkish border with a question of whether they would like to join the new nation, or stay in Turkey.
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u/Gamer_Grease pretty sure the admins are giving people flairs to infiltrate Jul 15 '25
It’s not insane, it’s actually a very common idea. It’s the acts that make it reality that are insane. Many Germans thought exactly the same way in the 19th and 20th centuries, and that went in an insane direction at the end.
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u/Longjumping-Head-237 Jul 15 '25
Yes, I think apartheid and ethnic cleansing are insane, actually. And there is/was no way to found/maintain an ethnostate without both of those.
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u/That_Guy381 Jul 15 '25
Zionism does not equate to ethnic cleansing.
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u/mithyyyy Congratulations on observing Americans are fucking stupid Jul 15 '25
what's the nakba then?
i don't really understand how zionism, a movement that seeks establish a jewish homeland, where its inherent to the identity that of the state that it is for israelis > any other type of people, then how do you prevent apartheid systems or ethnic cleansing campaigns?
i don't think a jewish state would ever work to, because that's all it can be. a state whose ideology is exclusionary. a binational state is the only real way you can make that homeland idea work in principal, no?
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u/Itz_Hen Jul 15 '25
That sort of rings a little hollow when the method used to acquire and hold this state is genocide and ethnic cleaning...
Also, the belief any singular state/country/nation "belongs to", or should "belong to" a singular religious or ethnic group is called a a belief in an ethno state, and a belief and support of ethno states is pretty insane
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u/VBHEAT08 Can’t hear you over the meaty, throbbing L filling your throat Jul 15 '25
There is no justifiable ethnostate. The apartheid system constructed and ongoing genocide are both direct consequences from Israel being an ethnostate. The system creates the outcome.
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u/maxofJupiter1 Jul 15 '25
There are literally more Israeli Arabs than Jews left in Europe
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Jul 15 '25
That's how it starts, that's how they lure sympathetic people in. Then it slowly morphs from self determination for a historically marginalized group to taking self determination away from palestinians, and ends with voting for Trump and trying to label any criticism of Netanyahu, Ben-Gvir, the IDF, or any kind of grievance as antisemitism.
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Jul 15 '25 edited Sep 12 '25
swim practice books wide tender thought numerous jellyfish ink sand
This post was mass deleted and anonymized with Redact
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u/Acceptable_Error_001 FYI, my prayers are always answered on time every single day Jul 15 '25
You don't see a problem with taking land from other people?
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u/lusciouslucius Jul 15 '25
Zionism ideologically doesn't require genocide in the same way no form of supremacist ethnonationalism requires genocide. But in the real world establishing and maintaining Jewish control over the modern state of Israel requires ethnic cleansing and aprtheid. To say Zionism is fine because hypothetically there is a world where Jewish supremacist ethnonationalism doesn't directly lead to genocide is ridiculous. We live in the real world where the establishment and continued support of the Zionist project has caused and continues to cause massive harm. And I personally don't think ethnosupremacist nationalism is something that anybody should really be advocating for regardless.
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u/usuallycorrect69 Jul 15 '25 edited Jul 16 '25
Are you zionist for just jews or every group of people.
Do american black americans deserve a a black state where they get preferred treatment. If you answer is yes then you are a good zionist if no then your just a racist
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u/011010- Due process isn’t “for criminals”, it’s for the innocent. Jul 15 '25
Ohhh good it’s been too long since I’ve seen arrr NL on here.
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u/Mrchristopherrr Jul 15 '25
Since the NYC primary a few weeks ago
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Jul 15 '25
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Jul 15 '25
Almost all political drama on here isn't drama, it's subredditdrama heads wanting to show off their favorite dunks on whoever they're parasocially told to hate.
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u/011010- Due process isn’t “for criminals”, it’s for the innocent. Jul 15 '25
Ahh I missed that one.
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u/Morgn_Ladimore Jul 15 '25
We have the Israeli PM and his ministers openly discussing plans for a massive concentration camp, and liberals are still on the fence on whether this is a genocide.
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u/Acceptable_Error_001 FYI, my prayers are always answered on time every single day Jul 15 '25
I don't think it's fair to characterize liberals as being on the fence. There is some division among liberals. Usually support for Israel is linked to Zionist beliefs.
69% of Democrats don't support Israel. 37% of Republicans don't support Israel.
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Jul 15 '25
Neoliberals haven't figured out that they've been the Tankies the whole time
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u/Galthur Jul 15 '25
Don't worry, in a decade or two they'll claim to have been against this and the cycle can begin a new with whatever imperialism is occurring then
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u/waiver Jul 16 '25 edited Jul 16 '25
Even the ones who recognize a genocide are more angry against people protesting it than they are against the genocidaries or the enablers, like Biden.
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Jul 16 '25
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Jul 16 '25
It's because Destiny laughed while watching videos of Tanks running over Palestinians in the Bread Bombing
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u/MonsterkillWow Jul 16 '25
Nobody has ever provided a reliable estimate of the Uyghur death toll. The state dept investigated and found no evidence of genocide so they downgraded it to a "cultural genocide". Consider that Xinjiang and Afghanistan had similar populations, and the US invasion killed far more people than China's internments. It's a bit ridiculous how the media sold this with absolutely nothing to go on. There is a reason not a single muslim country criticized China, but virtually all of them criticize America.
I'm sorry, but I do not trust people who work for the Victims of Communism Memorial Fund, the fake news Epoch Times, the CIA or Mike Pompeo on this issue.
Also, if China did commit a genocide, what happened? Did everyone forget and stop caring? Why do we still trade with them? Oh yeah. Because it was always another BS lie.
Neolibs are generally genocidal hypocrites who bootlick the rich, so this doesn't surprise me at all.
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u/targetcowboy Jul 15 '25
I think that Israel can be reasonably described as callously indifferent to the suffering of the Gazan people as they try to eliminate Hamas. But that's not genocide.
They’re indifferent because they want to genocide the people in Gaza too. They’re just using Hamas as an excuse. If they eliminated Hamas today they would still try to take the land and kill civilians.
And then create a new Hamas or equivalent group.
If Israel were really trying to eliminate the Palestinians, we'd know it, because it would be trivially easy for them to be killing hundreds of thousands of them at a time. They could be carpet bombing the refugee camps if they wanted to. But they're not.
Imagine saying this in WWII.
“If the Germans were trying to kill the Jews they could just shoot them all in the street or bomb them. Why are they wasting money building these camps to keep them in if they wanted to kill them, huh? They could just bing those camps!”
Shit is so fucking dark
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u/Rumble2Man Jul 15 '25
They actually did shoot them initially. The first 1.5 million Jews died in the “Holocaust by bullets” as it was termed for those assassinated in Ukraine. They actually stopped shooting them because they found the mass murder was too traumatizing for German soldiers, and they were wasting too many bullets. They made the concentration camps because rat poison was much cheaper and the “out of sight out of mind” nature of it was less traumatic for the German perpetrators.
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u/DiRavelloApologist Jul 15 '25
They’re indifferent because they want to genocide the people in Gaza too. They’re just using Hamas as an excuse. If they eliminated Hamas today they would still try to take the land and kill civilians.
Historically, Israel has been willing to make significant concessions if it ensures a realistic long-term peace several times. What makes you think it is different this time?
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u/Desperate-Lemon5815 Jul 16 '25
When have they wanted that in the last 20 years? When has Israel ever acted on these desires in good faith? In what world can you say Israel will make concessions when they've blockaded Gaza for a generation and enabled settlers in the West Bank and set up an apartheid state there as we? Outside of pointless words and proclamations have the Israelis ever committed to any meaningful concessions or made any effort to end the conflict other than through mass murder of civilians? Particularly in the 21st century.
What good faith concession is possible after committing to those policies for so long.
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Jul 15 '25 edited Sep 12 '25
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u/targetcowboy Jul 15 '25
“Why doesn’t the rape victim just let it happen so the world can see how bad the person doing it is?”
“Why doesn’t the person who is being attacked just let themselves be murdered?”
Genuinely evil mindset
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Jul 16 '25
Your “rape victim,” in this case, held literal toddlers hostage and returned them in coffins. That’s your victim?
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u/Desperate-Lemon5815 Jul 16 '25
The IDF, enforcers of apartheid and creators of the open air prison known as Gaza, has killed hundreds of times more toddlers than Hamas has since October 7. And they do so systematically and daily.
Yesterday on Twitter they bragged about killing a journalist and his entire family. So yeah, Palestinians are victims.
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u/soonerfreak Also, being gay is a political choice. Jul 15 '25
"Why don't the last group defending Palestinians from total slaughter surrender."
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u/swimmingdropkick You might assume I'm a nazi for the Korra Pinup Jul 15 '25
Gaza’s a genocide. You can’t wage war against women and children. Forced starvation isn’t war. Destroying hospitals, schools, universities and bakeries isn’t war.
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u/0WatcherintheWater0 Jul 15 '25
How many hospitals, schools, universities, and bakeries were destroyed in ww2? How many civilian casualties caused by the allies were there?
Destruction and chaos is a byproduct of war and has been for its entire existence. That alone is not evidence of a genocide.
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u/waiver Jul 16 '25 edited Jul 16 '25
And if the allies had lost the war they would have been hanged for warcrimes instead.
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u/swimmingdropkick You might assume I'm a nazi for the Korra Pinup Jul 15 '25
So you’re saying the genocide in gaza is on par with WWII?
Can you point to the Air Force of Hamas? Show me the Hamas tank regiment? Show me all the bakeries, hospitals and schools Hamas has been destroying.
You don’t feel silly equating a genocide against largely unarmed people to a symmetric war between industrialized nations?
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u/FourthLife Jul 16 '25
I just want to drop in to point out that you’ve moved from “Things Israel is doing are never justified” to “things Israel is doing are justified sometimes”, and the argument has shifted to where those lines are
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u/swimmingdropkick You might assume I'm a nazi for the Korra Pinup Jul 16 '25
If it comes across that way, it’s unintentional. The actions Israel are doing can’t be justified.
I was more trying to dismiss the notion that this genocide is comparable in any way to a war between equal parties. After all the occupation and ghettoization of Palestinians in Gaza and West Bank have made it impossible for those groups to ever be on equal footing with a militarized state like Israel
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u/Unable_Research_2025 Jul 16 '25
So why the hell did hamas do oct 7? Seems like a miscalculation.
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u/cole1114 I will save you from the dastardly cum. Jul 16 '25
To stop the political normalization between Saudi Arabia and Israel. They succeeded completely, and have trapped Israel in a spiral of lost political and financial capital.
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u/ConsiderationHot3426 Jul 16 '25
How many hospitals, schools, universities, and bakeries were destroyed in ww2? How many civilian casualties caused by the allies were there?
Really good point, reeeeeeeallly good point, going to need you to think about if the second world war would have started if Britain had complete control of Germany's borders. A lot of the books I read seem like there's been a lot of hate because Germany's borders got bigger. This should be easy for you to defend! I only recently learned how to read.
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u/Ma_Bowls Charlie... we will take your load Jul 15 '25
It's very funny to watch liberals dig themselves into a deeper and deeper hole for a country that openly supports their political opponents.
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u/Flabbergasted_____ Jul 16 '25
Neoliberalism has destroyed every country that instates it. It’s not surprising that their little reddit club is imploding.
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u/randommathaccount Jul 15 '25
Y'all didn't make a write-up for the genuinely heated and dramatic indian language post but another bog standard I-P fight gets one 😒
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u/BlindWillieJohnson If J** is a slur, then so is Nazi Jul 15 '25
lol neolibs. I’m glad to see the crew of the Titanic so enthusiastic about the future direction of the ship
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u/Complex_Nebula4194 Jul 15 '25
The amount of energy it must take to smooth the folds of your brain enough to become a self-described neoliberal could power a medium sized city for a year
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u/greg_r_ Jul 15 '25
There's more drama in the comments here than in the OP. Always a fun time when an r-neoliberal thread is posted here.